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Child Item

Marie Stopes clinic suspends services

Smondie

I am shocked and appalled that clinics providing medical services to women seeking abortions have been found to have such serious failings, services have been suspended with immediate effect, from providing abortions to the following groups of women:

-Suspended termination of pregnancy provision for under-18s and vulnerable groups of women.
-Suspended terminations under general anaesthetic or conscious sedation (over 12 weeks pregnant)
-Suspended all surgical terminations at their Norwich centre.

The Care Quality Commission has raised a number of concerns over patient safety.
The issues raised were poor governance arrangements, leading to what it called "specific immediate concerns" about consent and safeguarding.

It was not satisfied about training and competence for terminations which take place under general anaesthetic or conscious sedation

Each year 70,000 terminations are carried out at Marie stopes clinics with an estimated 10, 000 Irish women being treated. Inspections of clinics only started in March of this year. I don't think it's acceptable to have medical treatment in what appears to be a sub standard environment.

The UK Government has informed Marie Stopes International that Ministers will not give approval for further clinics in accordance with their statutory role to offer termination services until the CQC are satisfied that their concerns have been fully addressed.

Women are being accomadated in other clinics and they are trying to minimise the effect of the suspension of services, although some women, especially those closer to the time limit maybe effected. There is a helpline to call from ireland in the nhs link below.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-37135380

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2016/08/marie-stopes-int-clinics/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/19/marie-stopes-suspends-some-abortion-services-over-safety-issues
http://www.thejournal.ie/marie-stopes-abortion-services-suspended-2938689-Aug2016/

It's not the first time practices at marie stopes has come under controversy.

Women have died after leaving the clinic
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/medics-face-trial-after-irish-woman-dies-after-abortion-1.2255918

A doctor struck off after botching an abortion
http://m.independent.ie/world-news/europe/doctor-struck-off-as-abortion-nearly-kills-irish-woman-26798027.html

Marie stopes advocates that no doctors needs to see a patient before a termination, even thought the government recommends two.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10575108/Abortion-on-demand-gets-Government-green-light.html

I find it interesting that there is not more discussion from rights organisations about this. Many women who have received sub standard care find it difficult to raise a complaint in case they are labelled "anti abortion". Often valid complaints are ignored.

I think Irish services should stop recommending this clinic to women seeking a termination with immediate effect.

Do you think that Irish services should stop recommending this clinic to women seeking terminations?

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Stheno

Smondie wrote: »

Inspections only began last march. Inspectors at the marie stopes clinic found breeches of protocols so serious that services were suspended with immediate effect.

Why don't you tell the women that are booked in this week that's equilivant to thier favourite take away being closed? I doubt they'd agree on that.

They can be moved to another clinic though, and I'm sure the ifpa will not be referring to affected clinics.

Are you personally affected by this that you are so concerned?

Smondie

Stheno wrote: »

They can be moved to another clinic though, and I'm sure the ifpa will not be referring to affected clinics.

Are you personally affected by this that you are so concerned?

The problem is termination places need to be found for so many women, other clinics are under pressure to accommodate them all.

You also seem very concerned. Are you personally affected by this?

Stheno

Smondie wrote: »

The problem is termination places need to be found for so many women, other clinics are under pressure to accommodate them all.

You also seem very concerned. Are you personally affected by this?

Not at all, from a personal view point I've no interest in this, given that I'm past child bearing age.

I'd not class 250 women a week as many given this is a short term issue, and there are far more clinics than just Marie Stopes available in the UK. GIven that abortion procedures have timeframes, I'm sure that they can be accomodated albeit with a bit of travel etc.

Smondie

Stheno wrote: »

Not at all, from a personal view point I've no interest in this, given that I'm past child bearing age.

I'd not class 250 women a week as many given this is a short term issue, and there are far more clinics than just Marie Stopes available in the UK. GIven that abortion procedures have timeframes, I'm sure that they can be accomodated albeit with a bit of travel etc.

Maybe that's why you can be so glib about it, comparing it to getting a bag of chips, because it doesn't personally affect you.

It's not just 250 women affected. Those are the ones that are affected this week. What about the ones last week and the week before and the week before that etc, who had terminations carried out in subpar conditions?

