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Child Item

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Ralf and Florian

She presented a documentary on rape culture during the week on RTE which focused on the issue of sexual assault against females. It's interesting to note her response to a (male) follower would tweeted that it would be hilarious to see a remake of Deliverance featuring "pissed up dickheads on a drunken stag". For anyone who's not seen the movie Deliverance its about three city dwellers who go for a weekend fishing to what could be described as a backwoods community. Central to the storyline is when they are held captive and one of them raped by a bunch of rednecks.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/794195404145442816

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midlandsmissus

Greenbow wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So we've had a thread dissecting and hating LON's character. We've had a thread dissecting and trashing Rosemary McCabes character. Both female.
LON has invariably been called narcissistic, crazy, a lunatic, unbalanced just because she speaks about women's issues. She is an award winning author- more than many of you might have done. Is there a male in the media you might like to pick apart?
Why just women on AH?
To the people telling me to answer other people's posts. Leave me alone. You do not control me and stop acting like you think you have the right.

Are you for real?

This is a discussion forum, people want to discuss and debate topics, you aren't engaging with anyone in debate. Asking you to answer a question is not controlling you.

I'm not engaging with anyone in debate? That's a lie. I haven't replied to anyone on this thread? That's a lie. I think posters feeling they have the right to demand that one poster replies to everyone's posts, is pushy and against the forum charter.

midlandsmissus

Omackeral wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Feel good tearing apart a young girl?

Another drive-by post from the worst advertisement for feminism in Ireland not called Louise, Rosemary or Una. Why don't you grow a backbone and debate on the posts that directly respond to you? You're too busy calling people bullies and taking offense. A young girl FFS, no, it's a grown ass woman. Your emotional language is yet another awful attempt at deflection.

Can you tell me a feminist that you do like?

The J Stands for Jay

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Is there a male in the media you might like to pick apart?
Why just women on AH?.

Ian O'Doherty got a going over a few post above yours. You could start a thread about him. Or maybe about that **** Piers Morgan. I'd say some really nasty things about him if you wanted

mzungu

red ears wrote: »

That was after she cancelled.

It doesn't matter a jot why she cancelled. That is her own business and certainly none of Ian O'Doherty's business. It was a slot on the LLS, nothing life or death.

Mountainsandh

bridgingthegap wrote: »

My experience with feminism, in the last couple of years more than ever, is actively including this issue in its dialogue. This obviously isn't reflected in the experiences of many people in this thread but that could be down to people singling out extreme instances that fit the narrative they are looking to create. Irony intended.
.

My experience of feminism is limited, as I normally try to keep away from all this.
What is exposed in social media of late though, seems at odds with what you seem to understand, imo.

I'm not really trying to create a narrative, for my part anyway, just trying to understand the crazy vibes here, as I've never really looked into it. I'd be reluctant to read feminist books, but trying to get a snapshot of the "theories" is proving difficult when LoN and such are the ambassadors.

Wibbs

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Every feminist in Ireland/anywhere has been called crazy/unbalanced/mentally unstable.

Nope. I have suggested that much of their ideology is crazy though. As for "mentally unstable", many of these professional feminists themselves publicly inform their readers that they do suffer from mental illness(s) and are in therapy. This is not to diminish the personal suffering that can be involved, but it can inform opinions. EG if someone suffers from extreme agoraphobia I'd not take their opinions regarding anxiety upon walking the streets of Ireland as unbiased.

You do not see this the other way round from women, when men talk about men's rights.

Eh, yes, yes you do. Quite a lot actually. MRA's are roundly laughed at pretty much across the board for some of their dafter pronouncements. MGTOW types are seen as utter sadlings. The whole "red pill" ideology is laughed out of it all over the place. By both men and women.

Can you name a feminist you do like?

Some of the early Suffragettes, some of the 60's examples. Camille Paglia another and I've generally had a soft spot for Greer. None of them pulled the overgrown children wanting to be treated as adults victimhood card and none shied away from debate. Then again those folks grew up in a world where echo chambers, at least in mainstream media and other platforms were hard to come by. It's far easier to build one today. Especially in a society that sees "feminism" as untouchable as far as mainstream media and politics are concerned.

