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Would you be in favour of a border poll?

[Deleted User]

With Sinn Féin pushing for a border poll, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael opening the door to a future referendum on Irish unity, would you be in favour of having a border poll?

A national debate and discussion, with people from all sides giving their input. I can't see why a border poll could be anything but beneficial and informative. Thoughts?

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failinis

I would say yes have a poll but I would not know how to vote. Romantically I would like to see reunification. Economically the South likely would not want us and also if it was a sucess - the loyalists would likely cause trouble and maybe have enclaves and cause even more divison. Mixed feelings

The Backwards Man

If the Brits go ahead with the Brexit yes, if not, no

TheQuietFella

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

lose seats?, they are constitutionally protected and we actually now have to few believe it or not. It would increase numbers as UK representation numbers are lower than Ireland

A United Ireland would warrant a change in the constitution to accommodate this.

We would need a new constitution or wholesale changes to what we have there anyway.

Cookie_Monster

TheQuietFella wrote: »

A United Ireland would warrant a change in the constitution to accommodate this.

We would need a new constitution or wholesale changes to what we have there anyway.

which would need to be approved before a vote on the North so people know what they are getting and I don't see much of that getting through either.

ninebeanrows

How does this work? Surely there is absolutely no chance the NI electorate would be in favour? It would be at least 60% NO...

In the south probably 70% for unification.

BoatMad

on an intellectual level , I agree with those that say the this state were it presented with the opportunity for reunification would easily financially accommodate northern Ireland economy , there would be massive change in NI of course to a functioning high tech open economy , but Ireland has a lot of experience in that

as for Unionist violence , it would be pointless, Unionist violence only works while they remain part of the UK , if they were actively cast off from the UK, they would be no point in violence, so widespread unionist violence would not occur. ( yes they would be certain militant groups )

This is the sad part of Irish history had the British enacted all Ireland Home rule and faced down treats of Unionist violence , It would not have amounted to anything . Unionist violence was always predicated on forcing that as a treat to maintain the union , its of no use the union is gone

of course , its all fairy tales anyway

BoatMad

Weathercheck wrote: »

How does this work? Surely there is absolutely no chance the NI electorate would be in favour? It would be at least 60% NO...

In the south probably 70% for unification.

we could hire a stack of " leave " strategists , they seems to be able to conjure nonsense out of reality

[Deleted User]

Weathercheck wrote: »

How does this work? Surely there is absolutely no chance the NI electorate would be in favour? It would be at least 60% NO...

In the south probably 70% for unification.

Just like Scottish Independence was written off before the debates - I wouldn't be so sure of the outcome.

J Mysterio

I find the 'no argument' which is entirely based on money, to be fairly sad.

I fail to see how we could not absorb the hit anyhow. Irelands GDP was $238 billion last year. The subsidy to NI from the UK is £20 billion.

seamus

J Mysterio wrote: »

I find the 'no argument' which is entirely based on money, to be fairly sad.

Tbh it's the stronger, rational argument.

Favouring unification out of some teary-eyed sentimentality for a united nation that never existed in the first place, is what I find fairly sad.

That people would volunatarily risk the economic and social prosperity of their country because of some rose-tinted sentimental nationalist idea, is fairly scary. The UK just did it, and look at them.

I have far less confidence in the power of referenda/polls than I did when I was younger. One could argue that it's the purest form of democracy, but then you see how easy it is to manipulate people, and how much trust people put in 3rd party information sources.
Very few people go and find out for themselves, instead they trust in someone else to make their mind up for them.

That's not really democracy, that's media-ocracy. Government by the most convincing liars. When people vote in a referendum, they should understand what their vote means and be happy to stand behind it. Far too many people who vote in referendums and then are filled with regret afterwards; win or lose; because, "I didn't know" or "I was voting in protest at X".

So in short, I wouldn't be directly opposed to a border poll, but I don't think it's the best way to approach a question that has the power to be violently divisive.
It will be the right time for unification when the majority governments on both sides of the border are unanimously in favour of it.
That's a far stronger indication of the level of support for unification within the populace.

Wibbs

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I'd vote no.

The reason being if ultimately a referendum on a United Ireland was the result, and it passed, militant Unionism would awaken and there would be bombs and killings all over Ireland.