Stheno

Smondie wrote: »

Maybe that's why you can be so glib about it, comparing it to getting a bag of chips, because it doesn't personally affect you.

It's not just 250 women affected. Those are the ones that are affected this week. What about the ones last week and the week before and the week before that etc, who had terminations carried out in subpar conditions?

Well it's 250 women per week affected, for all those from when issues were identified, I'm sure they will be redirected to other services.

For those who suffered sub par treatment, they should be seeking counselling etc, or there should be additional services offered.

I never actually said it was 250 women affected, again, you appear to be unable to interpret what you respond to.

Smondie

Stheno wrote: »

I never actually said it was 250 women affected, again, you appear to be unable to interpret what you respond to.

I never actually said you did.

Do the issues surrounding consent not bother you? are you happy that some women may be having terminations performed without thier consent?

Smondie

Stheno wrote: »

... I'm sure that they can be accomodated albeit with a bit of travel etc.

Same could be said for Irish women travelling to the uk

fits

Smondie wrote: »

are you happy that some women may be having terminations performed without thier consent?

How on earth did you deduce that?

eviltwin

Stheno wrote: »

Well it's 250 women per week affected, for all those from when issues were identified, I'm sure they will be redirected to other services.

For those who suffered sub par treatment, they should be seeking counselling etc, or there should be additional services offered.

I never actually said it was 250 women affected, again, you appear to be unable to interpret what you respond to.

If the clinic has to close then it has to happen. But it's making an already difficult situation worse and adding more worry and expense onto those affected. Hardly the same as having to change your chipper.

Smondie

fits wrote: »

How on earth did you deduce that?

The issue of consent is one of the concerns raised by the cqc. They have suspended services for under 18's and vulnerable people.

I find it interesting campaigners are shouting "no woman should be forced to carry a child" but silence from most campaigners on the issue of abortions without consent. it undermines the "her body, her choice" aspect of the agenda.

meeeeh

I completely agree with you OP. Irish state should provide safe abortions in Ireland. It's wrong that Irish women have to travel to another country and rely on health services there doing their job. I think you should send protest letter to Irish government to repeal the eight and stop endangering women's lives here.

That is the aim of this thread isn't it? To highlight the plight of Irish women whose basic human rights are violated? And the dangers they face because of it.

eviltwin

Smondie wrote: »

The issue of consent is one of the concerns raised by the cqc. They have suspended services for under 18's and vulnerable people.

I find it interesting campaigners are shouting "no woman should be forced to carry a child" but silence from most campaigners on the issue of abortions without consent. it undermines the "her body, her choice" aspect of the agenda.

Seeing as we don't have abortions here and those who travel do so in confidence what exactly do you want people to do? No one in favour of repealing the 8th wants to see forced or coerced abortion. It happens but when women are travelling outside the state there is little that can be done. At least if abortion happened here there is a greater chance of an at risk woman being identified.

RDM_83 again

Stheno wrote: »

And would you not agree the situation you have outline shows that regulation and inspection is working to ensure that the spirit of the legislation is being adhered to?

It's kinda like posting that your favourite takeaway is closed cos it breached a food safety issue. Frankly I'd welcome the independant oversight, and applaud the very public admission of action shown in this case.

Did those doctors that were caught by undercover journalists falsifying paper work face any proper sanction? all I can see online is that they were suspended for 3 months which is a very mild slap on the wrist for breaking the law.

Lux23

From experience BPAS are as bad, I accompanied a friend recently and we were out on the street 20 minutes after she woke up. Part of the problem with travelling to get a termination.

Smondie

meeeeh wrote: »

I completely agree with you OP. Irish state should provide safe abortions in Ireland. It's wrong that Irish women have to travel to another country and rely on health services there doing their job. I think you should send protest letter to Irish government to repeal the eight and stop endangering women's lives here.

That is the aim of this thread isn't it? To highlight the plight of Irish women whose basic human rights are violated? And the dangers they face because of it.

It's all well and good to keep shouting repeal the 8th. But to ignore and fail to address situations which have arisen in a country (uk) with no 8th is naive. Unless you see no issue with unsafe practices and abortions been performed with dubious consent?
Repealing the 8th is not a magical fix all solution.

