Mr Barry McSweeney

Druid · 09-10-2005 1:44pm #1

I, personally, would label Mr. Barry McSweeney a charlaton. This follows from the discovery that his Ph.D. was awarded by a discredited 'degree factory' in the USA.

While Im sure he has done a great job in his current role as "Chief Science Advisor" for the government, I feel that he has essentially decieved his employers. While we all might exaggerate a little on our own CV (how many of use actaully enjoy walking?) the issue of adding a fake degrees is disgraceful.

Im currently in an Academic career and the achevement of a Ph.D. is no mean feat. The discovery that the governments chief science advisor has a fake Ph.D. is not going to help Irelands reputation.

The most annoying point is that the government refer to Mr. McSweeney as a "Doctor". I find this disgraceful and insulting to those who spend many hard years in obtaining their full credited doctorate award.

Is this a big political issue or just more ammunition for the other political parties?

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-10-2005 2:05pm

Did he actually state that his PhD was from another institution other than the Pacific Western University. If he correctly stated that he got a PhD from that institution, how can he be accused of deceiving his employers?

Have a look at a lot of MBA and Masters degrees that can be obtained in a similar manner

ISAW · 09-10-2005 3:02pm

Druid wrote:

I, personally, would label Mr. Barry McSweeney a charlaton. This follows from the discovery that his Ph.D. was awarded by a discredited 'degree factory' in the USA.

...
The most annoying point is that the government refer to Mr. McSweeney as a "Doctor". I find this disgraceful and insulting to those who spend many hard years in obtaining their full credited doctorate award.

Do you apply the same annoyance to them referring to Dr Paisley?

edanto · 09-10-2005 3:38pm

Druid wrote:

I, personally, would label Mr. Barry McSweeney a charlaton.

No way! Just look at the guy's record and attitude. He played a stormer at the JRC in Europe and hasn't pulled many punches when shaking things up in Ireland.

What does it matter where he got his PhD, or whatever awards he has? Surely he was recruited based on the skills and experience he picked up in the 20 years or so since he got that PhD.

Druid · 09-10-2005 4:51pm

He has yet to comment on this matter. I would guess that he did state that the Ph.D. (if you could call it that) was given by Pacific Western University.

The other MBA and degrees where you pay a couple of thousand dollars to obtain are also complete and utter toilet paper. If I ever discovered that anyone whom I was conducting business with had such a qualification I would seriously consider Stop doing business with them. Im my opinion its fraud.

I personally do not find honorary doctorates appealing. However if they are given by a reputable institution then yes it is accecptable to use the title "Doctor". In the case of Mr. Paisley then no, since Bob Jones University is non-accredited, his title of "Doctor" is also false. If his work is so good then surely an accredited univerity, somewhere in the world, would give him a honorary doctorate.

I am not saying he has done a bad job. My gripe is with his use of the title "Doctor" as its an insult to those who have actually obtained one in a legitimate manner. While his case is not as bad as paying a few dollars and collecting your parchment, a Ph.D. involves doing research that is subjected to peer review.

I think while this matter does seem trivial to most, to others which this directly effects the absence of a (in my mind) legitimate Ph.D. and using the title "Doctor" to boost credibility is appalling, particularly on goverment documents. I can only speculate that this could only harm Ireland's progress to becoming a knowledge driven economy. As the saying goes, "Mud sticks".

A Dub in Glasgo · 09-10-2005 4:58pm

I agree it is crass for someone who gets a PhD or other qualification in this manner to use it in such a way that implies they have done some original research but it is up to employers to investigate qualifications therefore he has not deceived his employer if he correctly states where he got his PhD from.

Druid · 10-10-2005 9:31am

If he has invested time into obtaining a degree from such a university then, more fool him.

Its like buying a rolex...you get what you pay for. These fake degrees are the same as buying a rolex from some guy on ebay for $20. If you bring the watch to a jewellery shop and you are agast to find the jeweller telling you that he will not touch the watch as its clearly a knock-off.

If Mr. McSweeney was so commited to obtaining a Ph.D. why could he not have done so with somewhere like the Open University - which is accredited.