Exactly. Sod that lark. Leave that sectarian nonsense "up there" and in the past. I lived through it when that retarded evil shíte on all sides was "live" and today's island of Ireland is by far the better for it being in the past.

Zxclnic

To answer the question in the thread title, NO.

''tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people''.
Guess which adjective the above defines?

That's right.....Divisive.

Cina

Discarding all the potential discourse and violence throughout a unified Ireland, the simple fact is we can't afford to absorb the North. The gap in GDP alongside their reliance on Government jobs makes it a non-starter, in my eyes.

flazio

I'd love to know how the Shinnerbots would vote if these were the options.
1. Reunite Ireland but fund the changeover through the Water charges.
2. Leave the North with the UK but abolish Water Charges in the Republic.

Cina

flazio wrote: »

I'd love to know how the Shinnerbots would vote if these were the options.
1. Reunite Ireland but fund the changeover through the Water charges.
2. Leave the North with the UK but abolish Water Charges in the Republic.

If you think the water charges would provide enough €€€ to fund it then you are sadly misguided.

murpho999

As usual the majority of posters relate the sense of nationhood to economies and not actual countries.

I would like to see a border poll and reunification someday but not quite yet. I would wait and see what happens to Scotland. If they get a second poll and vote leave then their is no more "United Kingdom" for the unionist community to be united with and the opportunity might be right for a peaceful transition to the Republic.

Has to be done peacefully though.

Cina

murpho999 wrote: »

As usual the majority of posters relate the sense of nationhood to economies and not actual countries.

I would like to see a border poll and reunification someday but not quite yet. I would wait and see what happens to Scotland. If they get a second poll and vote leave then their is no more "United Kingdom" for the unionist community to be united with and the opportunity might be right for a peaceful transition to the Republic.

Has to be done peacefully though.

Sounds a bit like "Feck the economy, take back control"

Wonder where we've heard that before?

Mint Sauce

Even putting aside the Unionism issue, a debate on it would certainly be interesting, with a referendum sometime after brexit is completed, thats if it happens. Should it go through, you are gonna see alot more debate, not just here, but a redebate on Scotish Inpendence, NI would be exploring options as well, even though the DUP were supporting an exit, although tht may have been more to do with, not wanting to be seen agreeing with SF.

But from an economic point of view, we could currenty never afford another 6 counties, the residents of the 6 counties are hardly gonna be in of favour of losing the NHS, losing a poll tax whilst may not all be in favour of, that gives them most of their government and local services for our property tax, that gives them nothing. There would also be a massive change in infrastructure, from roads, transport, and communication.

Then where would you put this central government, Dublin, Belfast, or even Cork.

Heart would say yes, head would currently say no. There would be currently more loses, than gains.

murpho999

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Even putting aside the Unionism issue, a debate on it would certainly be interesting, with a referendum sometime after brexit is completed, thats if it happens.

Bit from an economic point of view, we could currenty never afford another 6 counties, the residents of the 6 counties are hardly gonna be in of favour of losing the NHS, having a poll tax that gives them most of there government and local services for our property tax, that gives them nothing. There would also be a massive in infrastructure, from roads, transport, and communication.

Then where would you put this central government, Dublin, Belfast, or even Cork.

Heart would say yes, head would currently say no. There would be currently more loses, than gains.

Would that be the poll tax that was abolished in 1993?

Speedwell

Kind of a stupid question, but I'm curious how those voting against a border poll would likely vote if a border poll were actually to be held anyway.

mimimcmc

This is an extremely interesting boards poll, very 50/50. Every time I click to a new page the votes go up but the results are the same.

I for one voted no and would probably vote no as I don't think it's the right time but I'd look into it more if a referendum were to happen

seamus

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Then where would you put this central government, Dublin, Belfast, or even Cork.

It would be Dublin obviously. Would still be the largest single population and the powerhouse of the economy, as well as N-S centred.

We could ease the transition though by devolving more power to regional boroughs with Mayors, much like the Mayor of London has a lot of power in that region.

So three regional governments - Cork, Galway, Dublin with a decent amount of power in their respective provinces (Ulster provinces can be distributed temporarily). Which means a smaller, theoretically more efficient Dail with a more national outlook.

