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Child Item

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Ralf and Florian

She presented a documentary on rape culture during the week on RTE which focused on the issue of sexual assault against females. It's interesting to note her response to a (male) follower would tweeted that it would be hilarious to see a remake of Deliverance featuring "pissed up dickheads on a drunken stag". For anyone who's not seen the movie Deliverance its about three city dwellers who go for a weekend fishing to what could be described as a backwoods community. Central to the storyline is when they are held captive and one of them raped by a bunch of rednecks.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/794195404145442816

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Widdershins

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Forgot to note how the papers, yesterday, were putting all of these 'Michaela's back in Spain' pictures on the front cover, all this 'oh wow, she's looking hot' images that adorned the Irish Sun, Mirror and a few others.

A convicted drugs mule being treated like a celebrity, and then the media having a fit over the invite of John Gilligan on the Late Late. Yet one is a woman, who has a relatively decent figure, but pretty much cared nothing for the lives she destroyed with drugs. Similar to Gilligan.

But of course-society only treats women badly, eh LoN?
Wouldn't be surprised if someone put her on Dwts or the Restaurant, tbh. IT's not as if TV folks have standards.

The flip side of that is that if Michaela was obese and ugly she'd probably be treated quite differently. I think there's a problem with focusing on womens appearances and sometimes it happens to work in our favour if we were lucky enough to inherit good genes and looked after ourselves, but sometimes even then it goes against us. It shouldn't be the case, either way.

TerrorFirmer

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Forgot to note how the papers, yesterday, were putting all of these 'Michaela's back in Spain' pictures on the front cover, all this 'oh wow, she's looking hot' images that adorned the Irish Sun, Mirror and a few others.

A convicted drugs mule being treated like a celebrity, and then the media having a fit over the invite of John Gilligan on the Late Late. Yet one is a woman, who has a relatively decent figure, but pretty much cared nothing for the lives she destroyed with drugs. Similar to Gilligan.

But of course-society only treats women badly, eh LoN?
Wouldn't be surprised if someone put her on Dwts or the Restaurant, tbh. IT's not as if TV folks have standards.

You're being very selective, though.

There are plenty of papers today carrying stories from various groups lashing out at her, as well as a number of column and opinion pieces with the same sentiment.

Wibbs

Widdershins wrote: »

The flip side of that is that if Michaela was obese and ugly she'd probably be treated quite differently. I think there's a problem with focusing on womens appearances and sometimes it happens to work in our favour if we were lucky enough to inherit good genes and looked after ourselves, but sometimes even then it goes against us. It shouldn't be the case, either way.

+1.

Dravokivich

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Forgot to note how the papers, yesterday, were putting all of these 'Michaela's back in Spain' pictures on the front cover, all this 'oh wow, she's looking hot' images that adorned the Irish Sun, Mirror and a few others.

A convicted drugs mule being treated like a celebrity, and then the media having a fit over the invite of John Gilligan on the Late Late. Yet one is a woman, who has a relatively decent figure, but pretty much cared nothing for the lives she destroyed with drugs. Similar to Gilligan.

But of course-society only treats women badly, eh LoN?
Wouldn't be surprised if someone put her on Dwts or the Restaurant, tbh. IT's not as if TV folks have standards.

I think you're over playing the role she took in the whole thing to be honest. They were 2 naive girls who were over their heads. And you are putting them up alongside Gilligan? We've enough issues trying to filter through noise without this kinda thing being added to the mix. She's had her face in a few papers and they've noticed it sells. There's nothing really to be got from it more than that.

RabbleRouser2k

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think you're over playing the role she took in the whole thing to be honest. They were 2 naive girls who were over their heads. And you are putting them up alongside Gilligan? We've enough issues trying to filter through noise without this kinda thing being added to the mix. She's had her face in a few papers and they've noticed it sells. There's nothing really to be got from it more than that.

I would normally agree- but there is no way they were naive. More than likely they had done this before. Just got caught that time.
Even in jail she bragged about how she became 'top dog' in there. No contrition whatsoever.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/835019309571268608/photo/1

This has been doing the rounds on twitter-it's hilariously naive. Jebus wept.
Yes, LoN shared it.

Also, she's advertising going to a hotel for her birthday-easy to do wthen not paying rent, eh?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/24/moment-change-me-lashing-out-stranger-opened-door?CMP=share_btn_tw

And this-this I just...a man holds a door for a woman, she then lashes out at him when she becomes thinner because he didn't hold the door before...so miserable with the weight, miserable without-nobody can fix that.

deaddonkey15

Widdershins wrote: »

The flip side of that is that if Michaela was obese and ugly she'd probably be treated quite differently. I think there's a problem with focusing on womens appearances and sometimes it happens to work in our favour if we were lucky enough to inherit good genes and looked after ourselves, but sometimes even then it goes against us. It shouldn't be the case, either way.

