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Treating people with mental health issues

Andy From Sligo

Ok - you cannot lock Mentally ill people away like the old days .... but also we cannot go on with some mentally ill people being to a danger to the public by knifing them or shooting them or whatever else they might be capable of .

What are people views / ideas on what can be done to safeguard the public - better than what is being done at the moment? - bar cutting down the long waiting list for people to get medical psychiatric help - what more can be done until these people get the help they need , what is not being done at the moment?

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ArtSmart

skywanderer wrote: »

Being mentally ill is the new way for Politically Correct leftists to deflect attention away from Islamic Terrorists. "He was mentally ill, and it had nothing to do with him being a migrant Muslim terrorist and brainwashed with hate".

Quiete frankly I find it appalling and there really is no low that the Politically Correct and their ilk won't stoop to, the few mentally ill people I know are the biggest danger to themselves and no one else.

That's a fair point.

It's not a fair statement.

Nonetheless, killing folk to enhance a cause is, in my book, an act of mental illness.

Still, point taken.

tomwaterford

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Haha - people really go to a doctor and admit they hear voices in their head saying cause harm to yourself or others ? off their own backs ....really?

Emm yes I've heard of it happening.

Quite why you choose to laugh at it. ...is a measure of your character tbh

Geraldo69

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so we have come to 27 posts and no one has suggested (well I dont think) how we can safeguard public from possibly being attacked by a person with mental issues or them self harming themselves whilst they are on a very long waiting list to get proper help.

The above happened to my mother , in one year her mother and sister died and her brother got locked up. Took an awful toll on the family , my mother always suffered with depression and it only got worse after this. She went to the doctor who put her on sleeping tablets which only led to persrciption drug abuse and multiple suicide attempts. My mother would wait 3 years before she saw a phsyciatrist.

ArtSmart

ps,a/ I'm drunk

and B/ I define 'cause' as an aspiration or concept outside of one's immediate experience, ie, not an act of self defense.

carry on.

Junkyard Tom

skywanderer wrote: »

Being mentally ill is the new way for Politically Correct leftists to deflect attention away from Islamic Terrorists. "He was mentally ill, and it had nothing to do with him being a migrant Muslim terrorist and brainwashed with hate".

Wait, are you trying to politicise this issue by citing political correctness as a conspiracy by 'leftists' to surreptitiously support terrorism?

Conspiracy theories forum thataway>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Surreptitious

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so we have come to 27 posts and no one has suggested (well I dont think) how we can safeguard public from possibly being attacked by a person with mental issues or them self harming themselves whilst they are on a very long waiting list to get proper help.

Obviously I would like to wave a magic wand and make help available Immediately for these people but its not happening, so what else is in place or what can be put in place?

What are we at the moment, when people do find the courage to go to the GP they are told there is a huge wating list and you cannot get to see someone for at least 6 months or a year - but here, take these anti depressants, and dont forget to take them - its very important you take them and dont miss a dose and dont drink with them .... and go out for walks in the fresh air . This should keep you going until you get an appointment....

Why would you want protection from someone self harming? It's themselves they are hurting and are aware of it.

Samaris

I'm probably going to regret contributing to this thread.

Few years back, I was diagnosed with a mental health issue. Two, really, or an interconnected one, depending on how you look at it.

Oddly enough, I have never felt the particular need to go stabbing anyone (although I might harbour some fantasies about whapping on the head for people who feel I should perhaps be locked up! :P). On the contrary, the nearest I ever came to doing anyone any harm was myself - which was a good warning that I needed to get back on the anti-crazy pills.

OP, your first post is ignorantly sweeping. What then, constitutes a relevant mental illness? More to the point, what constitutes a mental illness that is in any way likely to cause harm to others in the way of stabbing or shooting? Yep, absolutely some mentally ill people kill people. Some perfectly sane people kill people too - for money, for revenge, for love, for hate, for an ideal, for religion, for country, to protect themselves, to protect others.

Having said that, from -how-, say, Somboly went about his attack, he seemed to be perfectly aware of what he was doing. You can tell from his long planning period. Compared to the London knifing, which appears to be far closer to someone snapping (unpremeditated, no shouting, no acknowledgement of what he was doing, -apparent- disassociation from reality).

So then! What is a mental health issue that you consider relevant to the question of what should be done about us? Any ideas? Schizophrenia maybe? Multiple personality disorder? How about depression, or anxiety or OCD or bipolar disorder or dementia (god knows, all those elderly Alzheimer's patients are a risk to society, aren't they?). Maybe autism? Aspergers? Phobias? Oh, and then there's PTSD, which can indeed cause some sufferers to lash out. It's a bit unfortunate for them that they go through a deeply traumatising experience and are then stigmatised and..ah.."dealt with" by society, but gotta protect the normals, I guess.

