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Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Ralf and Florian

She presented a documentary on rape culture during the week on RTE which focused on the issue of sexual assault against females. It's interesting to note her response to a (male) follower would tweeted that it would be hilarious to see a remake of Deliverance featuring "pissed up dickheads on a drunken stag". For anyone who's not seen the movie Deliverance its about three city dwellers who go for a weekend fishing to what could be described as a backwoods community. Central to the storyline is when they are held captive and one of them raped by a bunch of rednecks.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/794195404145442816

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LLMMLL

orubiru wrote: »

What is craziest about all that is that it's evidence against the idea that we live in a Rape Culture or that Rape Culture is widespread.

Our culture has such a revulsion towards rape that a person making ANY statement that can even be twisted to remotely look like it might possibly be apologia for rape is jumped upon and run out of town by the pitchfork brigade

Is there such a thing as "Rape Hysteria Culture"?

Yeah most people don't come out with "she deserved it" it's usually more subtle.

If you go back through the thread on the woman who was assaulted by 3 men near the phoenix park earlier this year, there are a LOT of "what was she doing in that area at that time..." Comments.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

orubiru

mzungu wrote: »

Good god, there is a hefty amount of strawmannirg going on in this thread.

Poster 1: There are generally accepted rules of dress for certain occasions.
Poster 2: So you are saying rape is ok because what somebody wears turns men on? You misogynist!!!

:rolleyes:

What is craziest about all that is that it's evidence against the idea that we live in a Rape Culture or that Rape Culture is widespread.

Our culture has such a revulsion towards rape that a person making ANY statement that can even be twisted to remotely look like it might possibly be apologia for rape is jumped upon and run out of town by the pitchfork brigade.

As far as I can tell, nobody on this thread has said anything that's even in the same neighbourhood as "women who dress like slappers get what they deserve" and all that was ever said about LON's clothing is that it may not have been appropriate considering the subject matter of the documentary. Yet, there is some level of hysteria surrounding the conversation.

Surely, in a Rape Culture a statement such as "women who dress in skimpy clothes are asking for it" would be met with widespread nods of agreement and a general feel of "well, duh, that's obvious"? Here we are though. In reality comments on a woman's clothing or comments on a woman's behaviour are met head on by the angry mob.

So do we live in a culture where rape is normalised and/or minimised or do we live in a culture where people are becoming afraid to even discuss rape because they fear they will be branded a "rape apologist"? Or is it a bit of both?

Is there such a thing as "Rape Hysteria Culture"?

givyjoe

Widdershins wrote: »

One of the worst rapes in the country happened to a woman who had previously worked as a lapdancer. Her job doesn't make it any less horrible and she didn't deserve it any more than the next person. I was not one fraction less horrified when I learned of what happened to her, than I would've been if the victim had been a bank clerk or a nurse. 'Slapper' is a dehumanising, demeaning, belittling term. I know people probably don't think of it that way when they use it but it is.

Honestly, in my experience I haven't heard this word being used that often. When it has, it has always been by other women and mostly used when jealous of said 'slapper'.

From my point of view, sexual promiscuity is a positive thing as far I'm concerned, except if my other half is bopping other dudes behind my back

Widdershins

Flimpson wrote: »

"I dress like this for myself" is a line that gets used by some women in regard to dressing in revealing outfits. If that were true, as pointed out by Pete above, they'd be doing so when watching TV alone or doing jobs around the house.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying attention from the opposite sex (or anyone) because of how you are presented. There's no shame in admitting you want to make yourself attractive to men - it's normal, natural behaviour. There is an element of dressing for yourself too of course but to say this is the sole reason for choosing such attire is very dishonest.

If you wear good clothes while doing jobs around the house they'll get wrecked. People wear pyjamas and tracksuits because they think they're comfortable and tv watching is their relaxation time. The rest of the time lots of women actually do dress up a bit for no particular reason-I do. Takes the same effort to put on a nice top as a boring one.

Goya

"I dress like this for myself" is a line that gets used by some women in regard to dressing in revealing outfits. If that were true, as pointed out by Pete above, they'd be doing so when watching TV alone or doing jobs around the house.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying attention from the opposite sex (or anyone) because of how you are presented. There's no shame in admitting you want to make yourself attractive to men - it's normal, natural behaviour. There is an element of dressing for yourself too of course but to say this is the sole reason for choosing such attire is very dishonest.

pumpkin4life

Louise O Neill profile. Feel free to correct. I know nothing about her, but this kind of personality I'm seeing more and more, based on comments here and on Twitter. I also read her shìtheap of a book.

Distant mother/father relationship/a lack of parental bonding. Was raised when she was a kid in a creche possibly.
Manipulated on an emotional level when she was a kid. Relationship with boyfriend is emotionally very distant/disparate.
Smart but not smart smart.
Education system with no proper differentiation between right and wrong.
Ended up in fights but had to dull emotions in relation to this.
Exposed to porn/hypersexualised at a young age.
Constructed a false self to align with her parents wishes. This is what attracts a lot of smart but not smart smart women to feminism because its easy to grasp, but easier still to make sound intellectual/profound. This achievement, grandiose false self personality means that when her second book or whatever flops, she'll have a meltdown.

