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Child Item

Vegan parents should be jailed.

Smondie

According to a bill being put before the Italian parliament forcing your child to be vegan is child abuse as it deprives children of thier nutritional needs and vegan parents should be subject to censure and possibly even jail time.

I think to intentially deprive children of a good steak because of your own beliefs is child abuse

http://www.thejournal.ie/vegan-diet-children-poll-2923955-Aug2016/

The thinking behind the bill is that such a diet isn’t sufficient for a child’s nutritional needs, after a number of high-profile cases in Italy in which children were taken into care after becoming malnourished.

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OldNotWIse

Jawgap wrote: »

Likewise - life without a bacon on freshly buttered soft bread.....of a Sunday morning reading the papers? Manna from heaven!!

You won't live longer on a veggie/vegan diet......

......but it will feckin seem a lot longer

For some of us who find the idea of consuming meat abhorrent, life certainly does not feel longer because of our choices

It's all subjective and up to the individual.

TheDoc

Armies that conquered the known world marched and fought on stale bread and wine and now we have people who think milk is bad for you.

For all the **** Clint Eastwood gets, he's correct in some things...

Wigglepuppy

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

What are the other healthy options, exactly?

Hats off to people who have gone to the effort of entertaining the above, but when a person actually asks what are the healthy alternatives to a vegan diet, you can fairly assume that they're not being genuine.

failinis

meeeeh wrote: »

As much as I could read the links they suggest that meat has some health benefits. Less than 500g per week of red meat (two steaks) does not significantly increase the risk of cancer. Processed meat like other processed foods is more damaging.

Also there is a difference between established link to cancer and that link being significant.

I never said it was really unhealthy, they just asked for links, and I remember reading about it when it was a story.

I don't eat red meat at all (taste reasons) but still have poultry and odd time fish - plus supplements.

Hercule Poirot

I love eating meat, love the taste and everything but I do not have a problem with parents giving their children a vegan diet on condition they are fully nourished then there is nothing wrong. Is it any worse than the parent who feeds their child microwaves dinners every night with a take-away chaser?

Maybe the Italian government should take a look at the rapid rise of obesity and it's punishing effects on young, malnourished children before they start criticising a lifestyle that isn't exactly known for producing dangerous effects on health and well-being.

Snickers Man

"Show me a vegan and I'll show you a face full of zits!"

Ruby Wax

Smondie

The only thing wrong with having a good steak is overcooking it. .

OldNotWIse

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

Hats off to people who have gone to the effort of entertaining the above, but when a person actually asks what are the healthy alternatives to a vegan diet, you can fairly assume that they're not being genuine.

I figure they are just looking for material to pull apart. I tend not to entertain such questions unless someone is genuinely curious. Otherwise it is tantamount to justifying your choices and why should anybody have to do that? I have my own reasons for choosing my lifestyle and don't need to justify it to anyone else, not least someone who is only interested in a "but pigs taste so nice/I bet the cardboard box your burger came in tastes better" jibes. Such lines are trotted out with overwhelming predictability.

meeeeh

failinis wrote: »

meeeeh wrote: »

As much as I could read the links they suggest that meat has some health benefits. Less than 500g per week of red meat (two steaks) does not significantly increase the risk of cancer. Processed meat like other processed foods is more damaging.

Also there is a difference between established link to cancer and that link being significant.

I never said it was really unhealthy, they just asked for links, and I remember reading about it when it was a story.

I never liked red meat due to taste (yeah maybe my taste buds are broken) so I only eat limited poultry and fish along with supplements.

This is not aimed at you but a general point about reporting at that time. The research establishing link between meat and cancer was evaluated as very strong. But that only meant there is very strongly proven link. How strong is the actual link (weak in moderation) is another story.

We certainly eat too much meat as a society but perfectly OK diet can be achieved without excluding major food groups.

andekwarhola

Not a chance our kids would be on a vegan diet while we decide what they eat.

My wife is vegetarian and I'm a pretty infrequent meat eater but the kids still have meat 2-3 times a week, with the rest of our (proper, not processed) meals being fish or vegetarian.

Got to love the extremists as ever. The choice obviously being either a vegan or Vicky Pollard Iceland TV meal household. Whatever.

As for putting carnivore pets on a vegan diet, get a fcuking grip.

Jawgap

OldNotWIse wrote: »

For some of us who find the idea of consuming meat abhorrent, life certainly does not feel longer because of our choices It's all subjective and up to the individual.

Definitely a valid lifestyle choice and i went veggie for a few weeks after my first visit to a slaughterhouse.