Please read what I have said.
I do not dispute the fact that he can do his job. I object to his use of the title "Doctor". As regards the facts being inaccurate, he has yet to dispute them.

bonkey · 10-10-2005 10:22am

[QUOTE=DruidThis follows from the discovery that his Ph.D. was awarded by a discredited 'degree factory' in the USA. [/quote]
Discredited by whom? Adn when you say discredited, do you mean "not held in any significant regard by those who know better", or do you mean "is not actually able to legally confer a Ph.D. but does so anyway"??? A quick google would suggest its the former....in which case one could suggest your use of the word "discredited" is as misleading as McSweeny's use of the prefix Dr. in that both are technically accurate but not entirely representative of the full truth.

The most annoying point is that the government refer to Mr. McSweeney as a "Doctor". I find this disgraceful and insulting to those who spend many hard years in obtaining their full credited doctorate award.

No more disgusting than the honorary doctorates that get handed out by respected universities to whoever they feel like.

Again, it boils back to what you mean by "discredited". If they are actually able to confer Ph.D.s then it doesn't matter how crappy a regard they're held in, the man has every right to use the term Doctor. He holds a PhD and is therefore a doctor.

To me this sounds like the same type of sour grapes I've seen in so many IT companies where they've hired MCSE/MCP/MCSD certified developers, only to discover after the fact that the qualification is effectively worthless in terms of being an accurate representation of any sort of ability.

If you're willing to accept any qualification at face value, you deserve what you get in my book.

jc

ISAW · 10-10-2005 8:16pm

Discredited by whom?

To be fair I think he meant "non accredited". Only certain universities can hand out proper degrees. Otherwise it dilutes the standard.

ISAW · 10-10-2005 11:07pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Did he actually state that his PhD was from another institution other than the Pacific Western University. If he correctly stated that he got a PhD from that institution, how can he be accused of deceiving his employers?

Have a look at a lot of MBA and Masters degrees that can be obtained in a similar manner

What do you think of the University of Dublin's MA? and the EGs and JOs.

ISAW · 10-10-2005 11:46pm

Locke said something like "It is easier to feign knowledge than to attain it". At least I think he did somewhere in his Essay on Human Understanding.

geraghd · 10-10-2005 11:49pm

What are the EGs and JOs?
The DU MAs are very different btw.
And once he was clear about where he obtained his PhD I dont see the problem though I think as Chief Science Advisor one would want to have a credible degree. And anyone can award a Ph.D or other title. I can award myself a knighthood or doctorate but such awards needs to be standardised or credited to be worth something. therefore a Ph.D from TCDs molecular medicine programme would be worth a hell of a lot more than one from PWU.
Once we are clear about the value of such degrees, I dont see the problem.
Interestestingly I was reading an article only a day or two before this came out on the chief science advisor and in his bio the IT stated that "he "earned hs PhD"" from PWU. Notice the inverted commas that the IT placed. It actually baffled me as to what it meant, and now I know... strange...
Also apparently he wasnt a nice guy to work with..

sceptre · 11-10-2005 12:10am

ISAW wrote:

Locke said something like "It is easier to feign knowledge than to attain it". At least I think he did somewhere in his Essay on Human Understanding.

Sort of stating the obvious then so if he did say it, it was probably one of the few things Leibniz didn't bother trying to rebut.

Generally any qualification that one can just go and buy isn't and shouldn't be worth anything (there are a few exceptions where it's an extra qualification bought for a few coppers where the standard has been met in a previous qualification). As for Paisley's doctorate, it's obviously a doctorate from a non-accredited college (Bob Jones uni) and an honorary doctorate at that, though I'm not sure whether recipients of honorary US doctorates generally use or can legitimately use "Doctor" as a title (here it's usually not the case). However I tend to agre with bonkey's contribution - if it's the college that's more of a fakery than the piece of paper someone has it's distinct from someone printing their own degree. The actual learning from such a course may be the same (either way it may not exist) but if you get a qualification from Sceptre Universities of Aruba Incorporated and put it on your CV as something you've actually received, it's up to prospective employers to ascertain what you might have done to attain that qualification.