Very much so.

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/10/08/speeding-limerick-beauty-queen-praised-for-honesty/

Even the title of this article focuses more on this girl's looks then the frightening speed she was doing. I somehow doubt a male would get off as lightly.

RabbleRouser2k

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Very much so.

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/10/08/speeding-limerick-beauty-queen-praised-for-honesty/

Even the title of this article focuses more on this girl's looks then the frightening speed she was doing. I somehow doubt a male would get off as lightly.

I do remember Baz Ashmawy got off lightly-lost his license, but yeah...
Practically did the same thing as Ryan Dunn (The Jackass guy who died in a car accident caused by his drinking)-ie posting pics of his drinking on twitter, then getting in his car.

I think because she was all like 'yeah, I drank and messed up' she was treated a little more lenient. Not excusing it, mind, but just trying to understand it. Judges are usually more lenient if you admit to screwing up-unless you keep screwing up.

NickMondo

I've had an experience where a woman who I was good friends with at the time, litteraly woke me up for sex when we were both drunk. I said to her a few days afterwards, as we'd had sex a few times before that with kind of a f*ck buddy thing and talked frankly, that it felt a bit odd that night. We fell out a few weeks later over something different and she start texting me saying she "felt like I raped her that night". She had litteraly woke me up and straddled me. And knowing her as I do she's gone around looking for sympathy of people i've never met describing me as a rapist. It's a terrible thing for women to do because there's nothing worse than to be falesly accused of that, and also it harms actual victims of suck a horrifc act when women or men just throw around the term "willy nilly". The effects of it lessen.

Saying Ireland has a "rape culture" is absolute nonsense that shouldn't be humoured or a subject for debate.

RabbleRouser2k

NickMondo wrote: »

I've had an experience where a woman who I was good friends with at the time, litteraly woke me up for sex when we were both drunk. I said to her a few days afterwards, as we'd had sex a few times before that with kind of a f*ck buddy thing and talked frankly, that it felt a bit odd that night. We fell out a few weeks later over something different and she start texting me saying she "felt like I raped her that night". She had litteraly woke me up and straddled me. And knowing her as I do she's gone around looking for sympathy of people i've never met describing me as a rapist. It's a terrible thing for women to do because there's nothing worse than to be falesly accused of that, and also it harms actual victims of suck a horrifc act when women or men just throw around the term "willy nilly". The effects of it lessen.

Saying Ireland has a "rape culture" is absolute nonsense that shouldn't be humoured or a subject for debate.

Jesus-that sounds seriously f***ed up!!! Like, wth?

And that could be construed as date rape, or just rape, totally. Like, just wow...

hatrickpatrick

ivytwine wrote: »

I just googled political lesbianism and bloody hell my brain was better off without knowing about it. It's an insult to everyone, gay and straight.

I take an incredibly positive view of it myself - it is after all a conscious form of social Darwinism. These muppets are voluntarily removing themselves and thus their ideology from the future gene pool, thereby resulting in an overall trend towards slightly less muppetry over time. :pac:

(Unfortunately the Trumpeteers seem to multiply like rabbits so we still have a net increase in overall muppetry)

Widdershins

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Very much so.

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2014/10/08/speeding-limerick-beauty-queen-praised-for-honesty/

Even the title of this article focuses more on this girl's looks then the frightening speed she was doing. I somehow doubt a male would get off as lightly.

It's been mentioned here on this thread that women are treated more leniently in court cases. I don't know if that's true but I can believe it. Quite frankly, life is tough enough, if someone's shallow enough to be nice to me because they think I'm either pretty or silly then I'll let them. I don't like it but I could be discriminated against, possibly by an insecure woman, on another day. Which has happened.
Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue.
It bothers me that the AA give priority to women whose cars break down, over men whose cars break down, when the men might be in a more dangerous situation. It bothers me that men might be treated more harshly in court, and that fathers don't get a fair deal in custody cases. The world is not fair or equal. Men get judged on their looks too, just look at Trump and Trudeau, both of whom are regularly on the receiving end of shallow comments. And that TD who refuses to wear a suit, the one who seems to be heavily focused on cannabis legalisation. Ming someone?
I agree with ''view not shoes'', but it should apply to everyone. I'd say the day we stop judging others on their looks will be the day hell freezes over..and for that reason we might as well all get over the objectification of women. And at least try to turn it towards something like this-a campaign to focus on peoples merits and views in professional life.
http://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/our-work/campaigns/election-2015-views-not-shoes/

RabbleRouser2k

And today the indo are reporting about her, McCollums, instagram/ twitter feed-she's trying to make it 'oh, they are criticising my body' and trying to make herself sound like a body positivity role model...

Dear JEsus, why give her more ink.

RabbleRouser2k

Lon's Latest...does this sound like the words of a 32 year old woman...or a teenage girl?