Unification then is a relatively easy transition - Stormont becomes the seat of the Ulster regional government.

murpho999

Cina wrote: »

Sounds a bit like "Feck the economy, take back control"

Wonder where we've heard that before?

Not sure what you mean but do you live in a country or an economy?

Mint Sauce

murpho999 wrote: »

Would that be the poll tax that was abolished in 1993?

Council Tax then, but was not aware that it wasn't collected in NI. Athough a similar argument would still stand, as there surely would be a change in how their local services are funded.

suicide_circus

Is it still the case that a large portion of the north's population are on some kind of benefits?

FTA69

The whole talk about a border poll is largely irrelevant because the GFA specifies that unity has to be ratified on both sides of the border. The northern state was specifically created to give Unionists a majority, which was why Republicanism traditionally decried it as sectarian and undemocratic. Regardless of what anyone in the south votes for or advocates the fact is that the northern state will not vote for unity as it contains an inbuilt majority to prevent that.

Speedwell

suicide_circus wrote: »

Is it still the case that a large portion of the north's population are on some kind of benefits?

Isn't a large portion of Ireland and the UK on some sort of benefits anyway? Oh, you mean disproportionately so? How big exactly is the disproportion and why do you think it exists?

Some people I know in Northern Ireland think that Northern Ireland is currently the, if you'll pardon the pun, "red-headed stepchild" of the UK anyway. Most of the same people appear to think they'll fare no better as part of Ireland, if only because they'll still be identified as a separate region within the country. I have no particular dog in that hunt, at least not until I'm a citizen.

murpho999

Mint Sauce wrote: »

Council Tax then, but was not aware that it wasn't collected in NI. Athough a similar argument would still stand, as there surely would be a change in how their local services are funded.

There could be a transition period. As there would have to be with lots of things apart from money which everyone worries about.

Things I can think of in no particular order:

1) Police force: Does PSNI become Gardai (Irish name will be divisive)
2) Education: Schools to adopt Irish curriculum instead of UK
3) Currency: Change to the Euro
4) Roads: Change of classifications, names and signage from Miles to KM
5) Integration of politics to Irish system and scrapping of Stormont parliament
6) Bank Holidays: What happens to July 12 and holidays they had from UK
7) Hospitals: integration into Irish system
8) Does Royal Mail become An Post: Do letterboxes on Shankill Road become green?
9) The National Anthem
10) Will Loyalists insist on Ireland being members of the Commonwealth
11) Taxation and social welfare: Do they join Irish system
12) VAT: UK=17.5% Ireland= 23%. How do the bridge that?
13) Phone numbers: How do +44 xxx numbers become Irish?
14) Websites: Do they change from .co.uk to .ie

SEPT 23 1989

murpho999 wrote: »

There could be a transition period. As there would have to be with lots of things apart from money which everyone worries about.

Things I can think of in no particular order:

1) Police force: Does PSNI become Gardai (Irish name will be divisive)
2) Education: Schools to adopt Irish curriculum instead of UK
3) Currency: Change to the Euro
4) Roads: Change of classifications, names and signage from Miles to KM
5) Integration of politics to Irish system and scrapping of Stormont parliament
6) Bank Holidays: What happens to July 12 and holidays they had from UK
7) Hospitals: integration into Irish system
8) Does Royal Mail become An Post: Do letterboxes on Shankill Road become green?
9) The National Anthem
10) Will Loyalists insist on Ireland being members of the Commonwealth
11) Taxation and social welfare: Do they join Irish system
12) VAT: UK=17.5% Ireland= 23%. How do the bridge that?
13) Phone numbers: How do +44 xxx numbers become Irish?
14) Websites: Do they change from .co.uk to .ie

and the most important of all the football team

FTA69

Personally I think the only reason the Brits stayed in Ireland was to protect the wider integrity of the UK and prevent a precedent for Scottish independence. I think that if we see an independent Scotland then long-term the British establishment will seek to disengage from Ireland. I don't envision them packing up and shooting off in a week but I imagine they would approach the Dublin government and say they're willing to facilitate unity and over 40 years or so we'd see a gradual merging of the states' institutions.

At the end of the day the British government doesn't claim sovereignty over a part of Ireland for the craic, they do so because they perceive to have an interest there and if that becomes negated and the UK as a concept starts to dissolve I doubt they'll be too keen in subsidising a load of mad Paddies forever more.