A quick search by me quickly turned up the non-accredited nature of Pacific Western as well as the college getting sued by the State of Hawaii and being investigated by the General Accounting Office in the US as part of a larger enquiry into diploma mills and degree factories as well as the bogus nature of their courses. I also discovered that their exams are almost solely multiple choice which is to say the least, rather unusual for a PhD qualification. If I happened to be hiring I'd like to think someone being interviewed by me qith a PhD from any college I'd never heard of might just result in a quick check by me, particularly if I happened to be interviewing for Chief (Anything) Officer or Advisor. The fault in this case essentially lies with the hirer as far as I can see.

[strike]Of note however (from Wired), apparently the state of California regards qualifications (at least primary degrees) from Pacific Western valid if they were obtained prior to 1997. Anyone know when this accused charlatan picked up his parchment?[/strike] struck - see edanto's comment below. The article's still worth a quick look though)

edanto · 11-10-2005 12:33am

It was probably 20 years ago, since he was the head of BioResearch Ireland from 87(think) to 95.

So, maybe PWU was a more respected institution back then? That would be worth looking into.

EDIT: Sceptre, even though that wired article referred to PWU, I think they were talking about a different uni (Columbia Pacific) in the 1997 sentence.

Anyway - If it truly is a sham doctorate, then it casts a shadow over his character - but why would that affect his ability to do his current job. The government must have been impressed by references from jobs he has had in the past 20 years.

sceptre · 11-10-2005 1:01am

edanto wrote:

Sceptre, even though that wired article referred to PWU, I think they were talking about a different uni (Columbia Pacific) in the 1997 sentence.

Indeed they were, thanks.

geraghd · 11-10-2005 1:07am

sceptre wrote:

Sort of stating the obvious then so if he did say it, it was probably one of the few things Leibniz didn't bother trying to rebut.

Generally any qualification that one can just go and buy isn't and shouldn't be worth anything (there are a few exceptions where it's an extra qualification bought for a few coppers where the standard has been met in a previous qualification). As for Paisley's doctorate, it's obviously a doctorate from a non-accredited college (Bob Jones uni) and an honorary doctorate at that, though I'm not sure whether recipients of honorary US doctorates generally use or can legitimately use "Doctor" as a title (here it's usually not the case). However I tend to agre with bonkey's contribution - if it's the college that's more of a fakery than the piece of paper someone has it's distinct from someone printing their own degree. The actual learning from such a course may be the same (either way it may not exist) but if you get a qualification from Sceptre Universities of Aruba Incorporated and put it on your CV as something you've actually received, it's up to prospective employers to ascertain what you might have done to attain that qualification.

A quick search by me quickly turned up the non-accredited nature of Pacific Western as well as the college getting sued by the State of Hawaii and being investigated by the General Accounting Office in the US as part of a larger enquiry into diploma mills and degree factories as well as the bogus nature of their courses. I also discovered that their exams are almost solely multiple choice which is to say the least, rather unusual for a PhD qualification. If I happened to be hiring I'd like to think someone being interviewed by me qith a PhD from any college I'd never heard of might just result in a quick check by me, particularly if I happened to be interviewing for Chief (Anything) Officer or Advisor. The fault in this case essentially lies with the hirer as far as I can see.

[strike]Of note however (from Wired), apparently the state of California regards qualifications (at least primary degrees) from Pacific Western valid if they were obtained prior to 1997. Anyone know when this accused charlatan picked up his parchment?[/strike] struck - see edanto's comment below. The article's still worth a quick look though)

Not sure but from what I understand the State of Oregons Dept of Education doesnt recognise PWU and therefore the degrees conferred by the university..

ISAW · 11-10-2005 6:01pm

geraghd wrote:

What are the EGs and JOs?

want to enrol ad eundem,
In their graduate school. Don't defend 'em.
So I'm not up to snuff?
My B.A.'s not enough?
If the rules don't allow it, just bend 'em.