“Look at me! Like me! Buy my books!”

It also makes me very aware of my physicality; generating a consciousness of my body that can be triggering for someone who has battled disordered eating since they were a teenager.

Before my first novel, Only Ever Yours, was released, I was lucky enough to secure an interview with a popular Sunday paper. It would be a full page spread, they told me, accompanied by a photo.

The morning of publication arrived. I was sitting in my car outside the newsagent waiting for it to open, and there it was. The worst photo I had ever seen of myself, in print in a national newspaper, for all to see. I gasped and then began to cry hysterically.

My father attempted to calm me down.

“It’s a great photo! I love it! I love it so much I’m going to cut it out and put it in my wallet!”

I kept crying. He asked if I had looked at the accompanying interview which he described as insightful and interesting and would be brilliant publicity. I didn’t stop crying.

Eventually, giving up in exasperation, he turned to me. “Louise, have you even read your own book?”

I can understand his impatience. Only Ever Yours is a dystopian novel that deals with societal pressure on young women to conform to often unattainable ideas of beauty.

It was a call to arms for women to reject the idea that in order to be somehow acceptable, we had to be physically attractive.

I had read all of the feminist literature around this topic, hell, I had even written it myself, and yet here I was - sobbing over an unflattering photo.

Also, the last line, seriously? Reading stuff to enforce your views, but not reading things from the other perspective? That's how you gain knowledge and grow as person.

JRant

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Lon's Latest...does this sound like the words of a 32 year old woman...or a teenage girl?

Also, the last line, seriously? Reading stuff to enforce your views, but not reading things from the other perspective? That's how you gain knowledge and grow as person.

Christ on a bike, her writing style would give you a migraine. It reminds me of the essays school children write in primary school when the teacher asks them to describe their summer holidays.

"I went on a plane.
The weather was nice.
There was lots of ice cream.
My friend John was there.
We had fun.

I like cake"

Widdershins

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Lon's Latest...does this sound like the words of a 32 year old woman...or a teenage girl?

Also, the last line, seriously? Reading stuff to enforce your views, but not reading things from the other perspective? That's how you gain knowledge and grow as person.

I find that brattyness quite grating. It's the doting indulgent parents thing again, reminds me of her mother packing her suitcase to her exacting standards. *Makes a mental note never to indulge a child to that level*
There are young women buying and reading her views...telpis.

What happened to strong female role models?

RabbleRouser2k

Widdershins wrote: »

I find that brattyness quite grating. It's the doting indulgent parents thing again, reminds me of her mother packing her suitcase to her exacting standards. *Makes a mental note never to indulge a child to that level*
There are young women buying and reading her views...telpis.

What happened to strong female role models?

Oh yeah-she's a total brat. Like, she doesn't pay rent to the parents, then denounces her mom, dotes on dad...

Then for her birthday, she rents a hotel room-in a five star hotel-for her birthday. I imagine her parents would love to have booked a holiday for that money.

There are still strong female role models-they just get vilified. I would argue many of the cast of Game of Thrones (the real life actresses, and the character) have shown intelligent opinions. Maisie Williams for example, for all her youth, challenged feminists who tried to paint GoT as anti woman. (There is a video) whilst so has Ronda Rousey.
These women are there-many of them are role models. I even follow a few youtubers who are vocal anti-feminists who point out all the flaws.

red ears

Crying hysterically over a photo Louise says, visceral screams my god this girl would be hard work. Such a drama queen.

RabbleRouser2k

red ears wrote: »

Crying hysterically over a photo Louise says, visceral screams my god this girl would be hard work. Such a drama queen.

When a 22 year old dumped her (more than likely) you know that even guys her age won't wanna deal with her crud.

red ears

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

When a 22 year old dumped her (more than likely) you know that even guys her age won't wanna deal with her crud.

She is so obsessed with feminism and victimhood it's hard to imagine her talk of much else. What man is going to want to listen to that.

Wibbs

Widdershins wrote: »

What happened to strong female role models?

It's easier to be a child. Its easier to telegraph even wallow in weakness. It's easier to be part of a group that espouses it. It's quite simply easier to be weak than strong, it's easier to live up to, so it has a wider appeal if one pushes weakness as a strength.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Oh yeah-she's a total brat. Like, she doesn't pay rent to the parents, then denounces her mom, dotes on dad...

Irish Daddy Syndrome©. Irish Mammies come in for some stick when it comes to indulging their sons, but the Irish Daddies can be just as bad when it comes to indulging their daughters.

Widdershins

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Oh yeah-she's a total brat. Like, she doesn't pay rent to the parents, then denounces her mom, dotes on dad...

Then for her birthday, she rents a hotel room-in a five star hotel-for her birthday. I imagine her parents would love to have booked a holiday for that money.

