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Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

Timmaay

24/6/16

Recently we saw three posters close their accounts over disagreements in the dairy threads. While there is a lot of frustration and discontent with current milk prices and the processing industry, the recent tendency for dairy threads to become tit-for-tat arguments isn’t tolerable for those not involved.

All farming sectors go through difficult periods and during such times there may need to be changes in how threads are moderated.

Dairy threads are going to be more closely monitored and subject to stricter moderation for a while.

To that end we won’t tolerate baiting of posters, constantly reviving old arguments, posters with agendas or crusading for a cause.

Whether it’s discussion of the business or politics of the dairy or other sectors, we expect civility and tolerance toward each other and other opinions as diversity of opinion is needed as a source of different ways of looking at a situation.

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert

Also please be aware that what you may post as light-hearted banter can be read totally differently by someone adversely affected by the subject matter and evoke a reaction you hadn’t intended.

The ‘Off-Season’ forum, and its anonymous posting, is available for anyone to chat about their situation.

The Mod Team.

10 away from the 10000 posts! Frazz I think it's fair to say this thread has been a success!

Indeed it was! First thread can be found here- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056872221

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Comments

kowtow

JeffKenna wrote: »

I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion.

If the Co-Op is subsidising by, we'll say a cent, for every litre then surely this is transferring money directly from smaller farmers to bigger ones. Why not leave it all in the Co-op and redistribute it as dividends at the end of the year. Surely that would be fairer as opposed to subsidising big expanding farms?

If sufficient shares are held by the expanding supplier to match volume then whether he gets it as dividend or alongside supply makes no odds surely? - aside from price dilution which is a problem per my post above.

kowtow

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

I dont know anything about coop shares and supply rights so might be missing something, but if milk for powder is worth less than 20c/l atm and an existing supplier/new entrant can supply extra milk to the coop for a base price above this are they not watering down a longterm suppliers (who didn't expand) share of the higher value products?

I think the answer is yes and no.

To the extent that there is a fixed amount of premium high priced sales available to a co-op, then every additional litre supplied moves the price for everyone down inexorably towards the lowest price - the "powder price" - perhaps. The most effective way to escape this would be some form of internal pool a+b+spot milk or whatever which reflected the co-ops external sales of product - I think the ship has probably sailed for that as it would be very difficult to establish a reference year, but that's about the measure of it.

FWIW as I have said here before I'd be absolutely in favour of a transparent traded market for all milk contracts, with the co-ops back in their proper role as farmer's agent but that is a different discussion.

The question as I originally read it was about the share out of price support of the type that has been added to the milk price by various co-ops in the recent past - since this comes from shareholders funds, it follows that additional shares issued and sold to match the volume of supply increase the capital base and therefore there is already an equitable division of sorts if the regime is properly followed.

You are absolutely right on the price dilution aspect though, unless and until powder is more valuable than everything else that is a new fact of life for suppliers who aren't expanding.

JeffKenna

kowtow wrote: »

If shares / volume is well enforced, and considering that subsidy comes out of retained earnings or shareholder capital, then it should never be the case that farms staying static are subsidising those expanding... even if there was a big issue, it should be possible to isolate the price support element and pay it only based on shares already held at a certain date (like an ex-div date for a traded stock).

I'm not sure how you're coming to this conclusion.

If the Co-Op is subsidising by, we'll say a cent, for every litre then surely this is transferring money directly from smaller farmers to bigger ones. Why not leave it all in the Co-op and redistribute it as dividends at the end of the year. Surely that would be fairer as opposed to subsidising big expanding farms?

yosemitesam1

kowtow wrote: »

If shares / volume is well enforced, and considering that subsidy comes out of retained earnings or shareholder capital, then it should never be the case that farms staying static are subsidising those expanding... even if there was a big issue, it should be possible to isolate the price support element and pay it only based on shares already held at a certain date (like an ex-div date for a traded stock).

I dont know anything about coop shares and supply rights so might be missing something, but if milk for powder is worth less than 20c/l atm and an existing supplier/new entrant can supply extra milk to the coop for a base price above this are they not watering down a longterm suppliers (who didn't expand) share of the higher value products?

kowtow

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Id say some form of an a+b quota will have to be introduced at some stage, its not really fair for someone who isnt expanding to be subsidising other peoples milk price.

If shares / volume is well enforced, and considering that subsidy comes out of retained earnings or shareholder capital, then it should never be the case that farms staying static are subsidising those expanding... even if there was a big issue, it should be possible to isolate the price support element and pay it only based on shares already held at a certain date (like an ex-div date for a traded stock).

kowtow

mahoney_j wrote: »

Fook em ,it's not like you'll be supplying a coop for free ,you will have to buy shares of some form to supply a coop ,u have lots of experience and plenty of ability ,don't let negative crap like that pull u down .