You speak of "bar cutting down the long waiting list for people to get medical psychiatric help". Why? Because it's bloody obvious that that might help or because it's too easy, being as wot it's the -obvious thing to do-. You may as well ask "what can we do about all these people with cancer - bar cutting down the long waiting list to see a doctor.

It's a good damn start, isn't it? Oh, and not treating them like they're a bomb about to go off and stab you in the face either, that's also helpful.

Edit: Oh, and as someone with a diagnosed "mental illness" myself, I also don't deny that people with mental illnesses have done some fairly awful things. Several of which we've seen in the past week. Denying that -some- of those people who committed awful crimes were actually suffering from a mental disorder that affected their ability to rationalise like a neurotypical person does them a grave injustice too - much like the OPs comments did in the other direction.

Andy From Sligo

Geraldo69 wrote: »

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so we have come to 27 posts and no one has suggested (well I dont think) how we can safeguard public from possibly being attacked by a person with mental issues or them self harming themselves whilst they are on a very long waiting list to get proper help.

The above happened to my mother , in one year her mother and sister died and her brother got locked up. Took an awful toll on the family , my mother always suffered with depression and it only got worse after this. She went to the doctor who put her on sleeping tablets which only led to persrciption drug abuse and multiple suicide attempts. My mother would wait 3 years before she saw a phsyciatrist.

my God 3 years - totally unacceptable time to wait, the powers that be what are they thinking of cutting these vital services to the general public. And sleeping tablets prescribed absolutely terrible. And I have heard loads of stories similar to something like this especially the long waiting times but i must say not as long as 3 years!!

Annasopra

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I have been getting that knee-jerk reaction lately when that UK MP was killed and the Russell Square thing the other night, and the Underground station thing that they were all terrorist acts on behalf of ISIS ... and then it turns out they all have/had mental issues and attacked random strangers.

Ah right ok. All people with mental health problems are murdering terrorists now.

Your Face

I think some people claim mental illness as an excuse to avoid responsibility for otherwise unacceptable behaviour.
This is unfortunate as it can be deemed to reflect badly on genuine people who struggle daily with real mental health issues.

Pro Hoc Vice

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so we have come to 27 posts and no one has suggested (well I dont think) how we can safeguard public from possibly being attacked by a person with mental issues or them self harming themselves whilst they are on a very long waiting list to get proper help.

Obviously I would like to wave a magic wand and make help available Immediately for these people but its not happening, so what else is in place or what can be put in place?

What are we at the moment, when people do find the courage to go to the GP they are told there is a huge wating list and you cannot get to see someone for at least 6 months or a year - but here, take these anti depressants, and dont forget to take them - its very important you take them and dont miss a dose and dont drink with them .... and go out for walks in the fresh air . This should keep you going until you get an appointment....

I know of persons presenting with serious worries of harming them selves or others they will be detained very quickly, how do I know well I know a solicitor who acts for such persons as his expertise is mental health law, hence why I was aware of the act I earlier linked.

FortySeven

The first thing that could be done is a moratorium of medical care in Ireland. When I go to see my psychiatrist and she doesn't even make eye contact because she is writing up someone else's notes during my appointment. The same psychiatrist that couldn't produce a letter in 6 weeks that I relied upon to gain access to my children.

When my gp doesn't think telling me to 'man up' when I am in the middle of a rapid cycle.

When I'm not prescribed whatever latest ssri that have a history of sending me mental. (I'm bipolar) just because the last industry funded day out told them to prescribe it for everything.

When I go to the lithium clinic and the receptionist bothers her arse to raise her eyes from the magazine she's reading and gets me seen within 30 minutes so I can pretend to my employr that this will only take half an hour. (I've offered to take my own bloods, can't be done)

Being mental in Ireland is medieval. It will take a generation to die to move it into normal. I'm suprised they haven't brought me a priest at this point.

Wigglepuppy

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah right ok. All people with mental health problems are murdering terrorists now.

Where did he say that?

Water John

Thanks to those who have shared their own experiences, with a nod to you Forty Seven.
Also to Sky, who brings his own and only angle to bear on this subject

Andy From Sligo

GP's simply are not the right people to go to if you feel depressed or suicidal or get voices in your head ... and not even friends ! - but when you hear soundbites about 'look after your mental health' and they tell you to go to your GP or talk to your friends about your mental health - thats not fair, all these type of people are not medically trained to deal with these issues.