There are still strong female role models-they just get vilified. I would argue many of the cast of Game of Thrones (the real life actresses, and the character) have shown intelligent opinions. Maisie Williams for example, for all her youth, challenged feminists who tried to paint GoT as anti woman. (There is a video) whilst so has Ronda Rousey.
These women are there-many of them are role models. I even follow a few youtubers who are vocal anti-feminists who point out all the flaws.

I love that character in Game of Thrones. I know they're still around but they seem to be solitary, when LON and similar seem to be in the majority.

RabbleRouser2k

Wibbs wrote: »

It's easier to be a child. Its easier to telegraph even wallow in weakness. It's easier to be part of a group that espouses it. It's quite simply easier to be weak than strong, it's easier to live up to, so it has a wider appeal if one pushes weakness as a strength.

Irish Daddy Syndrome©. Irish Mammies come in for some stick when it comes to indulging their sons, but the Irish Daddies can be just as bad when it comes to indulging their daughters.

The latter is a definite symptom of the 'Irish feminist' tbh. I mean, don't get me wrong, I know dad's who reared strong independent women who view their moms and dads as just that-parents.
But they don't start looking at their mom's as inferior.

And the weird thing is-try and bring it up, they get so defensive-wheras most lads roll with the punches when it comes to mom jokes.

infogiver

Widdershins wrote: »

I find that brattyness quite grating. It's the doting indulgent parents thing again, reminds me of her mother packing her suitcase to her exacting standards. *Makes a mental note never to indulge a child to that level*
There are young women buying and reading her views...telpis.

What happened to strong female role models?

They've all been beaten into submission by the mens.

RabbleRouser2k

Widdershins wrote: »

I love that character in Game of Thrones. I know they're still around but they seem to be solitary, when LON and similar seem to be in the majority.

I would argue that appearances are deceiving, tbh. Like, look deeper, and you see that the numbers are dwindling. Those 'large crowds' are often the only ones who share their views-the average joe or josephine on the street would call them mad (rightfully).
The deal is, however, that the minority are often the one's who scream the loudest-in a cottage in Cork, for example.

But are they the most vocal? No, they complain, they whinge, but they don't get things done. Not at all.
I again use the GoT example-folks constantly complain about the show 'going too far'-the writers and producers simply respond with 'if you don't like it, don't watch it'...well, the television ratings for the show continue to swell. Audiences and fans notice the loyalty, but also, I would argue, those who claim that these shows are misogynist or whatever (when in fact men fare as badly or worse in GoT) have little to no impact on what happens within it.
On the other hand, when films or shows 'cater' for the 'feminist' cause-they cannot handle the criticism. Case in point, and one that LoN mentioned in one of her articles, was Ghostbusters 2016. Look how badly that did-played to empty theatres, deleted comments from youtube to change a narrative.
The screams may be loud, but the actions are non-existant. Hell, UCD didn't give one iota to consent classes because the college didn't believe in them-it was entirely the Student Union who pushed em. It was pretty much a college society, like a film or arts one, not a college movement.

Smegmaniac17

I'm just wondering if a thorough deconstruction of the 'Rape Culture' Ideology has ever been given a platform in any of the mainstream media publications or outlets? If so, I'd like to see it!

I think there have been some great posts on this forum and for the most part they seem to be fairminded (even though some are very scathing of Louise O'Neill and her ilk). One thing that has really surprised me is the lack of feminists on these posts trying to come to her defense. I admittedly haven't read all 277 pages and skipped big bulks at a time but I haven't seen any sort of vigorous defense of the 'Rape Culture' ideology at all. I feel that is a shame because I want to hear the best defense as possible of the claim and I want to engage with this defense. Recently, I have found myself debating some feminists online who advocate the truth of 'Rape Culture' and I will try my best to articulate my conclusions on and criticisms of their position.

The main problem I see is that there is a real distortion at play of the meaning of the word 'culture'. And I think it is a very insensitive and disingenuous distortion. The word culture is defined as 'the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society''. If we are to apply this definition to the term 'rape culture' , we are basically saying that rape is considered normal, it is widespread , the majority of people do it! When we say in Ireland that we have a 'drinking culture' it implies that those who don't drink are the exception to the rule which happens to be the truth so the term is justified. When we say we have a 'TV watching culture' once again it implies that if you dont watch Tv, then you are the exception, not the rule! We can so easily back up these claims with empirical evidence so we are fully justifed in using the terms 'drinking culture' and 'TV watching culture'. So if we are to be consistent and truthful in our applications of the word culture to 'rape culture' , we have to conclude that what it means is that the majority of the men in the country are rapists. Of course, I know that some advocates of rape culture would say 'no, we are not saying that most men are rapists' but (AND THIS IS MY MOST IMPORTANT POINT) then they can't insist on dogmatically pedalling that there is a rape culture because they have to acknowledge that they are dishonestly using the word 'culture' where it doesn't belong! And it is particularly surprising that a novelist like Louise O'Neill would have so little respect for her application of the English Language on a subject matter that she seems to be very passionate about!