+1000

besides, the co-ops enjoy the luxury of "gentlemen's agreements" carving up territory to decide who gets to pick up milk.

With that in the background, there may not be a legal obligation for a co-op to collect a new entrants milk, but they'd want to think carefully before saying no whatever the circumstances.

We haven't decided yet whether to send our surplus 1000 litres a week or so to the co-op, but when I spoke to them they were quite open to it - despite the inconveniently small collection - basically wouldn't want to leave us stranded. Whether that materialises into a practical arrangement we'll have to see later in the year...

Water John

Goodness, some guys come out with sh**e. This amounts to some thinking they have a 'right' or 'entitlement'. Mahony is right, ignore them.
Any one starting any business meets similar negativity any way.
They just might be afraid you'll do a very good job.

Buford T. Justice XIX

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi lads .
Don't know if ye saw my thread of taking the big step .
I was back home weekend in kerry and was telling a few lads that I was going to return to milking .
The mood was that milk suppliers feel why should a new entrant be given a contract to supply milk when there is over supply and the guys who have support the manufacturer all their life is entitled to a price per litre before kerry take on any new milk .what's ye feeling ??

My feeling, as Mahoney said, is they can bugger off.

Your land produced milk 10 years ago so the lads complaining now weren't complaining when buying up your quota to expand themselves. They have no grounds to complain now as your father helped build the processor to what it is now.

If you feel you can make it work then go right ahead and take no notice of those trying to bring you down to their level.

And I'd try to pick up a few new friends, the old ones don't seem worth hanging onto:)

yewtree

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi lads .
Don't know if ye saw my thread of taking the big step .
I was back home weekend in kerry and was telling a few lads that I was going to return to milking .
The mood was that milk suppliers feel why should a new entrant be given a contract to supply milk when there is over supply and the guys who have support the manufacturer all their life is entitled to a price per litre before kerry take on any new milk .what's ye feeling ??

Wouldn't take any notice of that rubbish. As said in pervious post you are not supplying for free as you will have to share up.
The industry needs new entrants considering the age profile of suppliers in the country.
The amount of milk supplied by new entrants is relatively small. the vast majority of the additional milk produced since quotas finished has been from existing milk suppliers. It's total nonsense to suggest new entrants are causing the over supply.

mahoney_j

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi lads .
Don't know if ye saw my thread of taking the big step .
I was back home weekend in kerry and was telling a few lads that I was going to return to milking .
The mood was that milk suppliers feel why should a new entrant be given a contract to supply milk when there is over supply and the guys who have support the manufacturer all their life is entitled to a price per litre before kerry take on any new milk .what's ye feeling ??

Fook em ,it's not like you'll be supplying a coop for free ,you will have to buy shares of some form to supply a coop ,u have lots of experience and plenty of ability ,don't let negative crap like that pull u down .

yosemitesam1

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi lads .
Don't know if ye saw my thread of taking the big step .
I was back home weekend in kerry and was telling a few lads that I was going to return to milking .
The mood was that milk suppliers feel why should a new entrant be given a contract to supply milk when there is over supply and the guys who have support the manufacturer all their life is entitled to a price per litre before kerry take on any new milk .what's ye feeling ??

Id say some form of an a+b quota will have to be introduced at some stage, its not really fair for someone who isnt expanding to be subsidising other peoples milk price.

kerry cow

Hi lads .
Don't know if ye saw my thread of taking the big step .
I was back home weekend in kerry and was telling a few lads that I was going to return to milking .
The mood was that milk suppliers feel why should a new entrant be given a contract to supply milk when there is over supply and the guys who have support the manufacturer all their life is entitled to a price per litre before kerry take on any new milk .what's ye feeling ??

whelan2

Sown 8th of june

whelan2

OverRide wrote: »

What's up with Glanbia connect,I can't open any milk or trading statement

They probably paid 100's of 1000's for this new site and half the time it's broken
They don't give a sh1t

People in Glanbia mostly dont work over the weekend, I assume they might have it fixed before we get the paper copies in the post

OverRide

What's up with Glanbia connect,I can't open any milk or trading statement

They probably paid 100's of 1000's for this new site and half the time it's broken
They don't give a sh1t

jaymla627

Timmaay wrote: »

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/minister-creed-to-lead-trade-mission-to-asia-this-year-to-promote-irish-food-and-drink/

Food wise 2025! The new buzzword in town. Certainly cannot say I have the same naive enthusiasm for it that I had when the harvest 2020 was 1st touted!