How do you trigger meltdowns in people like this? Pity them.

Widdershins

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

There is a VAST difference between a lapdancer or any kind of sex worker - they are doing it for a living and good on them.

I stand by my point that you cannot be sexually aggressive with man, in public, and then claim you were raped because you regret it in the cold, sober light of day.

Absolutely. But she was a glamorous dresser and some people who I believe were jealous made that kind of remark based on her style dress. So generally speaking, to some people, it might not be the same thing if it happened to someone they thought of in those terms, if you see what I mean.

I agree with most of your posts btw and I think I get the spirit in which you said it. I'm thinking more of the times I've heard it said in person, about other people.

Mortpourvelo

There is a VAST difference between a lapdancer or any kind of sex worker - they are doing it for a living and good on them.

I stand by my point that you cannot be sexually aggressive with man, in public, and then claim you were raped because you regret it in the cold, sober light of day.

Widdershins

One of the worst rapes in the country happened to a woman who had previously worked as a lapdancer. Her job doesn't make it any less horrible and she didn't deserve it any more than the next person. I was not one fraction less horrified when I learned of what happened to her, than I would've been if the victim had been a bank clerk or a nurse. 'Slapper' is a dehumanising, demeaning, belittling term. I know people probably don't think of it that way when they use it but it is.

Mortpourvelo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Well that's a very dangerous thought.

So if a girl is on the likes of Geordie shore, where they show people having sex, you wouldn't believe if she was raped?

Jesus Christ almighty, this board gets worse.

In the words of Loretta from The Life Of Brian, "Don't You Oppress Me!!".

My thoughts are my thoughts, I would have assumed you'd be in favour of women holding opinions.

Or is that only when they fit in with your Gender Studies curriculum nonsense ?

Outlaw Pete

mzungu wrote: »

That was my reading of what was meant and I am open to correction by the poster if I misread it.

Nope, you read it perfectly.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why is it always discussed about women dressing too provocatively. I have never ever heard anyone say about men dressing too provocatively.

You don't hear it being said of men too often because men don't dress to titillate to the degree that women do and if a man were to do it he would most like be having the crack, like Sacha Baron Cohen for example or they would be honest about why they were doing it. I simply cannot see a man dressing in a very sexually provocative fashion and then harrumphing when they get the very reaction they elicited. Which is why I spoke about honesty earlier. I have no issues for example with women going to premieres dressed like this for example, if they are honest about their intention: to get attention.

Its such a load of controlling bullsh*t.

Well actually, in my opinion the ones attempting to control are the ones dressing sexually suggestively. From when we are young teens we first notice how much what we wear can have an effect on others. I remember wearing a sleeveless denim jacket and a Metal Up Your Ass t-shirt primarily cause of the reaction I got from others. Dressing that way got me attention and made sure I was seen just how I wanted to be seen and nothing really changes in that regard as we age. How we dress sends messages and the more effort we put into how we dress, the more we are trying to control what others think of us.. be that just that we are being respectful... or that we want to others to be sexually attracted to us (and the many points in-between of course). This is why nobody wears a three-piece suit or a fcuk-me-pumps when spending a night in alone watching TV.

Dick phelan wrote: »

Clothing is never an invitation for sexual assault but don't be complaining over a few glances from lads it's bound to happen if you wear certain clothes.

Indeed. Dave Chappele put it best with the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

kunst nugget wrote: »

I tried dressing provocatively once by wearing skin tight jeans that accentuated the shape of my penis and ballsac while giving my buns of steel a firm lift.

You should have just bought a pair of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4pOIlytYEw

[Deleted User]

Widdershins wrote: »

I know you didn't mention a third party I just wanted to explore the idea of what a slapper is and what the kind of man who would rape, would think about her, as well as what ordinary people think about her.

If I was out and saw a girl grinding/stradling a lad I would think she's either ; with the guy, maybe gonna hook up with the guy, having a flirt with him, is probably tipsy and just having fun. I wouldn't for a second think that automatically she'd be the same with me or the another fella at all.

The Rape of Lucretia

mzungu wrote: »

Poster 1: There are generally accepted rules of dress for certain occasions.
Poster 2: So you are saying rape is ok because what somebody wears turns men on? You misogynist!!!

I dont think any woman dresses to be raped, how dare you say that. They dress to be provocative and to attract men. But not necessarily to be raped. That is a scandalous contention mzungu.

[Deleted User]

DredFX wrote: »

Surprised this trainwreck hasn't been locked yet.

Who, Louise? I'm sure she has.

The Rape of Lucretia

Zulu wrote: »

Because womens fashion is more inclined to be provocative?

Well of course. It is designed to attract a man.