The following is an excerpt taken from the message I received from a Gender Studies student that I debated online. Obviously, out of respect, she will remain nameless but I think it is useful to read as it gives us a better understanding of their position and the fallacies inherent in their arguments : ''Rape Culture is defined as a culture because it's a collection of practices, ideas, thoughts and beliefs that justify and promote rape: 'She was dressed like a slut so how could she expect not to get molested or cat called.' 'How can any man not enjoy or want sex.' 'They drank too much so they were basically asking for it.' Those are examples of the narratives that contribute to rape culture. ''

First of all, I don't feel like the 'dressed like a slut therefore she was asking to be raped' attitude is prevalent in society at all. I'm not saying that it's an attitude that doesn't exist at all but there is no evidence at all that suggests that this is the majority view point! However, there is a context in which the 'dressed like a slut' attitude is more applicable to and that is the context of 'I wouldn't go out with a girl who dressed like a slut. Maybe have sex with her but I wouldn't go out with her'. To be fair, there still exists a double standard in society where if a man sleeps with loads of women he is seen as a stud but if a woman sleeps with a load of guys she is seen as a slut. Feminists regularly point this out and it is a fair point. We all know that this double standard exists in society and if we are to be fair-minded people, we would concede that it is a double standard that discriminates against women. I only bring this point up to demonstrate to the feminist that I am not dogmatically disagreeing with every point you make about society or culture. That seems to be the assumption that any feminist who learned of my disagreement of the claim that rape culture exists made. I am just disagreeing with you about rape culture.

But anyway, getting back to the attitudes that contribute to the alleged emergence of rape culture, I think that there has to be some distinctions made! There is a difference between saying that ' she dressed like a slut or drank too much so she was basically asking for it' and ' the way she dressed or the amount she drank was a contributing factor to why she got assaulted!'. The first statement implies that she deserved to get raped. The second attitude doesn't have this implication at all and actually seems to be the more prevalent attitude in society to me. All it does is say that she is partly responsible for what happened. It doesn't imply in any way that she was deserving of what happened. For example, twice in the last two years burglers snook into my house when I wasn't there and stole my laptop. This actually happened. They got into my house because I left the backdoor unlocked! It was just featherheadedness really. The question is : am I in any way responsible for what happened to me? Of course I am! I was negligent regarding the security of my house - they got into my house because I left the door unlocked! Does acknowledging that I am partly responsible mean that I am claiming that I deserved it. NO! Does it legitimize what the burglers did as morally permissable? Of course not! But most reasonable people would say, you should be more careful with regards your house security in future! But it seems to me that when it comes to rape, some feminists seem to be making the illogical leap from interpretting that 'acknowledging part responsibility' means 'deserving'! Or that it dismisses the horrific act of the rapist!
Having said that, I'm not advocating this line of argumentation. I think that would be a very insensitive and discompassionate line of argumentation to do. I used the burglary analogy to demonstrate the logic behind those who do advocate the 'partly responsble' line of argumentation. I used it to point out that there is a distinction between saying someone is 'partly responsible' and 'deserving'. However, I asbolutely dont think a woman should take any blame for getting raped based on the fact that she drank a lot or wore sexy, revealing clothes! Hopefully, you're with me on this one!

But anyway, here is more from the Gender Studies Student that I debated. She is continuing to define 'Rape Culture' as you can see : ''My best friend refusing to allow me to walk to my car alone at night is an example of the rape culture we live in. My mother telling me that sex before marriage would besmirch my purity and worth and giving no such warning to my brother is an example of rape culture. People thinking that a woman has to be violently assaulted and penetrated, that a man has to achieve orgasm as a result of his mistreatment of her body before she can feel violated and hurt is an example of rape culture. Men not being able to report sexual assaults by women or other men because they fear their masculinity will be undermined is an example of rape culture. I'll say again: it's a set of ideas and practices that lead to and justify rape because they delegitimize sexual autonomy, freedom and space. And Rape as it is traditionally understood is the embodiment of that mindset. These are all things that happen everyday and regularly, and I've only touched on the tip of how large the issue is so you absolutely cannot call it anything other than a culture. ''

I feel like this definition is so riddled with fallacies distortions of definitions and categorical errors that I don't even know where to start! Could someone point out to me what tradition has understood rape to be the embodiment of this mindset!? Because that just seems to me to be an outright bare assertion. I also don't know any person who believes that a man has to orgasm in order for a woman to be violated!! Surely, that is a minority view unless we live in a culture of complete psychopaths that I am not aware of!??

But again, I just want to tackle her definition. The definition of rape from the dictionary is ''unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.'' Why do we accept the definition of every single other word in the dictionary and use it accordingly while communicating through language but yet for some reason the rape culture advocate/feminist demands that we grant their definition of the word 'Rape' special privilege?? (Kindof Ironic that!!)