Ad eundem (a-dee-EN-dum), or ad eundem gradum (a-dee-EN-dum-GRAY-dum): the honorary granting of academic standing by a university to one whose actual work was done elsewhere.

jo - Jure officii

The DU MAs are very different btw.

How so? Do you have one?

... a Ph.D from TCDs molecular medicine programme would be worth a hell of a lot more than one from PWU.

Tcd molecular medicne does not award degrees. TCD does not eeith for that matter. The University of Dublin does.

Once we are clear about the value of such degrees, I dont see the problem.
Interestestingly I was reading an article only a day or two before this came out on the chief science advisor and in his bio the IT stated that "he "earned hs PhD"" from PWU. Notice the inverted commas that the IT placed. It actually baffled me as to what it meant, and now I know... strange...
Also apparently he wasnt a nice guy to work with..

I have heard some talk. I preferred to wait till someone went on record. I still don't see any academics going on record.

geraghd · 11-10-2005 8:00pm

How so? Do you have one?

Not yet. They are awarded on the basis that one has done their primary degree there, following 3 years of post graduate (as opposed to postgraduate) life experience. Everyone is entitled to it on those conditions. There is an administration fee but this is waived to those with a BA (Mod)/LL.B etc of 50 years standing.

Tcd molecular medicne does not award degrees. TCD does not eeith for that matter. The University of Dublin does.

Indeed, but Im not sure I get your point. I mean you are of course correct, but why offer this information?

ISAW · 11-10-2005 10:53pm

geraghd wrote:

Not yet.

It is the "yet" that confirmed my suspiscion.

They are awarded on the basis that one has done their primary degree there, following 3 years of post graduate (as opposed to postgraduate) life experience. Everyone is entitled to it on those conditions.

But is this not what Mc Sweeny had? Life experience? By the way they (the Ma (Dubl.) are only awarded to BA holders. So do you think a primary BD would be one of those conditions?

There is an administration fee but this is waived to those with a BA (Mod)/LL.B etc of 50 years standing.

900 Euro to "administrate" a degree? How much does the parchment cost. How many hours of work do the alumni office do? How is the scost accounted for? The University has no account. All the money as far as I know goes to the College. Do you know any different? So what is the difference between this and the Mc Sweeny case above?

Indeed, but Im not sure I get your point. I mean you are of course correct, but why offer this information?[/QUOTE]

ISAW · 11-10-2005 11:27pm

geraghd wrote:

Indeed, but Im not sure I get your point. I mean you are of course correct, but why offer this information?

Because you stated:

a Ph.D from TCDs molecular medicine programme would be worth a hell of a lot more than one from PWU

I pointed out that there is no such thing as a Ph.D from TCDs molecular medicine programme. It doesnt award degrees. Indeed it isnt even a wholly Trinity College endeavour. The MMU is a colaberative effort AFAIK involving RCSI and UCD. I have no idea if any research has been awarded a PhD from the University of Dublin or the National University of Ireland. I would suppost most of the research is post doctoral and published in peer review journals.

ADDENDUM:
http://acer.gen.tcd.ie/molmed/
http://acer.gen.tcd.ie/molmed/phd/
but that is a course run by TCD health science with the co operation and facilitation of the MMI. The MMI courses are short courses not held in or run by member institutes and can be found here
http://www.dmmc.ie/courses.htm#ForthcomingCourses

Well you did mention it

geraghd · 11-10-2005 11:34pm

ISAW wrote:

It is the "yet" that confirmed my suspiscion.

But is this not what Mc Sweeny had? Life experience? By the way they (the Ma (Dubl.) are only awarded to BA holders. So do you think a primary BD would be one of those conditions?

900 Euro to "administrate" a degree? How much does the parchment cost. How many hours of work do the alumni office do? How is the scost accounted for? The University has no account. All the money as far as I know goes to the College. Do you know any different? So what is the difference between this and the Mc Sweeny case above?

Indeed, but Im not sure I get your point. I mean you are of course correct, but why offer this information?