Wigglepuppy

andekwarhola wrote: »

Got to love the extremists as ever. The choice obviously being either a vegan or Vicky Pollard Iceland TV meal household.

And then pretending not to know what alternatives there are in between these two extremes when pointed out.

Maximus Alexander

These kinds of threads always just make me want a steak. I think I'll have steak for dinner.

Samaris

There is no real issue with an adult human who has finished growing and developing eating a vegan diet, as long as they have the sense to do the research and ensure they are adequately compensated for missing nutrients. Many of these can be replaced by pulses and the like, but if vitamin pills are needed, it's best to take the pills.

The issue is when poorly informed parents assume that their children can live healthily on an absolutely vegan diet without other supplements.

Two examples:
http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/

Exactly what the article says. The baby was eleven days old when she died, suffering from severe deficiencies in essential vitamin A and B12, both of which tend to be hard to get from a vegan diet.

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/12-year-old-vegan-has-the-degenerating-bones-of-80-year-old/
An older child, again fed a strictly vegan diet. She was admitted to a Glasgow hospital suffering from rickets and degenerating bones in the spine.

It is perfectly possible to feed your child (or yourself!) too much meat. Ireland is particularly bad for it, as it happens. One meat meal a week is enough to get the vitamins needed to stay healthy*. Reading through the thread, I noted that even vegan/vegetarian posters specifically do not force their children to have only a vegan diet, but rather either because the other parent eats meat every so often and cooks it, or they otherwise allow their children to have meat every so often, and that their children are hale and healthy. This is great, although it doesn't prove or disprove the "veganism is fine for kids" debate, because the children are not strictly vegan.

As always, there is a sensible middle ground. I think 5 years in jail for the parents of that poor baby is harsh for ignorance, but if a child is obviously suffering malnutrition (easier to tell in older children than babies), then even a strict vegan parent must take note of it or they -are-, however ignorantly, abusing their child.

*Caveat - this is a recommended amount, but differing body types, metabolism etcetera will influence it obviously.

Turtle_

Jawgap wrote: »

I'll think you'll find the 'welfare classes' as you so delightfully put it, have a poor dietary status for a range of complicated reasons.....

.....for a start large chunks of our cities are 'food deserts' when it comes to fresh fruit, veg, meat etc

....education can be a problem but not as much as you think - most 'welfare class' parents know enough about healthy eating to able to produce a healthy menu for their families.....

.....however, what they lack is income to do so. When they buy, prepare and cook food they need to guarantee it'll be eaten - they have no margin in the budget for waste so if the kids turn their nose up at something it has financial consequences - that leads to people being 'risk averse' in their dietary choices.

Yeah I know, no **** like. Doesn't change that they do live off crap food. And outside of that grouping, people tend to feed their kids okay meals.

Dempsey

Clickbait journalism with misleading headline

Smondie

Dempsey wrote: »

Clickbait journalism with misleading headline

Why is misleading? Children dying from being fed vegan diets are the motivation behind the bill.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619
Parents who restrict their children to a vegan diet could face a jail term if a controversial bill is passed by the Italian parliament.
Such parents, the draft bill claims, are imposing a diet "devoid of essential elements for [children's] healthy and balanced growth".
It has been proposed by Elvira Savino of the centre-right Forza Italia party.
It follows a number of high-profile Italian cases where malnourished children have been taken into care.
In four cases over the last 18 months, malnourished children were hospitalised in Italy after being fed a vegan diet.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/10/parents-children-vegan-diet-prosecuted-italian-law

to six years in prison.

Known as the “Savino law”, it aims to “stigmatise the reckless and dangerous eating behaviour imposed by parents ... to the detriment of minors”, reports Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

It encompassed vegan diets

Dempsey

Smondie wrote: »

Why is misleading? Children dying from being fed vegan diets are the motivation behind the bill.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619
Parents who restrict their children to a vegan diet could face a jail term if a controversial bill is passed by the Italian parliament.
Such parents, the draft bill claims, are imposing a diet "devoid of essential elements for [children's] healthy and balanced growth".
It has been proposed by Elvira Savino of the centre-right Forza Italia party.
It follows a number of high-profile Italian cases where malnourished children have been taken into care.
In four cases over the last 18 months, malnourished children were hospitalised in Italy after being fed a vegan diet.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/aug/10/parents-children-vegan-diet-prosecuted-italian-law

to six years in prison.

