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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

sparrowcar

Contact lost just before 0100 off the west coast of Achill island on a rescue mission.
Search in progress including all available ships and Rescue 115.

Hopefully a positive outcome to this.

Please keep replies civil, and respectful of the crew and their families.

Please do not speculate as to any cause unless you have a factual basis to do so (and can back it up with information released to the public).

There will be zero tolerance for troublemakers or those that choose to ignore these guidelines.

There are other moderator messages in the thread, as a result of issues that have arisen, and we will be less forgiving going forward, due to the ongoing sensitivity of this incident

As per normal boards guidance, any comments on moderation are off topic and should be addressed directly to mods or cmods by PM. Any part of posts which are off topic in such a manner may be edited or removed, with possible sanction. Non news posts will be moved to the parallel R116 Non news and discussion thread

Should any new reports, updates or news stories come out, posts which can be boiled down to "I Told You So" or other triumphalism about previous commentary will result in significant punishment.

Any threadbans will carry over to any replacement thread should this approach 10,000 posts

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faoiarvok

The IRCG S92s are fitted with EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) which scans below and in front of the aircraft using a radar to warn pilots that they are approaching terrain, even if the terrain is not recorded in the navigation database.

The EGPWS system uses a high resolution digital database within the navigation system of the aircraft and the current GPS position to confirm that the aircraft is not flying into danger, but unless the specification of EGPWS has changed in recent times, it is NOT radar based

My mistake, I misread the Skybrary page: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Terrain_Avoidance_and_Warning_System_(TAWS)

Gaoth Laidir

Irish Steve wrote: »

In passing, does Skydemon give a MSA for the area, as that may provide the answer, if the MSA is significantly above the height of the island, the (possibly wrong) assumption is that you won't be operating other than in VFR below MSA.

MSA is 2600 ft.

Irish Steve

siobhan08 wrote: »

I heard the debris are being brought to Gormanston for the investigation Would that be to the army base or is there somewhere else they could bring them ?

Just curious as it from near there

There is an Air Corps facility there, with suitable hangar space that can be used by AAIU to lay out the pieces as required

siobhan08

I heard the debris are being brought to Gormanston for the investigation Would that be to the army base or is there somewhere else they could bring them ?

Just curious as it from near there

greenspurs

<snip.> pm sent

Steve

Discodog wrote: »

If you are flying over the sea in bad visibility & you get a visual on the surface, on your way into land. Would you stay at height or safely descend under the cloudbase ? In other words do you follow your eyes or your instruments ? Plus a helicopter doesn't have the approach restrictions of a fixed wing. If necessary they can hover & literally look out of the door as they descend as is common on landing.

The key to this is why they were so close to Blackrock.

In the context of this thread, this is speculation so please feel free to ask the general question in a new thread. Not here.

Discodog

If you are flying over the sea in bad visibility & you get a visual on the surface, on your way into land. Would you stay at height or safely descend under the cloudbase ? In other words do you follow your eyes or your instruments ? Plus a helicopter doesn't have the approach restrictions of a fixed wing. If necessary they can hover & literally look out of the door as they descend as is common on landing.

The key to this is why they were so close to Blackrock.

Irish Steve

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Being aware that an island exists and knowing where you are in relation to it right now are two very different things. I already acknowledged that it is highly unlikely that they don't have it on their navigation suite, I was just highlighting that Skydemon, which is legally valid for flight, doesn't have it. I'm not sure why that scares you.

In passing, does Skydemon give a MSA for the area, as that may provide the answer, if the MSA is significantly above the height of the island, the (possibly wrong) assumption is that you won't be operating other than in VFR below MSA.

Gaoth Laidir

jmayo wrote: »

Are you seriously asking that question ?
All the SAR piliots are very much aware of that rocky island with the big bloody lighthouse on top of it and they don't rely on Sky Demon, Iphones, or Google for their navigation.

The fact someone is aware of Skydemon and yet thinks a professional SAR operation hasn't anything better scares me, most especially if they are a pilot.

Being aware that an island exists and knowing where you are in relation to it right now are two very different things. I already acknowledged that it is highly unlikely that they don't have it on their navigation suite, I was just highlighting that Skydemon, which is legally valid for flight, doesn't have it. I'm not sure why that scares you.

Irish Steve

I doubt there's any published procedures for Blacksod, as it's not as such a public facility.

In relation to the approach, post 425 earlier in the thread shows what is effectively a classic outbound, procedure turn and return for descent to Blacksod, and I would have expected them to have started the let down somewhere in the vicinity of Blackrock, to arrive at their base altitude about a mile before the coast, to give time to transition to full visual flying, albeit that all their instrument systems would have been monitoring their position with an accuracy that most pilots can only dream of.