Would be some work to increase exports to 5 billion to china from a base of 500 million this year, quick Google search might show these highly paid suits China is driving towards self-suffincey buying land left right and centre and forging very strong links with south America for dairy especially which are countries Ireland simply won't compete with

Timmaay

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/minister-creed-to-lead-trade-mission-to-asia-this-year-to-promote-irish-food-and-drink/

Food wise 2025! The new buzzword in town. Certainly cannot say I have the same naive enthusiasm for it that I had when the harvest 2020 was 1st touted!

jaymla627

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

That's disappointing, had intended giving them a big go next breeding season. When you say disappointing what was the issue. What bulls did you go for

Lack of milk relative to their mothers, size issues aswell no real uniformity could be small and butty our very tall, very hard trained in to parlour compared to hols heifers
Used r haslev, a linne and gunnerstop, r haslev is the only bull I am going to use again and that will be on fairly extreme Shottle heifers,

RightTurnClyde

jaymla627 wrote: »

Have viking red crosses here, the good ones are good the middling ones are a disaster, still using a nice bit of them on my extreme hols cows but your run of the mill 5000 litre bf/hols cross throws a fairly disappointing first cross in my expirence

That's disappointing, had intended giving them a big go next breeding season. When you say disappointing what was the issue. What bulls did you go for

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Health accounts for 3% of a bulls ebi, in the pli system it accounts for nearly 20%, have a Eurogene catalogue in front of us of their top ten bulls at the start of the catalogue 6 are minus for health, must only be a new thing with icbf so, any word on why the new ebi system hasn't been rolled out yet thought it was to be implemented last year

New roll out for next ebi run in September

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Far from after thought ,I've had a 400 ebi bull with excellent fertility and production figures rejected because of his health figure of -6 this year .negative health now regardless of ebi is rejection

Health accounts for 3% of a bulls ebi, in the pli system it accounts for nearly 20%, have a Eurogene catalogue in front of us of their top ten bulls at the start of the catalogue 6 are minus for health, must only be a new thing with icbf so, any word on why the new ebi system hasn't been rolled out yet thought it was to be implemented last year

mahoney_j

jaymla627 wrote: »

Semex and genus abs have immunity plus bulls that would be what your looking for, no irish ai companies have any such testing programs in place, health traits are a after thought in relation to ebi

Far from after thought ,I've had a 400 ebi bull with excellent fertility and production figures rejected because of his health figure of -6 this year .negative health now regardless of ebi is rejection

jaymla627

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Viking genetics have been selecting for disease resistance for a long no. of years, avalaible through Eurogene. The Viking genetics website here.

http://www.vikinggenetics.com/breeds/vikingholstein/proven-bulls

Have viking red crosses here, the good ones are good the middling ones are a disaster, still using a nice bit of them on my extreme hols cows but your run of the mill 5000 litre bf/hols cross throws a fairly disappointing first cross in my expirence

Brown Podzol

jaymla627 wrote: »

25% heritability is transfered between bulls bulls/dams to daughters for health traits more then just a marketing tool, lots of case studies to back up their claims

Viking genetics have been selecting for disease resistance for a long no. of years, avalaible through Eurogene. The Viking genetics website here.

http://www.vikinggenetics.com/breeds/vikingholstein/proven-bulls

Water John

Jam has more details than I. Some profiling done, showed one bull with zero in progeny and another with 96%.
Its a trait that would have real value, for farms with a history, esp those Wicklow farms with deer nearby.
Pity it has not been followed up.

jaymla627

blackdog1 wrote: »

Immunity plus is just another marketing tool. Maize and beet are the real problem with Tb badgers go mad for both especially beet maize to a lesser extent.

25% heritability is transfered between bulls bulls/dams to daughters for health traits more then just a marketing tool, lots of case studies to back up their claims

blackdog1

jaymla627 wrote:

Semex and genus abs have immunity plus bulls that would be what your looking for, no irish ai companies have any such testing programs in place, health traits are a after thought in relation to ebi

Immunity plus is just another marketing tool. Maize and beet are the real problem with Tb badgers go mad for both especially beet maize to a lesser extent.

jaymla627

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Good news alright.

I can still move on some of the excess built up from last year before winter.

I'll celebrate by carrying a few to the mart:)

On the immunity, is there much info out yet on which bulls carry higher resistance to TB. I'm thinking it might be an option for next year or it could be for my neighbour definitely.

Semex and genus abs have immunity plus bulls that would be what your looking for, no irish ai companies have any such testing programs in place, health traits are a after thought in relation to ebi

Buford T. Justice XIX

Water John wrote: »

Had a neighbour who lost most of his first calvers. Seems to be where he grazed them for the summer.
Seems some bulls bring immunity and others don't. And its a fairly high hereditry trait.
Good news for yourself.

Good news alright.

I can still move on some of the excess built up from last year before winter.

I'll celebrate by carrying a few to the mart:)

On the immunity, is there much info out yet on which bulls carry higher resistance to TB. I'm thinking it might be an option for next year or it could be for my neighbour definitely.

Water John

Had a neighbour who lost most of his first calvers. Seems to be where he grazed them for the summer.
Seems some bulls bring immunity and others don't. And its a fairly high hereditry trait.
Good news for yourself.