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Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

Spanish Eyes

I'm just a bit puzzled by this impending statement by Enda Kenny, being delivered shortly.

Does it change any law, does it change the Constitution?

Does anyone know. Information is thin on the ground really AFAIS.

Thanks.

Edit: Mod warning http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102785057&postcount=212

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Help!!!!

end of the road wrote: »

and yet the gards are still able to turn up in some cases. so not only is being told the location on the day not an excuse for action, but the gards can deal with the issue even with the littlest of time.

Yes in some cases not all :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

and yet the gards are still able to turn up in some cases. so not only is being told the location on the day not an excuse for action, but the gards can deal with the issue even with the littlest of time.

Why do you always blame the gardai or the lack of manpower or their lack of enforcement? In an ideal world they'd have unlimited manpower and all would be hunky dory but it's not. Sulky racing on highways is dangerous. It could cause untold injury or death and they're sure as hell not insured. Is their anything to be said for people engaging in this having personal responsibility, anything at all? It's most definitely a traveller activity/part of their culture before you shift blame back to the settled folks.

This is without bringing up unregulated bareknuckle fights where children are in attendance.

ScumLord

Omackeral wrote: »

Why do you always blame the gardai or the lack of manpower or their lack of enforcement? In an ideal world they'd have unlimited manpower and all would be hunky dory but it's not. Sulky racing on highways is dangerous. It could cause untold injury or death and they're sure as hell not insured. Is their anything to be said for people engaging in this having personal responsibility, anything at all?

If you know a way to make the bad travellers develop a sense of personal responsibility outside of enforcing the law I'd love to hear it.

People simply will not start following laws that aren't enforced. For a long time it was illegal to do things like use mobile phones in your car but it wasn't until the guards made public statement that they'd be enforcing that law and actually started doing people for using their phone while driving that people stopped using their phones in cars. It was the same for the seatbelts, I know plenty of people that wouldn't wear seat belts until they got done for it, and they're settled.

I think it's well established by now that the criminal element in traveller communities can't be reasoned with.

end of the road

Omackeral wrote: »

Why do you always blame the gardai or the lack of manpower or their lack of enforcement? In an ideal world they'd have unlimited manpower and all would be hunky dory but it's not. Sulky racing on highways is dangerous. It could cause untold injury or death and they're sure as hell not insured. Is their anything to be said for people engaging in this having personal responsibility, anything at all? It's most definitely a traveller activity/part of their culture before you shift blame back to the settled folks.

This is without bringing up unregulated bareknuckle fights where children are in attendance.

if people are breaking the law, then simply telling them don't do it isn't going to work. therefore we need enforcers, hence we have them. however they are under-resourced, and can't enforce all of the laws that need to be enforced. it's not about blame, it's about facts. if people break the law, then the enforcers have to enforce.

huddledDuke12

To answer the question originally posed in the thread title, it would indicate to me that honesty has been further reduced in priority by our government.:mad:

How are we supposed to treat people equal when they don't behave equal?

Yes, there are a lot of members (don't know the exact figure) of the traveling community who want to escape the rut they have been subjected to all their lives (either by working their way out of it or going the entrepreneurship route) and for that, I have the utmost respect. That way, there would be a breadwinner aspect to their lifestyle.

However, if someone wants to live their whole lives without earning their keep, all respect is lost. That also goes for members of the settled community.

Bottom line, respect is earned and not given freely.

[Deleted User]

So basically crime is ok once you're not caught? I'm not talking about law enforcement here, I'm talking about personal responsibility. If I knew the law wouldn't catch me, I still wouldn't go and steal something from someone.

Look, I abhor people who call Travellers "knackers" and I hate to think of some kid already written off just because of his lineage but it has to go both ways. It's ok to call people engaging in criminal acts a scourge without having to have a go at the judicial system or comparing them to black people in the US.

No not at all travellers are bad. But the bad ones are. And that's ok to say without having to feel guilty.

Spanish Eyes

Travellers do not want to be discriminated against. They want to be equal.

Then they want to be different and ethnic.

Which is it now?

[Deleted User]

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Travellers do not want to be discriminated against. They want to be equal.

Then they want to be different and ethnic.

Which is it now?

Option 3, a pain in the boll0cks to all concerned.