Secondly, she is putting the philosophical cart before the horse here! First of all, she talks about these things as if they ARE examples of 'Rape Culture'! What she really should be trying to argue is that these alleged societal norms are CAUSES of rape culture! For example, a heroin addict may site his/her introduction to cigarrettes or cannabis or alcohol as the ultimate cause of his/her heroin use. After all, they are not called gateway drugs for nothing! Sure, if there is widespread use of cannabis in a culture, we can perhaps analyze the facts and then conclude that we may live in a 'Cannabis Culture' based on the facts and the appropriate application of the word 'culture'! However, just because Cannabis is associated with being a Gateway drug to harder drugs like Heroin doesn't mean that therefore we can then conclude that we also live in a 'Heroin Culture'! You have to check to see if the Heroin Culture exists in the first place! She is basically saying that the cause and the effect are the same thing! And anyway, even if we were to be forgiving of this complete LOGIC FAIL, at the very least, for the occurances that she cites as examples of rape culture to hold any weight, she has to demonstrate that these CAUSES INEVITABLY lead to Rape Culture. She does no such thing! Just more bare assertion! (On a sidenote, it is also worth noting that cannabis is a widely used drug in Ireland and yet there isn't a general feeling in the country that we live in a 'cannabis culture' or at least it is a contentious claim based on our understand of the world 'culture'. Like I said, the reason nobody would really argue that we don't live in a 'TV-watching' culture is because we recognise that most of us do watch it and that's why the placement of the word 'culture' after 'TV-watching' is appropriate).

Anyway, I debated back and forth with this girl until she finally blocked me. I swear that I didn't say anything personal or derogatory to her. I just pointed out what I felt were hypocrisies in her position! This is the last quote of hers that I will cite : ''And we absolutely do live in a rape culture even by the standard culture is defined by. In my previous message I mentioned how people in privileged positions are seldom inclined to discuss realities beyond their own and with all due respect I think that's exactly what you've done. Nearly every instance you've mentioned as being overblown is an instance either myself or a close personal friend has had to go through. ''

Just to give you context, the instances which I was referring to in a previous message were catcalling and bum touching in clubs. I didn't say that they were overblown at all. I said that you can't appeal to these instances in claiming a rape culture because they technically aren't rape. I had argued that someone who has experienced catcalling claiming that they have been the victim of rape was comparabe to someone who has the flu comparing their plight to a victim of motor-neuron disease or cancer and perhaps, I was a bit insensitive to do so. She found this outrageously insensitive anyway. I guess I should have just stuck to the fact that catcalling or bum touching do not fit the dictionary definition of rape. But anyway, context aside! I pointed out a hugely arrogant hypocrisy in her position here. She is the one that is claiming that WE live in a RAPE CULTURE that effects all of us and yet, to evidence this claim she appeals to her own experiences and the experiences of her friends but dismisses my experience and the experience of the overwhelming majority of people I know! Are people's experiences of a culture only valid if they have had an experience which fits the narrative of the Rape Culture which she is pedalling??

It also exposes something altogether more sinister and dishonest. I am sure anyone who has taken any interest in this topic has often heard the feminist rebuttal 'but men get sexually assaulted too. We're not solely speaking for and trying to protect women'. This is just lip service! The phrase 'rape culture' is specifically designed to shame men! A feminist knows that whenever the average Joe Soap hears the word 'rape' , the image of a man penetrating a woman against her will comes to mind. And so it should because that image aligns with the dictionary definition of rape. When society hears the word 'RAPE', we think of an 'EVIL MAN'. But they want to include 'cat calling' , and 'bum touching' in this definition of rape too! (which I will restate completely that I don't condone and totally understand why women would find this behaviour both annoying and threatening). But my question is, if they really are so concerned about cat calling and bum touching, why don't they change the catchphrase to 'sexual assault culture'?? When you call it a 'sexual assault culture' , you are now at least definitionally entitled to appeal to instances of and statistics relating to cat calling or bum touching to justify your claims! Imagine you live in a culture where there are numerous bar brawls and phsical assaults. Would we call that a 'murder culture'?? Of course not, unless it was very common for these assaults to result in someone being murdered! Same logic applies to the inappropriate use of language in the case of 'rape culture' advocacy. But no! 'Sexual assault culture' despite being more definitionally honest, just isn't catchy enough! And more importantly, it doesn't draw images of 'EVIL MAN violating a woman in the most despicably evil and horrific manner' from our imaginations!

Not that I would argue for the existence of a 'Sexual Assault Culture' in Ireland and that that catchphrase itself isn't hyperbolic.