[/QUOTE]

Its a little over 400 not 900. Sweeneys degree is one that is paid for and to my knowledge nothing else done for it. The MA is one granted to those so entitled and goes back to the days when universities only awarded Masters in Arts for uni education, as Bachelors were not heard of till some time later. Our full education in Dublin, awards us with a BA (Mod) and MA. Its not a money making racked like most useless degrees, as I think you will find 400 euro not exactly a bank break.

And I never said nor aluded to the fact the the Ph.D in Molecular Medicine was awarded by anyone other than DU. It is a course from the molecular medicine programme. Under this initiative, one can do the diploma, Masters, or Ph.D programme. The Ph.D as I said is part of this.

geraghd · 11-10-2005 11:38pm

And what the BD? Bachelor in Dentistry. As far as I am aware, you are entitled to the MA with an LL.B also so I would assume a BD would be the same. Though I could see a situation where it wouldnt if the BD (assuming it is Bachelor in Dentistry) was only awared recently in the lifetime of the University and therefore considering the historic and somewhat outdated practise of the MA relatively speaking, it may not qualify. But Im only conjecturing..

geraghd · 11-10-2005 11:43pm

ISAW wrote:

I

ADDENDUM:
http://acer.gen.tcd.ie/molmed/
http://acer.gen.tcd.ie/molmed/phd/
but that is a course run by TCD health science with the co operation and facilitation of the MMI. The MMI courses are short courses not held in or run by member institutes and can be found here
http://www.dmmc.ie/courses.htm#ForthcomingCourses

Well you did mention it

I am well aware of the courses you know..

ISAW · 11-10-2005 11:49pm

geraghd wrote:

Its a little over 400 not 900.

Sorry. I referred to the ad eundem gradum MA. My mistake. and it is over 900.

Sweeneys degree is one that is paid for and to my knowledge nothing else done for it.

The MA is one granted to those so entitled and goes back to the days when universities only awarded Masters in Arts for uni education, as Bachelors were not heard of till some time later. Our full education in Dublin, awards us with a BA (Mod) and MA. Its not a money making racked like most useless degrees, as I think you will find 400 euro not exactly a bank break.

But the PhD he got was awarded to someone so entitled. The one thing Trinity can say is that they have four degree undergraduate arts degrees and only what others would call "honours" degree, though it is possible to leave in third year with a BA. But an MA is understood internationally to be a postgraduate qualification. So one is getting the qualification without actually submitting a thesis for example. I did not say that was wrong I asked you what is the difference?

And I never said nor aluded to the fact the the Ph.D in Molecular Medicine was awarded by anyone other than DU. It is a course from the molecular medicine programme. Under this initiative, one can do the diploma, Masters, or Ph.D programme. The Ph.D as I said is part of this.

It isnt! See my other reply I added an addendum. The MMI is not an accredited institution for the awarding of PhD's no more than the one that gave one to Sweeny. You said there was a difference. How is there?

ISAW · 12-10-2005 12:00am

geraghd wrote:

I am well aware of the courses you know..

But from what you stated one might think that the MMI awards PhD's and is over the courses. It isnt! It facilitates the courses and supplied training . It has an educational function. I do not deny that. It is a new type of endeavour and extermly worthwhile I do not deny that. But it does not award a PhD. The NUI or UoD awards the degrees. This may seem moot but iot relates to the topic under discussion namely whatan acredited instution actually is.

i may be wrong about the MA from BA since Chapter XXII of the TCD Statutes states "Master in Arts: A bachelor of at least three years standing is eligible to proceed to this degree". given a BD is also only accepted three yeard after a degree from the University of Dublin and BA s are awarded before BAI s I withdraw the "only certain batchelors" i.e. BA's stipulation since it is redundant.

geraghd · 12-10-2005 12:01am

Whats the ad eundem gradum MA?

Whatever the MA is understood to be generally is of no consequence. DU is not awarding the MA for postgraduate work. Its the basic qualification after 4 years of a degree. For research and thesis work, DU awards the M.Litt. The MA should not and I done believe is presended by those with it, as some sort of extra postgraduate work or thesis done. It is simply a part of the qualifications one receives. No one can get the MA without doing four years in TCD.
Sweeney on the other hand, went straight up to this University, and as I understand it simply paid for a Ph.D without doing anything else. Noone can do that with the MA, the MA from DU comes after four years studying and 3 years following that. No more, no less.