I remember years ago with myself I was very down , started sleeping a lot in bed , feeling groggy and ill and pretty weepy, not sleeping well , things rolling around in head and it was (what the nearest i thought to it) depression - I eventually mustered up in the end and called the doctor and her advice was "Its a lovely fresh day out there , go out for a lovely walk ' when i said, can I have something to calm me down I am all over the place she said to me, we dont prescribe anti depressants these days, my advice to you is that you get out walking instead and dont lie in bed , get up and walk around back garden' - thats the God honest advice I got at that time . I mean was it just me or is that what was/is hapenning with everyone who goes to the doctors when they muster up enough courage to go to the doctors with depression now? - Just told to go out and walk in the fresh air and told there is over a year to speak to a specialist. If it is, holy mother of god!

Andy From Sligo

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ah right ok. All people with mental health problems are murdering terrorists now.

nope, either you read my post wrong or i didnt word it right ...

Annasopra

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

GP's simply are not the right people to go to if you feel depressed or suicidal or get voices in your head ... and not even friends ! - but when you hear soundbites about 'look after your mental health' and they tell you to go to your GP or talk to your friends about your mental health - thats not fair, all these type of people are not medically trained to deal with these issues.

I remember years ago with myself I was very down , started sleeping a lot in bed , feeling groggy and ill and pretty weepy, not sleeping well , things rolling around in head and it was (what the nearest i thought to it) depression - I eventually mustered up in the end and called the doctor and her advice was "Its a lovely fresh day out there , go out for a lovely walk ' when i said, can I have something to calm me down I am all over the place she said to me, we dont prescribe anti depressants these days, my advice to you is that you get out walking instead and dont lie in bed , get up and walk around back garden' - thats the God honest advice I got at that time . I mean was it just me or is that what was/is hapenning with everyone who goes to the doctors when they muster up enough courage to go to the doctors with depression now? - Just told to go out and walk in the fresh air and told there is over a year to speak to a specialist. If it is, holy mother of god!

Do you think you are/were a risk to the general public because you had depression?

Wigglepuppy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so we have come to 27 posts and no one has suggested (well I dont think) how we can safeguard public from possibly being attacked by a person with mental issues or them self harming themselves whilst they are on a very long waiting list to get proper help.

Obviously I would like to wave a magic wand and make help available Immediately for these people but its not happening, so what else is in place or what can be put in place?

What are we at the moment, when people do find the courage to go to the GP they are told there is a huge wating list and you cannot get to see someone for at least 6 months or a year - but here, take these anti depressants, and dont forget to take them - its very important you take them and dont miss a dose and dont drink with them .... and go out for walks in the fresh air . This should keep you going until you get an appointment....

Why are you expecting others to provide an answer? Maybe nobody (yourself included) has an answer?

I think maybe there should be more freedom for the state to intervene, because right now there is a mass of red tape preventing people from sending their loved one for care that they (and their families) badly need. I know one person whose sibling is exceptionally unstable and has been violent, and is viciously aggressive verbally. Their family is on edge wondering what they could do next, and whether it'll take attempted murder for it to be agreed to hospitalise them long term.

But state involvement more readily, comes with its own problems - many would not accept state intervention given the history this country has in terms of institutions.

El Hombre

Surreptitious wrote: »

I'm shocked at this. No wonder people are afraid to speak up about their problems.

What do you bloody expect given any terrorist attack now the perpetrators are labelled as having "mental issues" as God forbid Islam is mentioned in any form at all, Christ no we can't have that let's scapegoat people with mental issues instead.

Any eejit could see using the mental issues to cover up for our cultural enrichers was gonna back fire and set back the small amount of progress that had been made in regards to understanding people with genieune mental health issues.

Water John

Andy, I think the stats are 1:5 visiting a GP is doing so on mental issues, mainly depression and anxiety.
Sorry if you did not have a good GP response but most are now very clued in.
Not sure they get any great training still on mental health, don't know.
I'm lucky as my GP had his own family experience on the subject.

Andy From Sligo

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I know of persons presenting with serious worries of harming them selves or others they will be detained very quickly, how do I know well I know a solicitor who acts for such persons as his expertise is mental health law, hence why I was aware of the act I earlier linked.

so it is possible if people are depressed but been told there is a waiting list of a year or more can fast track the system by self harming themselves.

I think anyone who presents themselves to GP , or Guards, or phones samaritans or tells whoever should be fast tracked to be seen and assesed ... not to be told there is a long waiting list

Wigglepuppy

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

GP's simply are not the right people to go to if you feel depressed or suicidal or get voices in your head ... and not even friends ! - but when you hear soundbites about 'look after your mental health' and they tell you to go to your GP or talk to your friends about your mental health - thats not fair, all these type of people are not medically trained to deal with these issues.