Which brings me to the question of 'Why object so strongly to Rape Culture?' The girl said to me ' you are not a rapist (I hope), so why be so offended?' My retort was 'you are not someone who has falsely accused anybody of rape. So using your own logic, are you not allowed to object to or be offended by the claim that we live in a 'culture rife with false rape accusations'! I certainly don't believe that statement and in fact, find it abhorrent and extremely dangerous! It paints women in a horrible light and if I was a woman, I wouldn't want to grow up in a country where the idea that women should be mistrusted is promoted. I don't want to be mistrusted by the opposie sex by default. If they are going to mistrust me, they at least better have very strong empirical evidence to justify this mistrust. The advocates of this ideology better be open to scrutiny and most importantly, they better be definitionally consisent, avoid logical fallacies and be completely intellectually honest while making their case! The stakes are too high not to demand that the do this! Imagine you are a woman facing this claim! It's a no brainer that you would be offended and look to scrutinise! If a claim like thiswas made in the media, whoever made it would be shamed until the cows came home! Even if he or she were to cite aneqdotes or incidences where false rape accusations happen , surely the standard line would be 'these are exceptional cases. Sure, most women don't even claim to have been raped so the idea that we live in a culture rife with false rape accusations ' is illogical and patently false if we are to have any respect for definitions of words and the English language , in general. But for some reason, we now live in a culture where a person like Louise O' Neill can appeal to exceptional cases and personal experience to concoct a narrative of a rape culture that paints men in an even more horrific light than the claim that 'we live in a culture rife with false rape accusations' does to women and we are supposed to grin our teeth and give this claim a free ride! If we try to scrutinise the claim, we're in danger of being called rape apologists or insensitive even though they don't realise that they are the ones being insensitive by pedalling this potentially poisonous and divisive narrative without overwhelmingly strong empirical evidence and watertight logical argumentation, to begin with!

This will be the last point I make on how preposterous it is to include cat calling and bum touching as examples of rape culture! Here is a hypothetical scenario (A ridiculously unlikely if not impossible scenario but it's a thought experiemnt in which you hope that people approach honestly)!: Imagine we lived in a society where it was proven that 96% of allegations of cat calling turned out to be false, 95% of allegations of bum touching turned out to be false but only 5% of actual penetrative rape accusations turned out to be false! We'd still be definitionally obliged to conclude that there is 'culture rife with false rape accusations'! Would a feminist in this situation , agree that it is fair to define cat calling and bum touching as rape? Surely not!!

In any case, even if there really was a rape culture....the Third Wave feminists don't seem to have read the History books on how social change is achieved and how oppressed people earn their freedoms! They either do it by force and all out war or they carry out a movement built on stoicism and trying to appeal to the good side of people's nature. The first wave of feminism was built on stoicism and the idea that women are strong and independent and capable of negotiating public life independently and capable of doing great works! These women would wince at the idea of 'safe spaces' and 'trigger warnings' that are being pedalled now! They'd wince at the constant reminding of those who are oppressing them of what ***** they are and how victimised they make them feel!! That certainly isn't how we made our progress! Sure even look at Martin Luther King! His speech didn't go like this : 'I'm having a nightmare! All you white mutha****as are bringing me down. I'm surrounded by you racist assholes and you all should be ashamed of yourself. ''Racist bigot culture'''...that's what I'm gonna call this and you boys betta check yo privilege cos I'm gonna get me some social change right about now'!!

Indeed, one could even say that their aggressie advocacy of the rape culture narrative is hurting their cause! (that's if they really care about their cause which is questionable, at least)! I mean, it may not be a coincidence that as the ideology of Rape Culture and other ideologues assosiated with Socil Justice Warriors have gained more traction and been given more credence by the mainstream media, we've witnessed Brexit and Trump! Maybe it is time to change tact! (I'm anti-Trump and Brexit, btw)!

I know, I know! I have been repeating myself a lot! The reason that I take this agument seriously is because I abhore rape so much. I am still very much open to the possibility that rape occurs more often than we are aware and that it is an issue worth taking very seriously and that there are fine lines that we need to talk about openly in public discourse with regards to what sort of behaviour violates a person's sexual autonomy and not just get fixated on this notion of rape...I dont take the subject matter lightly at all. However, I think 'rape culture' is divisive hyperbole which is proving to be detrimental to the cause of rape victims. If the advocates actually approached it in a less dramatic, aggressive and more reasonable manner and said something like ' rape occurrs more often than people think and we have statistics and case studies to prove this and we just want people to become more aware and to help us find solutions of how to tackle the situation', people would be more receptive to this cause.

As for dismantling the 'Rape Culture' movement, I feel like people like Wendy McIlroy and Christina Hoff Summers are the people we should be cheerleading and not jackasses like Milo Yionnapalous and Gavin McInnes! People like Milo and Gavin are actually hurtful to the cause of dismantling Rape Culture because they say such controversial and provocative things. When the feminists hear things like what Milo said about 'Father Michael' , their beliefs are strengthened because now they can say 'he was a rape apologist' all along! Christina and Wendy are much more measured , reasonable and scholarly in their research and anlaysis of the facts!

johnnyskeleton

Mein gott that's a lotta text to read.

