Poll: Time to proscribe the RC Church?

topmanamillion wrote: »

Have you been to Vatican city? Have you seen the opulence on display? An organisation that prattles on about people not putting wealth and worldly goods before god surrounds its self in untold grandeur.
Its sceptic and anyone that supports is sceptic by proxy.

Most of the stuff in the Vatican has been bequeathed to the Vatican by donors.

Most of the property it has here in Ireland has been bequeathed by donors.

You're opposed to people bequeathing possessions to whomever they chose. Why?

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Never had a personal issue with the RCC. They were there for me when I lost family members and friends. I'll always remember our Parish Priest travelling up to Dublin to the hospital from the midlands a few hours after my granny died. He was there for us. She had already received the Last Rites from the hospital chaplain but he insisted on coming up to bless her and to be there for the family.

A great friend of mine committed suicide in 2013. I sat by his coffin at the wake with another Priest from the Parish, I wasn't anyway religious at the time. He explained to me the concept of "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." God Almighty will judge will and not man.

I can understand people who have had negative experiences but I can only go on my own experiences. I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country.

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

topmanamillion wrote: »

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

What damage did RCC do to DEFTLEFTHAND's relatives?

hinault wrote: »

What damage did RCC do to DEFTLEFTHAND's relatives?

I think you`ve misunderstood my point. I was merely making an observation that people can compartmentalize the actions of others.
DEFTLEFTHAND is willing to ignore the rape of children and the subsequent cover up by RCC clergy, mass graves, along with all the other abuses because he/she had a positive experience with them. And also follow it up with the frankly disturbing statement:
"I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country."

This struck me as similar to the relatives of Harold shipman's positive thoughts on his abilities as a doctor and hence the comparison.

topmanamillion wrote: »

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

Or maybe you just believe every bad thing you hear about.

Did they not assist in the educational and Health Services when this new State didn't have a bob?

Do they not still provide crucial aid money in the third world. You see it's very east to criticise these people without fully understanding the work they undertake across the globe. All of this work of course goes unacknowledged. These people are Christians, not narcissists.

I was just like you in 2013, I followed the college narrative and wrote them off as paedo enablers, without ever attempting to understand or acknowledge some of the great things they have done and continue to do.

We can sit back in our chairs in 2017 and pontificate about social issues such as poverty and homelessness, they go out there and they do something about it.

topmanamillion wrote: »

I think you`ve misunderstood my point. I was merely making an observation that people can compartmentalize the actions of others.
DEFTLEFTHAND is willing to ignore the rape of children and the subsequent cover up by RCC clergy, mass grave, along with all the other abuses because he/she had a positive experience with them.
This struck me as similar to the relatives of Harold shipman's thoughts on him and hence the comparison.

Rational people form their views about an organisation based on their direct experience, or lack thereof, of that same organisation.

DEFTLEFTHAND's experience has been positive, hence his/her view.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Or maybe you just believe every bad thing you hear about.

Did they not assist in the educational and Health Services when this new State didn't have a bob?

Do they not still provide crucial aid money in the third world. You see it's very east to criticise these people without fully understanding the work they undertake across the globe. All of this work of course goes unacknowledged. These people are Christians, not narcissists.

I was just like you in 2013, I followed the college narrative and wrote them off as paedo enablers, without ever attempting to understand or acknowledge some of the great things they have done and continue to do.

We can sit back in our chairs in 2017 and pontificate about social issues such as poverty and homelessness, they go out there and they do something about it.

I'm all to aware of their interventions in impoverished countries:

"Catholic dogmas are killing people in Africa"
http://www.salon.com/2015/11/30/catholic_dogmas_are_killing_people_in_africa/

"Pope's anti-condom message is sabotage in fight against Aids"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/sep/11/bad-science-pope-anti-condom

Pope Francis was right about condoms and HIV
(a thoroughly chilling and ill informed propaganda article from the RCC`s
resident propaganda newspaper)
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-pope-was-right-about-condoms-and-hiv-49253/

topmanamillion wrote: »

I'm all to aware of their interventions in impoverished countries:

But you're not aware of all of their interventions in impoverished countries, are you?

Your Face

My Friday night was fun.

Absolam

No, but I'd like to see people who commit crimes prosecuted. That would seem a more sensible course.

hinault wrote: »

But you're not aware of all of their interventions in impoverished countries, are you?