This is just typical of the 'im the victim' culture we have today. Everyone absorbed of personal responsibility. Travellers want all the opportunities of normal people fair enough but wont avail of them. The school dropout rate is horrendous amongst them

end of the road

Omackeral wrote: »

So basically crime is ok once you're not caught? I'm not talking about law enforcement here, I'm talking about personal responsibility. If I knew the law wouldn't catch me, I still wouldn't go and steal something from someone.

of course it isn't okay. nobody suggested it was. however, those who are going to commit crime do think it's okay, and no amount of telling them "don't do it" is going to work. the rules need to be enforced and it's as simple as that.

Omackeral wrote: »

Look, I abhor people who call Travellers "knackers" and I hate to think of some kid already written off just because of his lineage but it has to go both ways. It's ok to call people engaging in criminal acts a scourge without having to have a go at the judicial system or comparing them to black people in the US.

nobody stated otherwise. however the reality is that travelers get more abuse for being involved in crime then other groups. the fact that more may be involved in crime doesn't come into the reasoning really, it's because the other groups who once received the same treatment as travelers are now out of bounce, because such treatment isn't tolerated any longer.

Omackeral wrote: »

No not at all travellers are bad. But the bad ones are. And that's ok to say without having to feel guilty.

nobody said otherwise.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Travellers do not want to be discriminated against. They want to be equal.

Then they want to be different and ethnic.

Which is it now?

both. both can happily co-exist. they are an ethnic minority and they are entitled not to be discriminated against.

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Travellers do not want to be discriminated against. They want to be equal.

Then they want to be different and ethnic.

Which is it now?

Why would you discriminate againest someone for being a different ethnicitie???

Help!!!!

Deleted User wrote: »

Option 3, a pain in the boll0cks to all concerned.

This is just typical of the 'im the victim' culture we have today. Everyone absorbed of personal responsibility. Travellers want all the opportunities of normal people fair enough but wont avail of them. The school dropout rate is horrendous amongst them

I think a lot of this is down to lefties, telling them they should have this or that. The same people who want to ban Christmas in case it offends other religions when other religions want to enjoy it too.

[Deleted User]

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why would you discriminate againest someone for being a different ethnicitie???

Are they a different ethnicity though Tom or are they failed uneducated, uncivilised people who choose to live in a caravan? I dont believe the system failed them either. They were more than happy to meet the system half way in that regard.

Spanish Eyes

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why would you discriminate againest someone for being a different ethnicitie???

I wouldn't, but why would they want to be different if they want to be equal. Easy question.

And a spell check when typing would be good too my friend. lol. Anything else is just pure laziness.

[Deleted User]

huddledDuke12 wrote: »

How are we supposed to treat people equal when they don't behave equal?

But could not someone say the exact same thing about many people around the world, looking at the crime rates and patterns of behaviour amongst Native Americans and black people in the USA, amongst Indigenous Australians, the Maori etc. All with very different histories, all subjected to discrimination and deprivation over long periods.

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I wouldn't, but why would they want to be different if they want to be equal. Easy question.

And a spell check when typing would be good too my friend. lol. Anything else is just pure laziness.

Everyone is different....it's clear you dont view them as equal and are using this different ethnicitie as a reason to say as much.....under the guise of debate??

[Deleted User]

tomwaterford wrote: »

Everyone is different....it's clear you dont view them as equal and are using this different ethnicitie as a reason to say as much.....under the guise of debate??

Why should what is effectively a failed dysfunctional community be recognised though Tom?

Spanish Eyes

tomwaterford wrote: »

Everyone is different....it's clear you dont view them as equal and are using this different ethnicitie as a reason to say as much.....under the guise of debate??

Ethnicity is the spelling.

No, I do not have to view anyone in any way.

They have to, and they want it every way. Up to them to debate the issue.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Are they a different ethnicity though Tom or are they failed uneducated, uncivilised people who choose to live in a caravan? I dont believe the system failed them either. They were more than happy to meet the system half way in that regard.

I don't think there different tbh and they do have many issues...

However I have many cousins what live/grew up in mobile homes as they couldn't afford to build houses/got burnt down/unsafe to live in

I wouldn't view them as uncivilised??
Its no crime being poor

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ethnicity is the spelling.