Can you dumb it down please?

Smegmaniac17

Haha, well... I wanted to practice a fairly thorough rebuttal of the notion of rape culture and what better place to do it than Boards! Still a work in progress, though. I will dumb it down to this though : the big problem with the ideology of rape culture, is that they are defining the word 'culture' in a manner that is completely at odds with both the dictionary definition and how we understand its usage in ever other context and they cite alleged causes of rape culture as if they are examples of the effect that is rape culture which is a completely incoherent definition! For example, you could claim that widespread cannabis use may be a cause of heroin culture! It's incoherent to suggest that widespread cannabis use 'IS' an example of 'heroin culture'! But that is exactly the type of logic the rape culture advocate pedals. They say stuff like ' men living in a society where they are encouraged to be masculine and apha male' is an example of rape culture! If rape culture exists, it may well be a cause but it is incoherent to suggest that it is the effect. You have to determine that rape culture exists in the first place to suggest that this celebration of masculinity is a cause of rape culture. Just like you have to determine that there is a heroin culture before you can cite the widespread use of cannabis as a cause. You can't just say 'cannabis = heroin' or 'masculinity=rape' which is basically what they are doing in their argument!

mzungu

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

Haha, well... I wanted to practice a fairly thorough rebuttal of the notion of rape culture and what better place to do it than Boards! Still a work in progress, though. I will dumb it down to this though : the big problem with the ideology of rape culture, is that they are defining the word 'culture' in a manner that is completely at odds with both the dictionary definition and how we understand its usage in ever other context and they cite alleged causes of rape culture as if they are examples of the effect that is rape culture which is a completely incoherent definition! For example, you could claim that widespread cannabis use may be a cause of heroin culture! It's incoherent to suggest that widespread cannabis use 'IS' an example of 'heroin culture'! But that is exactly the type of logic the rape culture advocate pedals. They say stuff like ' men living in a society where they are encouraged to be masculine and apha male' is an example of rape culture! If rape culture exists, it may well be a cause but it is incoherent to suggest that it is the effect. You have to determine that rape culture exists in the first place to suggest that this celebration of masculinity is a cause of rape culture. Just like you have to determine that there is a heroin culture before you can cite the widespread use of cannabis as a cause. You can't just say 'cannabis = heroin' or 'masculinity=rape' which is basically what they are doing in their argument!

You can blame misguided intentions and incessant navel-gazing of 70s scholarly research for that. I believe the original intention was to raise awareness by using deliberately provocative language to try get the attention of the average Jane and Joe America. Of course, they shot themselves in the foot by going into full on hyperbolic mode because most people outside the activist sphere of influence just could not relate to the theorising of how US society somehow condoned and supported sexual assaults. Some would probably say they still can't!

Smegmaniac17

mzungu wrote: »

You can blame misguided intentions and incessant navel-gazing of 70s scholarly research for that. I believe the original intention was to raise awareness by using deliberately provocative language to try raise awareness among the average Jane and Joe America. Of course, they shot themselves in the foot by going into full on hyperbolic mode because most people outside the activist sphere of influence just could not relate to the theorising of how US society somehow condoned and supported sexual assaults. Some would probably say they still can't!

Why do you think they still can't??

mzungu

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

Why do you think they still can't??

It's late

, so the below is pretty much verbatim what I said earlier in the thread.

As I see it, the problem with the entire "rape culture" mantra is that like all theories, it can be moulded to mean whatever one wants it to mean. The scale starts at the act itself but then casts the net wide enough so that any form of the "male gaze" can be viewed as a being a part of it. This is where it runs into problems (and there are many), almost everybody (asexuals aside) buys magazines, watches movies, tv shows, adverts, music videos, video games etc where the gaze will be present, and this goes for both sexes. So, when you follow it down that rabbit hole, you find out that pretty much everybody who is living today is part of this grand conspiracy that normalises rape.

The fact is, it is mostly vested interests pushing the whole idea for commercial and political reasons. Very cynical when you think about it. Therefore, it is no surprise that the whole concept has been largely discredited and rape crisis networks do not subscribe to it in any way, shape or form. For example RAINN has suggested that by pushing the myth of "rape culture", it makes their job harder to help victims. This is what they wrote regarding the subject of:

RAINN wrote:

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campuses. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

While that may seem an obvious point, it has tended to get lost in recent debates. This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.

https://www.rainn.org/images/03-2014...mendations.pdf

If rape crisis networks think it is all a load of hokum, then that speaks volumes.

To answer your question, it fails to make any logical sense to large swathes of the population because it in no way describes their day-to-day reality. Unless of course their reality is a war zone somewhere in Sub-Saharan Africa. But in a western democracy? Not so much.