There are possible scenarios here, but in the absence of better information, speculation about them is inappropriate.

Steve

Are there any published approaches for Blacksod? Really curious as to what MSA applies in the general area.

Irish Steve wrote: »

I've thought for a while before posting this, but as it seems to be raising it's head again, I am going to try and damp down some of the comments re Blackrock and Blacksod.

Blackrock is over 10 Nautical miles from Blacksod, which is where they were planning to land for fuel, and I would expect that their let down procedure would be similar to the profile used for a full instrument approach, so if they were operating at 4000 Ft, a gentle let down profile to allow them time to break cloud and become visually oriented before landing would have not required them to cross Blackrock at much below 3000 Ft, so massively clear of the island. To put that in context, an ILS approach to land that flies a 3 degree descent profile would be at 1500 Ft 4 miles from the runway, so it we allow an additional mile to ensure good transition, they would have started descent at about 13 miles, which is a mile before Blackrock, and been descending at less than 400 Ft per mile.

There is no way that we can get a definitive statement about exactly what is or is not in the S92 database, the issue has been raised, and cannot be answered at this time, so I am going to say that for now, this subject needs to be let lie, and not constantly dragged up again, to avoid boring people. All I will add is that I will be very surprised (shocked even) if it transpires that Blackrock is not in their database, but in theory, they had no need to be anywhere close to the island to be able to fly an appropriate vertical profile for a landing at Blacksod, and having used Blacksod for refuelling on previous occasions, the crew would have been aware of the local geography.

Discodog

Steve.

Several pilots on other fora have commented that, after the 360 turn, they appear to be heading for Blackrock rather than Blacksod. Given their relatively low height, had there been a major failure, they wouldn't of traveled far. So, on a normal, routine approach to Blacksod, how close would they get to Blackrock ?

Looking at the map Blackrock appears to be a significant diversion from the straight flightpath into Blacksod.

Irish Steve

I've thought for a while before posting this, but as it seems to be raising it's head again, I am going to try and damp down some of the comments re Blackrock and Blacksod.

Blackrock is over 10 Nautical miles from Blacksod, which is where they were planning to land for fuel, and I would expect that their let down procedure would be similar to the profile used for a full instrument approach, so if they were operating at 4000 Ft, a gentle let down profile to allow them time to break cloud and become visually oriented before landing would have not required them to cross Blackrock at much below 3000 Ft, so massively clear of the island. To put that in context, an ILS approach to land that flies a 3 degree descent profile would be at 1500 Ft 4 miles from the runway, so it we allow an additional mile to ensure good transition, they would have started descent at about 13 miles, which is a mile before Blackrock, and been descending at less than 400 Ft per mile.

There is no way that we can get a definitive statement about exactly what is or is not in the S92 database, the issue has been raised, and cannot be answered at this time, so I am going to say that for now, this subject needs to be let lie, and not constantly dragged up again, to avoid boring people. All I will add is that I will be very surprised (shocked even) if it transpires that Blackrock is not in their database, but in theory, they had no need to be anywhere close to the island to be able to fly an appropriate vertical profile for a landing at Blacksod, and having used Blacksod for refuelling on previous occasions, the crew would have been aware of the local geography.

Sterling Archer

I hope this doesn't come off as insensitive, would we expert ICG to retire the R116 callsign?

Discodog

jmayo wrote: »

I actually would trust the fishermen and local civilians who are lending a hand above some of our state services.

The AGS have requested people to hand in anything to local Garda Station and AFAIK Belmullet has been used as storage point.

Are you seriously asking that question ?
All the SAR piliots are very much aware of that rocky island with the big bloody lighthouse on top of it and they don't rely on Sky Demon, Iphones, or Google for their navigation.

The fact someone is aware of Skydemon and yet thinks a professional SAR operation hasn't anything better scares me, most especially if they are a pilot.

They aren't going to damage wreckage. The key thing is to record where it was found. The locals will know the trap points in the rocks like I do on my stretch & the strand lines.

Discodog

cosanostra wrote: »

Granuaile getting kitted out in Galway https://twitter.com/fcorby/status/843094580220313600

I wouldn't be surprised if the Explorer heads back up too

HighLine

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Past it as r117 flew by. Guards had closed the road. Hope it's nothing too serious.

They were just doing a flyby for the funeral.

https://twitter.com/damienrte/status/843083817682456576

stampydmonkey

HighLine wrote: »

R117 seems to be on route to Glencullen now.