Grayson

Smondie wrote: »

It's all well and good to keep shouting repeal the 8th. But to ignore and fail to address situations which have arisen in a country (uk) with no 8th is naive. Unless you see no issue with unsafe practices and abortions been performed with dubious consent?
Repealing the 8th is not a magical fix all solution.

Having adequate safety procedures is a separate issue to repealing the 8th. There's very strict laws covering private hospitals in Ireland. They're not going to disappear once the 8th is removed.

Smondie

Grayson wrote: »

Having adequate safety procedures is a separate issue to repealing the 8th. There's very strict laws covering private hospitals in Ireland. They're not going to disappear once the 8th is removed.

Well this thread is about safety procedure and abortions without consent, issues raised by the cqc and the reasons why Marie stope services have been suspended. Not sure why the 8th has been brought in to it at all, they are separate issues as you say. People just are shouting about repealing the 8th to deflect from the safety concerns as it doesn't suit the agenda.

Do you think there are no laws for hospitals in the UK?

Grayson

Smondie wrote: »

Well this thread is about safety procedure and abortions without consent, issues raised by the cqc and the reasons why Marie stope services have been suspended. Not sure why the 8th has been brought in to it at all, they are separate issues as you say. People just are shouting about repealing the 8th to deflect from the safety concerns as it doesn't suit the agenda.

Do you think there are no laws for hospitals in the UK?

Firstly, I was replying to your post which mentioned the 8th and just stating that they are two separate things.

Secondly, if any clinic, it doesn't matter if it's a marie stopes clinic or one providing cosmetic surgery, is not meeting basic standards, it should be closed and there should be an investigation.
No-one here is arguing with that. I don't think anyone in this thread or any other thinks that a medical facility should be allowed to function without proper safety protocols. So I'm not sure why this thread is really here. There's not really anything to discuss. It's bad, we all agree.

Smondie

Grayson wrote: »

Firstly, I was replying to your post which mentioned the 8th and just stating that they are two separate things.

Secondly, if any clinic, it doesn't matter if it's a marie stopes clinic or one providing cosmetic surgery, is not meeting basic standards, it should be closed and there should be an investigation.
No-one here is arguing with that. I don't think anyone in this thread or any other thinks that a medical facility should be allowed to function without proper safety protocols. So I'm not sure why this thread is really here. There's not really anything to discuss. It's bad, we all agree.

But I had already said they were 2 seperate things in the post you replied to? Anyhow we both agree on that.

I'll think you'll find that not everyone is willing to condem the Marie Stopes unsafe practices or abortions with dubious consent. That can be clearly seen by posters who ignore the issues and shout about repealing the 8th.

The thread is here for discussion.

How would the problem of underage girls and dubious consent be addressed here?

dudara

At the end of the day, an abortion is a surgical procedure, and is subject to high standards. While it's obviously not good that issues were uncovered, it is good that steps are being taken to address them. It's what I would expect in any country with a well-functioning medical system. And it will benefit all patients, irrespective of where they come from.

meeeeh

Smondie wrote: »

But I had already said they were 2 seperate things in the post you replied to? Anyhow we both agree on that.

I'll think you'll find that not everyone is willing to condem the Marie Stopes unsafe practices or abortions with dubious consent. That can be clearly seen by posters who ignore the issues and shout about repealing the 8th.

The thread is here for discussion.

How would the problem of underage girls and dubious consent be addressed here?

Actually they are not that separate. When you legalize something you can implement standards like in this case. If it's illegal you get unsafe practices without supervision and anyone knowing that they are unsafe. Your posted some strong arguments in favour of legalizing abortion.

Smondie

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually they are not that separate. When you legalize something you can implement standards like in this case. If it's illegal you get unsafe practices without supervision and anyone knowing that they are unsafe. Your posted some strong arguments in favour of legalizing abortion.

If it's illegal you get unsafe practices....like what has been going on in England?

meeeeh

Smondie wrote: »

If it's illegal you get unsafe practices....like what has been going on in England?

No if it's legal they have to sort out stuff before they operate again. If it's illegal this would continue to go on without anyone intervening.

indioblack

Smondie wrote: »

If it's illegal you get unsafe practices....like what has been going on in England?

Don't go there, then.
If you have issues with abortion in Ireland, then that's where they should be sorted.