Whats the MMI, or do you mean the IMM? I think you are arguing with me on something I never said or believed.. whatever about the institutions, DU awards the Ph.D., I never said differently.

geraghd · 12-10-2005 12:05am

[QUOTE=ISAW]But from what you stated one might think that the MMI awards PhD's and is over the courses. It isnt! It facilitates the courses and supplied training . It has an educational function. I do not deny that. It is a new type of endeavour and extermly worthwhile I do not deny that. But it does not award a PhD. The NUI or UoD awards the degrees. This may seem moot but iot relates to the topic under discussion namely whatan acredited instution actually is.

i may be wrong about the MA from BA since Chapter XXII of the TCD Statutes states "Master in Arts: A bachelor of at least three years standing is eligible to proceed to this degree". given a BD is also only accepted three yeard after a degree from the University of Dublin and BA s are awarded before BAI s I withdraw the "only certain batchelors" i.e. BA's stipulation since it is redundant.[/QUOTE]

I dont know how one might think that at all. I never even mentioned the MMI (again do you mean the IMM or what is the MMI).
and could you clarify what you are saying in your last paragraph because I dont understand what you mean. And again, what is the BD?

ISAW · 12-10-2005 1:35am

geraghd wrote:

I dont know how one might think that at all. I never even mentioned the MMI (again do you mean the IMM or what is the MMI).
and could you clarify what you are saying in your last paragraph because I dont understand what you mean. And again, what is the BD?

Institute of Molecular Medicine http://acer.gen.tcd.ie/molmed/
Bachelor of Divinity. Bachelors with three years standing can also apply for that so I had it the wrong way around. But one could be working in TCD and get an MA jo without doing any thesis for it.

edanto · 12-10-2005 1:49am

geraghd wrote:

Sweeney on the other hand, went straight up to this University, and as I understand it simply paid for a Ph.D without doing anything else.

Establishing this with certainty would certainly bring the man into a small bit of disrepute.

If, on the other hand, the PhD linked to some considerable achievments in research, even in industry, then I'd argue that he's very much deserving of the title. He is certainly entitled to it - as I read the yankee edu sites, PWU is an approved, but not accredited college.

sceptre · 12-10-2005 1:58am

ISAW wrote:

It isnt! See my other reply I added an addendum. The MMI is not an accredited institution for the awarding of PhD's no more than the one that gave one to Sweeny. You said there was a difference. How is there?

The PhD is granted by an accredited institution isn't it? If it is, that's the difference, if it isn't you could well have a point. If you don't have a point there we're going into something a wibble tangent with a major in nit-picking and to be honest I don't see the point in illustrating how the TCD boys apparently mispronounce ad eundem. If you do have a point then we're not.

The topic under discussion hasn't been about what an accredited institution actually is as far as I can see, the closest it's come to that is whether a particular qualification has been granted by an accredited institution (and you'll presumably appreciate the distinction). Or an institution of any value as there appear to be a number of non-accredited institutions in the US that issue degrees that are accepted by offices of degree authorisation over there. Mind you none of these appear to have a special entry saying that there's no evidence that it's an acceptable provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards on the exhaustive list of useless or made-up colleges provided by the Oregon ODA, though Pacific Western has such a specific entry. Might be partly because all their exams consist of twenty true/false or fill-in-the-blanks questions chosen from a total of sixty questions available, which frankly makes the brain dump sites for Microsoft exams look rather complicated. That's assuming that Mr McSweeney ever sat any of these exams though from what I've read about PWU's reputation for all their "courses" from undergrad level up and "exams" it wouldn't really matter.

I'd still blame the employer for not bothering to check.

edanto · 12-10-2005 2:18am

PWU seems like a pretty shoddy institution now. I wonder if it was like that when he became Dr McSweeney?

There's no doubt his first employer after that PhD should have checked out exactly how good he was if it was a doctorate level job. I wonder where he worked after PWU?

Mr Barry McSweeney

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