Known as the “Savino law”, it aims to “stigmatise the reckless and dangerous eating behaviour imposed by parents ... to the detriment of minors”, reports Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

It encompassed vegan diets

You mean being fed a poor vegan diet. Whats the difference between a poor vegan diet and any other poor diet? NOTHING

Smondie

Dempsey wrote: »

You mean being fed a poor vegan diet. Whats the difference between a poor vegan diet and any other poor diet? NOTHING

With a vegan diet the parent is forcing a restricted diet on thier child. If the parent is going to restrict thier child's diet because of thier vegan beliefs, it is up to the parent to make sure they know thier stuff or else the intentially depriving thier child if nutrients.

You can't just remove meat and dairy from the diet and claim ignorance about the effect it has on the child. It's a concious decsion the parent males to enforce a vegan diet.

Children are dying. Other poor diets may not result in death, but a poor vegan diet will.

Dempsey

Smondie wrote: »

With a vegan diet the parent is forcing a restricted diet on thier child. If the parent is going to restrict thier child's diet because of thier vegan beliefs, it is up to the parent to make sure they know thier stuff or else the intentially depriving thier child if nutrients.

You can't just remove meat and dairy from the diet and claim ignorance about the effect it has on the child.

Children are dying. Other poor diets may not result in death, but a poor vegan diet will.

So again, you are talking about a poor vegan diet :rolleyes:

PopePalpatine

beach_walker wrote: »

Remember the vegan bloodhound in Shirley Valentine?

Ha, that's child's play compared to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkR2XEYEFgk

:pac:

Elliott S

eviltwin wrote: »

Vegans can eat milk, butter and cheese, just vegan versions that are just as good, if not better than their dairy counterparts.

Not better or equal nutritionally.
Not better or equal taste-wise.

Elliott S

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I'd rather give my child a nice hearty stew made with root veg and pulses than a happy meal or some shít filled crispy pancakes masquerading as food.

What is with these false dichotomies?

Jawgap

Turtle_ wrote: »

Yeah I know, no **** like. Doesn't change that they do live off crap food. And outside of that grouping, people tend to feed their kids okay meals.

Well if you want the - to use your phrase - 'welfare classes' to improve their dietary status then access to healthy food needs to be made easier and more affordable.

It may come as surprise to you but parents don't opt to damage their kids :rolleyes:

Jawgap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0O_VYcsIk8

Elliott S

Shint0 wrote: »

While you might not eat processed meat a lot of meat eaters do and often processed or less wholesomely produced or reared meat products can be cheaper on the pocket for some people or more convenient just to throw in an oven from frozen. So it can be due to time constraints as well as affordability or just from habit.

But, sure, some of the veggie convenience foods are processed shíte too! And vegans don't rely on those so why think that ominvores rely on them any more than vegans do?

Wigglepuppy

Don't know much about nutrition but I thought the general rule of thumb (probably a good protein source :pac:) was:

- Protein - animals and animal products like eggs and dairy
- Carbs - stuff that's grown
- Fats - found in both

So from what foodstuffs do vegans get their protein? (Not saying they don't, just don't know much about the area).

failinis

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

So from what foodstuffs do vegans get their protein? (Not saying they don't, just don't know much about the area).

A quick google gave me a list of 25 items.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/natural-health/vegan-sources-of-protein/

Turtle_

Jawgap wrote: »

Well if you want the - to use your phrase - 'welfare classes' to improve their dietary status then access to healthy food needs to be made easier and more affordable.

It may come as surprise to you but parents don't opt to damage their kids :rolleyes:

I don't think you're understanding what I was saying. There's a small element of society, mostly welfare class, who due to lack of education and money and other social problems, feed their kids nutritionally poor diets. Most parents feed their kids relatively balanced and okay diets. The vast majority. But on this thread you have people (vegan) claiming that the majority of non vegans feed their kids rubbish all the time. Which simply is not true. It's a heap of rubbish that vegans use to distract from the fact that without supplements, a vegan diet is incomplete and for children is dangerous.

Jawgap

Turtle_ wrote: »

I don't think you're understanding what I was saying. There's a small element of society, mostly welfare class, who due to lack of education and money and other social problems, feed their kids nutritionally poor diets. Most parents feed their kids relatively balanced and okay diets. The vast majority. But on this thread you have people (vegan) claiming that the majority of non vegans feed their kids rubbish all the time. Which simply is not true. It's a heap of rubbish that vegans use to distract from the fact that without supplements, a vegan diet is incomplete and for children is dangerous.

Yeah, I understand how some people like to stigmatise those on welfare