To all- should we all, women, never have a dissenting opinion in order for you to feel happy? Do you see how controlling this is?

Like I say, irony goes out the window...

How are dissenting opinions treated by "feminists"? They are removed/dismissed/attacked/held up as examples of misogyny/jumped on so they can get out the emotionals for fuller effect. Feminists(like all ideologues) don't do debate very well at all. How far would a public figure go if he or she questioned the pay/education gap, the notion of "rape culture"? Not very. Men have been hounded or even lost their positions because of one or two "feminists" in the media starting campaigns against them.

The usual feminist "debate" goes along the lines of everyone agreeing with each other and rounding irrationally on those that don't. They call for "respectful" dialogue which roughly translates as agreeing with the ideology or asking questions that lead to answers agreeing with the ideology.

Is there a male in the media you might like to pick apart?

You must not be reading this thread.

Me. Earlier today. wrote: »

Regardless of any reasons involved pre or post cancellation he acted like a petulant arse.

Me. Earlier today. wrote: »

After she cancelled her appearance, he could have said "ah well" or better yet nothing, but instead he threw a major hissy fit on social media. Real aggressive stamping feet temper tantrum stuff. Totally uncalled for and it made him look like petulant boy child.

tomwaterford wrote: »

Have you read some of the horsesht she comes out with

Shes the katie hopkins of womens rights??
Alot of what she writes is pure trolling.....it is no way applicible to anyone i know

It would be all too easy to dismiss it as trolling or extremism, but the reality is more and more of this ivory tower college campus hysterical nonsense is being brought into the fold of the mainstream and transmitted to wider culture as fact.

johnnyskeleton

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Every feminist in Ireland/anywhere has been called crazy/unbalanced/mentally unstable.

You are probably correct that someone calls them crazy. But it isnt always men. Christina Hoff Sommers is considered a gender traitor for criticising the methodology for the wage gap. Erin Pizzey who founded the first domestic violence shelters received death threats from feminists because she said that men should also have domestic violence shelters and it was more often a two way abuse situation rather than the common abuser/abusee narrative.

And there are loads of female critics of feminism because they are embarrassed by a lot of the crazier parts of the movement.

Your attempt to characterise criticising feminism as men shouting down women and not letting them speak is not true. In fact, you are the one shouting people down by refusing to engage with points, whether valid or otherwise, and instead accusing anyone who disagrees with you as a mysogynist.

johnnyskeleton

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm not engaging with anyone in debate? That's a lie. I haven't replied to anyone on this thread? That's a lie. I think posters feeling they have the right to demand that one poster replies to everyone's posts, is pushy and against the forum charter.

Ok, well you dont have to respond to each poster nor to each and every point being made.

The general thrust is that there is no evidence that lewd comments of a sexist nature are in any way connected to rape or sexual assault and that whatever tenuous evidence there is of some people trivialising sexual assault, there is much more compelling argument to say that it is reviled by soceity and rapists are the lowest of the low, considered beneath gangland killers and the people who burgle the elderly. This suggests that we dont live in a rape culture and the term is highly misleading and sensarionalist. Do you agree or disagree with that analysis?

Zulu

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Can you tell me a feminist that you do like?

Salk, swalk, ****e, swalk. Another classic seagull post from midlandsmissus.

How you expect posters to answer your questions when you continually ignore there's is very telling. Perhaps start with addressing other posters questions /points before asking more of your own and crying "controlling behavior". Just a thought.

Richard Hillman

O'Neill, Mullaly, Ryanair girl and McCabe have been picked out for being mentally unstable because they have all spoken publicly about their mental health issues.

Their mental Health and personal issues are not switched on or off. It affects their writings and their opinions. And they are being exploited for it.