No, I do not have to view anyone in any way.

They have to, and they want it every way. Up to them to debate the issue.

For someone so concerned on spelling....you're somewhat incoherent in what your trying to say?

Spanish Eyes

Deleted User wrote: »

But could not someone say the exact same thing about many people around the world, looking at the crime rates and patterns of behaviour amongst Native Americans and black people in the USA, amongst Indigenous Australians, the Maori etc. All with very different histories, all subjected to discrimination and deprivation over long periods.

Fnck off. That is ridiculous. Don't think they ran rough shod over the legality of living in their country though.

Spanish Eyes

tomwaterford wrote: »

For someone so concerned on spelling....you're somewhat incoherent in what your trying to say?

Reply to the debate or shut the feck up. Easy isn't it.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why should what is effectively a failed dysfunctional community be recognised though Tom?

Perhaps we should ask FG this issue??

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

Why should what is effectively a failed dysfunctional community be recognised though Tom?

A "failed community".

That's fairly striking language. To condemn a whole people as a "failure". Again, would you say the same about Native Americans with their drinking, high crime rates, violence, suicide rates etc. They just failed to get with the programme.

[Deleted User]

tomwaterford wrote: »

I don't think there different tbh and they do have many issues...

However I have many cousins what live/grew up in mobile homes as they couldn't afford to build houses/got burnt down/unsafe to live in

I wouldn't view them as uncivilised??
Its no crime being poor

But that is different. Those were unfortunate circumstances. Im sure they are doing their best to be normal productive members of society as to be fair are many travellers

Not all travellers are poor either. Far from it. Look at traveller weddings and communions and the silly money they spend on dresses and all of the other tat.

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Reply to the debate or shut the feck up. Easy isn't it.

If it was a sentence and not just a random muttering I would

What exactly were you raving about?

[Deleted User]

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fnck off. That is ridiculous. Don't think they ran rough shod over the legality of living in their country though.

How do you mean "the legality of living in their country"?

There is nothing illegal about Native Americans in America, Indigenous Australians in Australia or Maoris in New Zealand. Like travellers in Ireland, they are all in their country legally. If you mean all have disproportionately higher crime rates, that is absolutely true.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But that is different. Those were unfortunate circumstances. Im sure they are doing their best to be normal productive members of society as to be fair are many travellers

Not all travellers are poor either. Far from it. Look at traveller weddings and communions and the silly money they spend on dresses and all of the other tat.

This is something I've often wondered....they clearly have the money in many cases....yet choose to spend it on likes of this...instead of comforts

Different strokes for different folks I guess

.....though I do question the value of sending them to the same jails etc

As a lad I known what was sent down before said....it's just like visiting cousins for a few months to alot of them....when they get put inside

Spanish Eyes

Deleted User wrote: »

A "failed community".

That's fairly striking language. To condemn a whole people as a "failure". Again, would you say the same about Native Americans with their drinking, high crime rates, violence, suicide rates etc. They just failed to get with the programme.

This is IRELAND we are talking about.

I don't think any other country's experience should bear any weight in the discussion at all. Different ways, different legalities, different laws, guns, summary execution etc. you get the picture.

What about IRELAND and the Travellers.

I have no truck with them having "Ethnic" status at all, that is ridiculous, so I really want to know what it means.

So far no one knows. Does anyone?

Spanish Eyes

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you mean "the legality of living in their country"?

There is nothing illegal about Native Americans in America, Indigenous Australians in Australia or Maoris in New Zealand. Like travellers in Ireland, they are all in their country legally. If you mean all have disproportionately higher crime rates, that is absolutely true.

Legality meaning observing the laws the rest of us have to every day. But you knew that already. Shoo.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote: »

A "failed community".

That's fairly striking language. To condemn a whole people as a "failure". Again, would you say the same about Native Americans with their drinking, high crime rates, violence, suicide rates etc. They just failed to get with the programme.

Well yes i would consider that an issue that needs to be addressed rather than continuing to feel sorry for themselves

The difference with the native Americans is that they were pretty much booted off their land and actually persecuted against by the explorers and conquerors.

Not all Travellers have been failures but there is an elephant in the room that is being ignored here. What they are experiencing isn't all down to the 'countryman' marginalising them