Past it as r117 flew by. Guards had closed the road. Hope it's nothing too serious.

cosanostra

Granuaile getting kitted out in Galway https://twitter.com/fcorby/status/843094580220313600

king2

https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/12034/s92-grounding-full-details-emerge/

All s92s were grounded for tail rotor inspection in January.

gctest50

jmayo wrote: »

..............

Are you seriously asking that question ?
All the SAR piliots are very much aware of that rocky island with the big bloody lighthouse on top of it and they don't rely on Sky Demon, Iphones or Google for their navigation.

The fact someone is aware of Skydemon and yet thinks a professional SAR operation hasn't anything better scares me, most especially if they are a pilot.

There's an app for dat

Sikorsky developed the iPad-based application "iFly," which replicates common performance calculations outlined in the S-92 and S-76D rotorcraft flight manuals and eliminates the need for paper charts

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/innovations/062816-webt-sikorsky-helicopter-smart-technology.html

jmayo

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

In the recovery process of the wreckage fishermen and civilians are bringing in parts of the wreckage to the pier where parts and I suppose potential clues to the cause could easily be lost in the handover process, should the navy not be only collecting and storing all the wreckage at sea and then bringing it ashore? I fully appreciate all the hard work and help that everyone in the area has given to the recovery process and I am proud of the response of the people of our country to aid the recovery.

I actually would trust the fishermen and local civilians who are lending a hand above some of our state services.

The AGS have requested people to hand in anything to local Garda Station and AFAIK Belmullet has been used as storage point.

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I have checked my Sky Demon app and it doesn't show Black Rock or indeed the much larger Duvillaun More to its east. Both islands are completely missing on the chart. Would it be possible that they are also missing on the S92 nav charts? Not sure what suite they use (Garmin or Colllins?) and I'm sure it's highly unlikely that they would not be aware of the islands, however in 300-ft ceiling and 3-km visibility at night it's a different story. It should be pointed out that both islands are present on the 1:500,000 and 1:250,000 paper charts.

cosanostra wrote: »

Someone suggested earlier in this thread that blackrock island doesn't appear on their navigation maps can anyone confirm this or rule out that they wouldn't have been aware of Blackrock island.

Are you seriously asking that question ?
All the SAR piliots are very much aware of that rocky island with the big bloody lighthouse on top of it and they don't rely on Sky Demon, Iphones, or Google for their navigation.

The fact someone is aware of Skydemon and yet thinks a professional SAR operation hasn't anything better scares me, most especially if they are a pilot.

Discodog

Tenger wrote: »

I fully agree.
I would just put that down to the Indo and their normal level of journalism on specialist matters. I suspect the writer is just focused on the single crewmember recovered rather than it being deliberate.

As regards the posts asking about the mapping situation. Please stop basing your assumptions on Google maps, OSI maps or similar public domain resources. The previous poster threw up those images purely as a guide to the location of Blackrock island.
The SAR crews would of course have highly detailed professional mapping software, charts and of course personal knowledge of the Irish coastline.

I agree which is what makes it all the stranger why they would be so close to Blackrock & why I asked if it was a waypoint on the normal refueling run to Blacksod.

Who has access to the radio for a Mayday ? Is it just the flight crew or the rear crew as well ?

Flippyfloppy

And even so , the lighthouse beacon would visually alert them right?

Tenger

cosanostra wrote: »

That indo article is a bit disrespectful to Capt Mark Duffy I'd say he would make as much effort to save his helicopter and crew

I fully agree.
I would just put that down to the Indo and their normal level of journalism on specialist matters. I suspect the writer is just focused on the single crewmember recovered rather than it being deliberate.

As regards the posts asking about the mapping situation. Please stop basing your assumptions on Google maps, OSI maps or similar public domain resources. The previous poster threw up those images purely as a guide to the location of Blackrock island.
The SAR crews would of course have highly detailed professional mapping software, charts and of course personal knowledge of the Irish coastline.

king2

Blackrock lighthouse is on the 1:500000 aeronautical chart

HighLine

R117 seems to be on route to Glencullen now.

[Deleted User]

scuby wrote: »

R117 completed a fly by over the church where the funeral is taking place a few mins ago. Saw earlier the road that the church is on, is called the "R116"

That was a weather check, fly by not complete

prunudo

scuby wrote: »

R117 completed a fly by over the church where the funeral is taking place a few mins ago. Saw earlier the road that the church is on, is called the "R116"

Flying around Bray seafront now, never seen so many people look up and take notice of a helicopter before.

scuby

R117 completed a fly by over the church where the funeral is taking place a few mins ago. Saw earlier the road that the church is on, is called the "R116"