Emma Watson was sexualised as a young teenager and was treated disgracefully by people online. This is clearly affecting her as a grown up to the point where she hates straight white males. She has a right to be distressed from what happened with her but it needs to be pointed out that this is why she feels the way she does. She shouldn't be allowed to practice hate speech because society feels guilty about what happened with her.

midlandsmissus

Johnnyskeleton thanks for the post. I agree that rapists are seen as very bad in Ireland.
As a woman, I want to try to get my personal experience and view across on this clearly.
To me 'rape culture' does not in anyway mean: I midlandsmissus, accuse you, jonnyskeleton, of being a rapist. It does not mean we are accusing all men in Ireland of being rapists. However, I, and many women I know have had sexual violence happen to us, sexual boundaries being crossed, far too much than people should experience going about their normal lives.
'Rape culture' analyses why some men feel they have the right to grope, harass, assault women.
'Rape culture' analyses why issues of consent often result in women being hurt. On the why I did not report my rapist thread, numerous men spoke about pushing someone into sex who was reluctant to have sex.
Rape culture analyses what is going wrong on both gender's sides. It is not about demonizing men, it is trying to create a better future. Maybe 'consent issues' would be a better way to put it.

red ears

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Can you tell me a feminist that you do like?

Christina Hoff Summers is a reasonable feminist

red ears

mzungu wrote: »

It doesn't matter a jot why she cancelled. That is her own business and certainly none of Ian O'Doherty's business. It was a slot on the LLS, nothing life or death.

I never defended Ian, I think he was wrong to rant like he did. I am referring to the fact that his rant was not the reason she chickened out of the late late appearance.

johnnyskeleton

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Maybe 'consent issues' would be a better way to put it.

It certainly would. Perhaps the misunderstanding is due to LONs insistence that everything she sees that is wrong, whether it is offensive gender specific language/comments, or issues regarding the misunderstanding of what consent is, amounts to a culture of rape.

If people criticise her for linking a pop song to rape, people are not saying that the pop song shouldnt be criticised. They are objecting to the hyperbole and sensationalism of calling it rape culture.

If anything, LON trivialises genuine victims of sexual abuse and violence, of whom Ireland has sadly seen more than its fair share. She does so by equating the serious violation of their bodily integrity to something banal, like objectifying comments. Would you agree with that?

Very little of what she talks about with rape culture has anything to do with actual rape or sexual assaults. I feel like a broken record at this stage but if she genuinely cared about actual sexual violence she would have listened intently to the people actually involved in the criminal justice system and not just tried to make them seem like they are against the victims of crime.

Outlaw Pete

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Can you tell me a feminist that you do like?

This kind of remark implies that all the criticism being levelled at these fools is merely because they identif as feminists... but even a cursory glance at this thread would show that it is what these people are saying that is being attacked and indeed arguments against their contentions are being put... and so how can you suggest that the criticism they are receiving is merely because they are feminists. What a lazy comment to make and just really suggests that you haven't bothered your hole taking on board the views and opinions of others for so much as a second, so convinced are you that the crap they / you tend believe is right.

But to reply to your loaded lazy question: there are many feminists that are liked by those that also slate the LONs, McCabes, Mullallys of this world and many of them have in fact been cited on this thread. That you appear to be unaware of that would is more evidence imo that you haven't read many of the counter arguments posted in the thread.

Wendy McElroy would be a feminist who appears to have her head screwed on and I feel (as I posted very early on in the thread) that with the following she completely destroys the nonsense argument put out by the likes of LON, MacCabe etc that would have us believe we live in a rape culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3_ty5jKkX0

Be interested to hear what you have to say in response to Wendy's comments actually, as I think would most on the thread. Nobody is trying to shout you down, or silence you.. on the contrary... a response quoting opposing arguments and addressing them would be very much appreciated... given how fecking rare it is that we tend to see them.

midlandsmissus

I certainly won't reply in depth to a post that says, 'bothered your hole'.

midlandsmissus

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Maybe 'consent issues' would be a better way to put it.

It certainly would. Perhaps the misunderstanding is due to LONs insistence that everything she sees that is wrong, whether it is offensive gender specific language/comments, or issues regarding the misunderstanding of what consent is, amounts to a culture of rape.

If people criticise her for linking a pop song to rape, people are not saying that the pop song shouldnt be criticised. They are objecting to the hyperbole and sensationalism of calling it rape culture.

If anything, LON trivialises genuine victims of sexual abuse and violence, of whom Ireland has sadly seen more than its fair share. She does so by equating the serious violation of their bodily integrity to something banal, like objectifying comments. Would you agree with that?