I remember years ago with myself I was very down , started sleeping a lot in bed , feeling groggy and ill and pretty weepy, not sleeping well , things rolling around in head and it was (what the nearest i thought to it) depression - I eventually mustered up in the end and called the doctor and her advice was "Its a lovely fresh day out there , go out for a lovely walk ' when i said, can I have something to calm me down I am all over the place she said to me, we dont prescribe anti depressants these days, my advice to you is that you get out walking instead and dont lie in bed , get up and walk around back garden' - thats the God honest advice I got at that time . I mean was it just me or is that what was/is hapenning with everyone who goes to the doctors when they muster up enough courage to go to the doctors with depression now? - Just told to go out and walk in the fresh air and told there is over a year to speak to a specialist. If it is, holy mother of god!

GPs are the right people to start off with. They can refer the patient to someone more specialised then. I think that's actually what has to be done.

I don't fully disagree with that doctor you went to either. Medication should be a last resort, and fresh air an exercise are good for mental health woes (to start with anyway - obviously more is needed if they continue).

How did you fare in the end?

La.de.da

Well for a start what services we do have in this country for mental health are stretched to the limit and totally inadequate for the most part.

If a mentally ill patient presents themselves as being a danger to themselves or community the immediate case is to detain in an A&E department or guarda station. Then only to be released into the 'system' to await a psychiatric appointment every 6/8 weeks if lucky. And seeing a different person each time.

Speaking from experience of a family member with personality disorder and paranoid schizophrenia who'd become irrationality violent, the above is a repetitive cycle.

There are very few 'institutions' these days, unless of course you have a hefty wallet to fund privately.

Water John

My own suggestion nowadays is to engage with a service such as Pieta House along with a GP.
this would be for depression and anxiety.
Any personality disorder requires full medical intervention.

Andy From Sligo

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Do you think you are/were a risk to the general public because you had depression?

well, i could have seriously harmed the Doctor at the time who kept telling me that everything would be fine and dandy if I went out for a lovely walk! .....

Pro Hoc Vice

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so it is possible if people are depressed but been told there is a waiting list of a year or more can fast track the system by self harming themselves.

I think anyone who presents themselves to GP , or Guards, or phones samaritans or tells whoever should be fast tracked to be seen and assesed ... not to be told there is a long waiting list

If a person has heart problems in Ireland could be on waiting list for months or more, if that same person has a heart attack or doctor says he needs bypass now it matters not if he public or private he would be on a table within hours with his chest been cut open. I have also bee aware of people coming to attention for mental health matters and being admitted within hours. Medical service are limited the system puts what is in its mind less serious on the list.

FortySeven

I don't think it is possible to categorise mental health into simple day to day terminology.

How do we determine the level of need? There can be a man, say an it professional who presents with feelings of depression. He has it all, wife, kids, house, good job. Feeling down.

Then there is the nobody, suicidal, lonely, history of self harm, no income, homeless.

Who will kill themselves first?

In my experience, the first guy. And he will not be helped due to societal norms. He'll be ok. He has support. Etc. Etc.

One thing I have learned within the mental health industry. (A lifetime) It is society that needs to change. Medical care is second best to supportive family, friends and employers.

That said. Provision in ireland is slow, archaic and badly resourced. Targetting is charity dictated and woefully inadequate.

Andy From Sligo

Wigglepuppy wrote: »

GPs are the right people to start off with. They can refer the patient to someone more specialised then. I think that's actually what has to be done.

I don't fully disagree with that doctor you went to either. Medication should be a last resort, and fresh air an exercise are good for mental health woes (to start with anyway - obviously more is needed if they continue).

How did you fare in the end?

Did try going out getting fresh air, my problems were still there as much as ever

Thankfully life turned round for me, and ironically I was having back problems as well as stomach problems and an appointment at the hospital came though not long after the doctor refused me anti-depressants and the specialist in the hospital said "now, I am giving you these tablets to relax your muscles and help you sleep at night... they are prescribed mainly as anti-depressants with people but I am prescribing them to you because they also help as muscle relaxants ... " well he wasnt aware of my chat with the GP and her not prescribing me any anti-depressants thankfully - and I have been on them ever since. - for years now.

I dunno what I would be like if I suddenly stopped taking them , I dont even want to try. - Another irony is that the leaflet inside says ' these tablets are to treat depression, but some users experience thoughts of self harming and killing themselves (or words to that effect) ! :eek:

Water John

Anti depressants can take about 6 six weeks to be effective. One may actually disimprove in that early phase, hence the risk mentioned.

Andy From Sligo

oh by the way people I couldnt think how to word the title of this thread. So if you think of a more suitable/nicer title, let me know and I will change it. - Its only a title of a thread at the end of the day but it seems like some people get offended by the titles i give my posts on boards. - theres no malice on my behalf , its just that I am not expertly literate enough when thinking up a title