Listen, if you can ignore systematic child buggery, mass child graves, condoning domestic violence, along with all the other abuses because a few Trocaire boxes were sent to Africa in order to expand catholic influence under the guise of charity then that's your issue.
I simply cant do that.

Zebra3

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Never had a personal issue with the RCC. They were there for me when I lost family members and friends. I'll always remember our Parish Priest travelling up to Dublin to the hospital from the midlands a few hours after my granny died. He was there for us. She had already received the Last Rites from the hospital chaplain but he insisted on coming up to bless her and to be there for the family.

A great friend of mine committed suicide in 2013. I sat by his coffin at the wake with another Priest from the Parish, I wasn't anyway religious at the time. He explained to me the concept of "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." God Almighty will judge will and not man.

I can understand people who have had negative experiences but I can only go on my own experiences. I'm proud to be a member of the Catholic Church. They did more good than they ever did bad in this country.

That'll be great consolation to all their rape and torture victims. :rolleyes: "I'm all right Jack".

twill wrote: »

Assuming you refer to the abuse of women and children, do we also proscribe the Protestant denominations given what happened in the Bethany Home and other such noble institutions? Just out of curiosity.

I'd have no issue with any other organisation being banned that has been involved in terrorism similar to the RC Church.

One eyed Jack

Zebra3 wrote: »

That'll be great consolation to all their rape and torture victims. :rolleyes: "I'm all right Jack".

Genuine question - what do you think proscription of the RCC would do for these people?

And have you considered the number of people who have experienced rape and torture who have sought solace in the RCC?

Circumstances aren't nearly as black and white as you might need them to be.

Bigus

uch wrote: »

I've no idea what the OP means by proscribe

That would be an ecumenical matter.

Nobody here knows why so many perverts winded up in the Irish Catholic Church.

You would wonder at times what kind of island this was. From studying clerical abuse cases from Ireland, to Australia, to Boston, and south America.

There's one worrying link to all these cases. All the perps seem to be either Irish or of Irish extraction

Why did these sexual deviants wind up in the church. They might have looked upon it as a career option, preying on the general naivety of the Church. The Church expect men to live their lives to the standard of Jesus Christ.

Their weakness is that they fail to see the bad in people.

whisky_galore

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Nobody here knows why so many perverts winded up in the Irish Catholic Church.

You would wonder at times what kind of island this was. From studying clerical abuse cases from Ireland, to Australia, to Boston, and south America.

There's one worrying link to all these cases. All the perps seem to be either Irish or of Irish extraction

Why did these sexual deviants wind up in the church. They might have looked upon it as a career option, preying on the general naivety of the Church. The Church expect men to live their lives to the standard of Jesus Christ.

Their weakness is that they fail to see the bad in people.

The RCC doesn't have a monopoly on this. Just take any organisation where undue deference is shown, but the church being a worldwide organisation had so much more scope to create, hide or move around wrong doers than say swimming clubs or the BBC.

In the past, young men were pretty much forced into the church just to have a "prIest in the family" a sign of respectability...that must form at least part of the root of the problem, that custom.

I see the church being in terminal decline here. I will give it 15 years and many churches will have locked their doors as the older generation dies off. They won't be able to get priests so I assume whatever parishes are still active will either have to import them or use lay people.

Not sure if it's possible to proscribe or take the church for everything it's got to compensate victims. They've already been granted an amnesty and theres no votes in it...the older generation being the group who actually go to the bother of voting.

[Deleted User]

People talk about the Church as if it was external. The Church was us, we gave it the power and deference. It wasn't some invading force that imposed its will, we embraced it. We fought hard for it through the days of penal laws and when we could express ourselves following Catholic Emancipation, we built churches at a rate of knots. The problem was when it became too powerful to have law applied, it became a haven for abusers, it turned a blind eye to the appalling wrongs. It is right and proper that it be subjected to law and scrutiny and sanctioned for any wrongdoing. But talk of proscription is the stuff of the 1600s.

You'd be surprised at how many younger adults still attend Mass and get involved in their Parish.

I'm 28 and plenty of my fellow members who are active are younger or around the same age. We'll be here for a while yet. I will fight for the Catholic Church till the end.

[Deleted User]

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how many younger adults still attend Mass and get involved in their Parish.