Very little of what she talks about with rape culture has anything to do with actual rape or sexual assaults. I feel like a broken record at this stage but if she genuinely cared about actual sexual violence she would have listened intently to the people actually involved in the criminal justice system and not just tried to make them seem like they are against the victims of crime.

Outlaw Pete

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I certainly won't reply in depth to a post that says, 'bothered your hole'.

A cop out if ever there was one... what's your excuse for not replying to the last post I addressed to you then?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Johnnyskeleton thanks for the post. I agree that rapists are seen as very bad in Ireland.
As a woman, I want to try to get my personal experience and view across on this clearly.
To me 'rape culture' does not in anyway mean: I midlandsmissus, accuse you, jonnyskeleton, of being a rapist. It does not mean we are accusing all men in Ireland of being rapists. However, I, and many women I know have had sexual violence happen to us, sexual boundaries being crossed, far too much than people should experience going about their normal lives.
'Rape culture' analyses why some men feel they have the right to grope, harass, assault women.
'Rape culture' analyses why issues of consent often result in women being hurt. On the why I did not report my rapist thread, numerous men spoke about pushing someone into sex who was reluctant to have sex.
Rape culture analyses what is going wrong on both gender's sides. It is not about demonizing men, it is trying to create a better future. Maybe 'consent issues' would be a better way to put it.

You say that but yet recently you cited a man just asking you back to his place as evidence of misogyny in Ireland.

If that's your barometer on misogyny then I'm not surprised you think Ireland is rampant with it.

At the end of the day though, I feel labelling such things as misogynistic does demonize men, when you agree so or not.

midlandsmissus

Excuse the above post saying no, my phone went haywire. I'll get back to that post in a minute.

Vela

Wibbs wrote: »

She's over 30 years of age(I'd bet more than a few suggesting her ideology is bogus are younger than her). I have no words if you consider that either "young" or a "girl". Though not too surprising as I have also found many so called feminists are all too quick to pull the "vulnerable" angle. How children act when caught out, by a quiver of the upper lip and tears. When it suits. And then such people expect to be treated as mature adults capable of open debate?

Though your comment says much if unintended by you. She acts and writes and engages like an adolescent, so an easy mistake to make if one wasn't au fe with her bio. This is not wild conjecture, this how she publicly projects herself.

I'm 30 and I'd have thought she was quite a bit younger than me by the way she goes on, to be honest.

red ears

Vela wrote: »

I'm 30 and I'd have thought she was quite a bit younger than me by the way she goes on, to be honest.

Born in 1985 Google tells me.

Vela

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So we've had a thread dissecting and hating LON's character. We've had a thread dissecting and trashing Rosemary McCabes character. Both female.
LON has invariably been called narcissistic, crazy, a lunatic, unbalanced just because she speaks about women's issues. She is an award winning author- more than many of you might have done. Is there a male in the media you might like to pick apart?
Why just women on AH?
To the people telling me to answer other people's posts. Leave me alone. You do not control me and stop acting like you think you have the right.

Hi! You may remember me from previous posts, such as: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=102803065#post102803065 - in which I've responded to what you've said here, the last time you said it (i.e. your last post which was basically another version of this).

Care to address my concerns and opinion on the matter? Or, am I not allowed to be 'heard'? You know, since I'm a grown woman who actually has a pretty valid and experience-based opinion to share, that doesn't align with your own.

As a fellow female, are my beliefs irrelevant because they don't tally with yours? Doesn't that kind of go against what you're debating here in the first place?

midlandsmissus

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I certainly won't reply in depth to a post that says, 'bothered your hole'.

A cop out if ever there was one... what's your excuse for not replying to the last post I addressed to you then?