Of course women will see it from an angle of looking well, feeling good about themselves, or that they dress that way for themselves and not others. But they feel that way because they feel they have a good chance of attracting male attention. So its really only a restatement of the same thing. Provocative dress is just ramping that up.

Widdershins

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Well that's a very dangerous thought.

So if a girl is on the likes of Geordie shore, where they show people having sex, you wouldn't believe if she was raped?

Jesus Christ almighty, this board gets worse.

Hmm. A bit like that woman in Tralee..it was pointed out by the rapists's supporters that she was basically known for promiscuity.

Widdershins

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

My point - badly made I grant you - is that should said woman claim to have been raped by the straddlee, then I would not believe it for a second.

I never said anything about a third party.

However, look at the sort on the likes of Geordie Shore and the Valleys etc. You see them in court all poshed up crying and you're not gonna believe a word.

I know you didn't mention a third party I just wanted to explore the idea of what a slapper is and what the kind of man who would rape, would think about her, as well as what ordinary people think about her.

mzungu

Good god, there is a hefty amount of strawmannirg going on in this thread.

Poster 1: There are generally accepted rules of dress for certain occasions.
Poster 2: So you are saying rape is ok because what somebody wears turns men on? You misogynist!!!

:rolleyes:

Dick phelan

What's this about not judging people for what they wear? Of course we judge people by what they wear, if a girl is wearing very skimpy clothing of course it isn't an invitation to rape them but they can hardly complain if they get lads looking at them, people dress nicely in places like clubs because they do want to attract the attention of the opposite sex in my experience, everyone get's judged by what they wear, if i say a lad with a baseball cap white socks tucked in to tracksuit i think there's a high chance he's a scumbag likewise if a girl is dressed in a really low cut top and heels i think she probably wants people to look and admire how she looks. Clothing is never an invitation for sexual assault but don't be complaining over a few glances from lads it's bound to happen if you wear certain clothes.

Zulu

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What's it got to do with you if what she's wearing is provocative?

'I'm turned on, so woman must cover up!'

Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

What are you bleating on about?!? I didn't say that - YOU did.

Jesus wept woman. :rolleyes:

givyjoe

midlandsmissus wrote: »

That's the kind of insanity I just can't argue with.

The insanity of a dress code in work which I was clearly referring to? The insanity I've already specifically asked you to comment on.

I'll try again so.. Do you think you should be allowed to wear whatever the hell you want to work? Man or woman. It's a simple enough question to start with.

midlandsmissus

givyjoe wrote: »

I'm scratching my head here.. yes, i am for real. No one said a woman should cover up because it 'makes us men horny'. YOU did. We are almost all saying, that there are quite clearly appropriate and inappropriate dress depending on the circumstance.

Coming out with such unbelievable nonsense that 'i can wear what i want, whenever i want' is just ridiculous.

That's the kind of insanity I just can't argue with.

givyjoe

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Are you for real?

I'm scratching my head here.. yes, i am for real. No one said a woman should cover up because it 'makes us men horny'. YOU did. We are almost all saying, that there are quite clearly appropriate and inappropriate dress depending on the circumstance.

Coming out with such unbelievable nonsense that 'i can wear what i want, whenever i want' is just ridiculous.

midlandsmissus

givyjoe wrote: »

I dont know, do you..? You said it..:eek:

Are you for real?

givyjoe

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What's it got to do with you if what she's wearing is provocative?

'I'm turned on, so woman must cover up!'

Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

I dont know, do you..? You said it..:eek:

DEFTLEFTHAND

kunst nugget wrote: »

When women hold those opinions, it's because of internalised misogyny so it's still men's fault.

Which ironically is incredibly sexist.

Such a theory suggests that all women lack the required mental capacity for independent thought and critical thinking.

midlandsmissus

Zulu wrote: »

Because womens fashion is more inclined to be provocative?
I can't ever remember seeing a man rock up to the Oscars in a see through tux, or a suit with a slit upto the ball-sack.

I'm sure such items of apparel exist, so I must be wrong.

Right on. Goddamn patriarchy oppressing the common women. Again. Effin fascists.

What's it got to do with you if what she's wearing is provocative?

'I'm turned on, so woman must cover up!'

Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

kunst nugget

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why is it always discussed about women dressing too provocatively. I have never ever heard anyone say about men dressing too provocatively.

Its such a load of controlling bullsh*t.

I tried dressing provocatively once by wearing skin tight jeans that accentuated the shape of my penis and ballsac while giving my buns of steel a firm lift.

People still won't like me in the eye. Damned patriarchy…

Zulu

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why is it always discussed about women dressing too provocatively.

Because womens fashion is more inclined to be provocative?

I have never ever heard anyone say about men dressing too provocatively.

I can't ever remember seeing a man rock up to the Oscars in a see through tux, or a suit with a slit upto the ball-sack.

I'm sure such items of apparel exist, so I must be wrong.

Its such a load of controlling bullsh*t.

Right on. Goddamn patriarchy oppressing the common women. Again. Effin fascists.