I'm 28 and plenty of my fellow members who are active are younger or around the same age. We'll be here for a while yet. I will fight for the Catholic Church till the end.

I've kinda returned to the Church, in a sense. No, I didn't find God, but since I had a daughter I like bringing her to Mass the odd time, and my mum likes it. It's nice and peaceful and she has to learn to sit down and not have her own way for a while...the kid, not my mum. Plus the Sundays are now mostly hangover free. Though long sermons make us all squirm.

And listen if you want to get really deep about the shiftiing demographics in western Europe you will get behind our Judeo Christian culture which forged all of your western values. The source

If you don't stand up for this, then maybe future generations will be adherent to something else. Another Abrahamic culture.

To quote Larry Dunne when he was sent down for 10 years.

"If you think we were bad, you'd want to see what's coming next"

newwan

red ears wrote: »

The catholic church is no threat anymore, Islam is where the real threat is.

Not really the point. The RC have killed more than any terrorist group ever will

UsedToWait

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

A great friend of mine committed suicide in 2013. I sat by his coffin at the wake with another Priest from the Parish, I wasn't anyway religious at the time. He explained to me the concept of "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner." God Almighty will judge will and not man.

I'm sorry for your loss, but you seem to be saying that you're allowing an adherent to an organisation that facilitated and condoned the most egregious abuse of children to call your friend, who was obviously struggling and in need of help, a sinner?
In fact, only years earlier, he would have denied him a proper burial because of his 'mortal sin'

I would have told him to get the fück out of there.

eoinzy2000

YES. I cant understand thanking the "priest that helped me at time of my sinner friends death". Also, the serial abuser gave money to charity BS. they didnt give money to charity, you did. Also, they only gave SOME of your money to charity. Some also went on their heinous criminal and depraved activities. I would feel a bit guilty myself about enabling that. But hey, rose tinted glasses and all that

red ears wrote: »

The catholic church is no threat anymore, Islam is where the real threat is.

More than that. The fading of the Church leaves a vacuum. All too easy for Islam to fill that here.

I was at Knock Shrine on Ash Wednesday, first time for 17years. On Ash Weds that time the place was filled, thriving, great atmosphere.

Like a ghost town now

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The vast majority of these clergy members are good men. They give up their lives to preach the word of the Lord.

Kind and gentle highly educated men. If they can something there, then I can too.

No they do not. They are well paid and rewarded and in free safe accomodation.

You cannot call them all good. Each is different. Some are good, some are not. Have met both kinds

topmanamillion wrote: »

I watched a documentary about Harold Shipman where relatives of his victims still felt he was a good doctor and were puzzled by their own ability to compartmentalise the monster and the good doctor.
You seem to have done something similar with the RCC.

I think this phenomenon is probably akin to a form of Stockholm syndrome.

No. More our strong desire and need to believe good of folk.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Or maybe you just believe every bad thing you hear about.

Did they not assist in the educational and Health Services when this new State didn't have a bob?

Do they not still provide crucial aid money in the third world. You see it's very east to criticise these people without fully understanding the work they undertake across the globe. All of this work of course goes unacknowledged. These people are Christians, not narcissists.

I was just like you in 2013, I followed the college narrative and wrote them off as paedo enablers, without ever attempting to understand or acknowledge some of the great things they have done and continue to do.

We can sit back in our chairs in 2017 and pontificate about social issues such as poverty and homelessness, they go out there and they do something about it.

Define Christian?

Are you aware that all the money Mother Teresa gathered to help the poor was not used for that but is sitting in the Vatican Bank? Untold millions while babies in her homes die of starvation?

They could in ireland , provide homes for all the homeless and not even miss the money .. convents lying empty and they will not even lend them .

What do they do here? Apart from begging us to give?

diomed

topmanamillion wrote: »

Have you been to Vatican city? Have you seen the opulence on display? An organisation that prattles on about people not putting wealth and worldly goods before god surrounds its self in untold grandeur.
Its sceptic and anyone that supports is sceptic by proxy.

I've been to St Peters and the Sistine Chapel next door.
There is a nice Michelangelo Pieta inside the door of St Peters. It was given to the Church by a French cardinal from a noble family.
The roof of the Sistine Chapel is nicely painted, but I doubt you could take it down and sell it.
You could take the Islamic State line and blow it up. But why?