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Johnnyskeleton thanks for the post. I agree that rapists are seen as very bad in Ireland.
As a woman, I want to try to get my personal experience and view across on this clearly.
To me 'rape culture' does not in anyway mean: I midlandsmissus, accuse you, jonnyskeleton, of being a rapist. It does not mean we are accusing all men in Ireland of being rapists. However, I, and many women I know have had sexual violence happen to us, sexual boundaries being crossed, far too much than people should experience going about their normal lives.
'Rape culture' analyses why some men feel they have the right to grope, harass, assault women.
'Rape culture' analyses why issues of consent often result in women being hurt. On the why I did not report my rapist thread, numerous men spoke about pushing someone into sex who was reluctant to have sex.
Rape culture analyses what is going wrong on both gender's sides. It is not about demonizing men, it is trying to create a better future. Maybe 'consent issues' would be a better way to put it.

You say that but yet recently you cited a man just asking you back to his place as evidence of misogyny in Ireland.

If that's your barometer on misogyny then I'm not surprised you think Ireland is rampant with it.

At the end of the day though, I feel labelling such things as misogynistic does demonize men, when you agree so or not.

That post upset me, as that incident upset me.
Youve taken what I said out of context.
What happened was, I had a good friend in a band, and I used to go along as a guest singer. As he was singing all night, and I would only sing one or two songs, I was often stuck having a drink beside his dad who came to support him.
I was polite and made small talk.
Until he started making suggestive comments over and over to me,and it culminated one night when he asked me over and over again to come back to the house and go to bed with him.
I told that story on here and I remember one man saying,'ah that man what a legend'. But they never think of it from my side, he made me feel so uncomfortable, and I quit being in the band, something that I loved, because I couldn't bear being around him.

neonsofa

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That post upset me, as that incident upset me.
Youve taken what I said out of context.
What happened was, I had a good friend in a band, and I used to go along as a guest singer. As he was singing all night, and I would only sing one or two songs, I was often stuck having a drink beside his dad who came to support him.
I was polite and made small talk.
Until he started making suggestive comments over and over to me,and it culminated one night when he asked me over and over again to come back to the house and go to bed with him.
I told that story on here and I remember one man saying,'ah that man what a legend'. But they never think of it from my side, he made me feel so uncomfortable, and I quit being in the band, something that I loved, because I couldn't bear being around him.

I am sorry that you felt that way. Did you tell him how his comments made you feel? Did you tell him why it was not ok to talk to you that way?

Vela

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If anything, LON trivialises genuine victims of sexual abuse and violence, of whom Ireland has sadly seen more than its fair share. She does so by equating the serious violation of their bodily integrity to something banal, like objectifying comments. Would you agree with that?

Very little of what she talks about with rape culture has anything to do with actual rape or sexual assaults..

To me, this is the scariest truth about what the likes of her and RMC are doing with these kinds of posts. It's beyond irresponsible. It's downright disgusting, and they can't see that - which is even worse.

To equate cat calling from a building site with an act of serious sexual assault is completely unforgivable, in my book.

A few years ago, I wouldn't have commented. I'd have been too fcuked up by it all. I'd have taken it personally and I know it would have destroyed me. So, now that I'm in a position where I can discuss it without letting it affect me in the way - I intend to do so. And I will keep doing so.

There aren't enough people who understand why what these 'feminists' are saying is wrong. And I'm going to keep explaining why, until they do. Because, fcuk, do not talk about this sh1t unless you have some understanding of the damage you're doing to actual victims. You know, the actual victims who cannot go and post crying selfies on social media because they probably still haven't even told anyone about what they went through. Because many people don't. They don't for a long time, and if/when you do, it's the hardest thing you'll ever have to do. And you don't do it on fcuking INSTAGRAM.

Outlaw Pete

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I was polite and made small talk.
Until he started making suggestive comments over and over to me,and it culminated one night when he asked me over and over again to come back to the house and go to bed with him.
I told that story on here and I remember one man saying,'ah that man what a legend'. But they never think of it from my side, he made me feel so uncomfortable, and I quit being in the band, something that I loved, because I couldn't bear being around him.

Just sounds like a randy guy who wanted to shag you tbh.

Did he say women were all bitches or something? Or make any similar remarks? I just fail to see how someone (male or female) asking someone back to their place for sex makes them a misogynist or a misandrist. Not saying I think his behavior was appropriate either mind, just don't feel it was indicative of him hating women.

Wibbs

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

If that's your barometer on misogyny then I'm not surprised you think Ireland is rampant with it.