Smondie

indioblack wrote: »

Don't go there, then.
If you have issues with abortion in Ireland, then that's where they should be sorted.

Issues with abortions in ireland or not,

The fact remains that women are travelling and have travelled to this brand of clinic and have received sub standard care.

The clinics are not fit for purpose. Irish services should stop recommending this brand.

Issues around dubious consent have been raised.

For example Do you think underage girls shod be forced to have termination's by thier parents. What safeguards could be put in place to stop this?

indioblack

Smondie wrote: »

Issues with abortions in ireland or not,

The fact remains that women are travelling and have travelled to this brand of clinic and have received sub standard care.

The clinics are not fit for purpose. Irish services should stop recommending this brand.

Issues around dubious consent have been raised.

For example Do you think underage girls shod be forced to have termination's by thier parents. What safeguards could be put in place to stop this?

The only safeguards I can think of would be legal ones.
With enforcement and penalty in both countries.

eviltwin

Smondie wrote: »

Issues with abortions in ireland or not,

The fact remains that women are travelling and have travelled to this brand of clinic and have received sub standard care.

The clinics are not fit for purpose. Irish services should stop recommending this brand.

Issues around dubious consent have been raised.

For example Do you think underage girls shod be forced to have termination's by thier parents. What safeguards could be put in place to stop this?

Any underage pregnant girl should have a social worker assigned to her case. There should be an investigation and her wishes should be dealt with by an independent person. That can't possibly happen if the girl is going outside the jurisdiction though. Same with a vulnerable woman. If abortion was available here we could ensure the woman has pre abortion counselling on her own. It won't stop all abuses but banning abortion to all isn't the solution either.

Grayson

Smondie wrote: »

But I had already said they were 2 seperate things in the post you replied to? Anyhow we both agree on that.

I'll think you'll find that not everyone is willing to condem the Marie Stopes unsafe practices or abortions with dubious consent. That can be clearly seen by posters who ignore the issues and shout about repealing the 8th.

The thread is here for discussion.

How would the problem of underage girls and dubious consent be addressed here?

That is a moral and ethical minefield. There's so many factors to consider. Let's take a simple case. I think the youngest ever girl to give birth was something like 9 years old. There have been many other pregnancies reported about that age (9, 10, 11) but nearly every one has resulted in the death of the child. And I think most of those pregnancies were as a result of rape or incest. In that case it could be seen to be a life saving treatment since the girl is in actual danger from the pregnancy.

Now I said that's a simple case. It's not really but it's a hell of a lot more simple that a 15-16 year old, who with proper medical care, doesn't face the same medical risks. It is still riskier than it is for an adult, but not as risky. Also a 15-16 year old is more capable of making a decision. In that case I'm honestly not sure. Like I said it's an ethical nightmare. I'm not sure what the law is regarding other procedures. Can a parent make a 15 year old get a transplant or any other surgical treatment against their will?

What are your thoughts?

Smondie

eviltwin wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

Issues with abortions in ireland or not,

The fact remains that women are travelling and have travelled to this brand of clinic and have received sub standard care.

The clinics are not fit for purpose. Irish services should stop recommending this brand.

Issues around dubious consent have been raised.

For example Do you think underage girls shod be forced to have termination's by thier parents. What safeguards could be put in place to stop this?

Any underage pregnant girl should have a social worker assigned to her case. There should be an investigation and her wishes should be dealt with by an independent person. That can't possibly happen if the girl is going outside the jurisdiction though. Same with a vulnerable woman. If abortion was available here we could ensure the woman has pre abortion counselling on her own. It won't stop all abuses but banning abortion to all isn't the solution either.

A social worker appointed is a good idea. pre and post abortion conselling is available here. Abortion isn't banned here. There are several reasons it can be performed. Do you mean abortion on demand?

eviltwin

Smondie wrote: »

A social worker appointed is a good idea. pre and post abortion conselling is available here. Abortion isn't banned here. There are several reasons it can be performed. Do you mean abortion on demand?

I'm confused as to what situations you mean. A social worker has to be involved here if an underage girl is pregnant. Or a vulnerable one, I had one when expecting my first child. Pre and post counselling is sketchy at best and its not compulsory. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a teenager having an abortion without impartial advice. A counsellor will also probably be better than a gp or other professional at getting information.