I would agree, but it is a common enough thing and as I see it a major sign of couple of the problems with the thinking in current feminism(among other ideologies). LON and t'other woman from t'other thread whose name escapes are extremely prone to this kind of thinking. Current feminism and more recent twisting of other ideologies that seek out these divisive terms usually have these at the core:

The personal made universal, the subjective made objective and personal experience made politic and argument. Take this thread subject; rape/sexual assault. Quite often you will see discussions on it where the authors tell the world they've been raped/sexually assaulted. And that's of course up to them, however while it is a deeply personal experience it holds little weight as an objective argument on the crime itself or how a society considers such a crime.

It's more about individuals, or groups of like minded and like experienced individuals viewing the world entire through this prism. We see this with men who follow the red pill stuff as a "philosophy". They view Women™ as a singular object, something that can be predicted and measured, understood and by doing so ultimately made "safe". Their views and theories on women can have some actual realities at their core, but are wrapped up in ever more anal theories that through confirmation bias make them think these theories are correct. At the basis of all this and what gets these men interested in all this is almost always lacklustre or even bad early experiences of women, often one woman and it throws them off. They're then primed to look for a universal answer to their personal question. MGTOW types follow this even more so to the degree of avoiding their problems or problems with women entirely and wrapping it all up in neat self confirming theories.

Another problem is the increasing infantilisation of young adults. An extension of adolescence and a need for the continuation of parenting. In some this is direct(QV LON's writings), others seek out the authority of ideology and want more authority over them and by extension everyone else. A substitute parent in teachers, other authority figures and/or the state and/or the society(even therapists), where trigger warnings are akin to mummy telling a child to avert their gaze from the scary scene on the telly. The adult world beyond can be a scary place, so the option to run to teacher if they can't handle it is a welcome one. Take the extreme of some US students. College is supposed to be a place to explore the way into adulthood, to be exposed to the world of different ideas, different people and the wider society without the oversight of parents, yet those same kids are clamouring for the return of chaperones to protect them from all that and to excise all non approved ideas and the people who hold them.

The world has become a slightly scary place with it. The old notion of a "job for life" is largely gone. People have never had seemingly more choice and at the same time more judgement over such choices. It's understandable to cling to a parent figure of some nature to smooth things out.

Add in the rise and wider reach of online echo chambers and it is no wonder such black and white divisive ideas and ideologies come about.

The_Kew_Tour

If LON is a award winning author, that should give us all hope.

mzungu

red ears wrote: »

I never defended Ian, I think he was wrong to rant like he did. I am referring to the fact that his rant was not the reason she chickened out of the late late appearance.

Aye, I didn't mean to imply that you were defending him, certainly wasn't my intention. My point was that it doesn't matter why she cancelled, or whether IOD's Twitter rant came after. She owes nobody an answer for that because it is not important, or anybody's business. The only person in the country that cared was Ian O'Doherty.

midlandsmissus

neonsofa wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That post upset me, as that incident upset me.
Youve taken what I said out of context.
What happened was, I had a good friend in a band, and I used to go along as a guest singer. As he was singing all night, and I would only sing one or two songs, I was often stuck having a drink beside his dad who came to support him.
I was polite and made small talk.
Until he started making suggestive comments over and over to me,and it culminated one night when he asked me over and over again to come back to the house and go to bed with him.
I told that story on here and I remember one man saying,'ah that man what a legend'. But they never think of it from my side, he made me feel so uncomfortable, and I quit being in the band, something that I loved, because I couldn't bear being around him.

I am sorry that you felt that way. Did you tell him how his comments made you feel? Did you tell him why it was not ok to talk to you that way?

I don't think the onus was on me. I think the onus was on him not to make crude leery remarks, to his son's friend, 35 years his junior, who was working with his son in a professional capacity.
These kinds of men dont tend to be the most reasonable of men, he was physically large, overweight, an alcoholic, and I hated being around him.
I said a few things to him, like 'Im the same age as your son!' But I wasn't confident enough at the time to say more. I dont see it as my fault, I see it as his fault, and the same to any woman in that situation. It is that persons fault, not your fault.