Landlady turning sitting room into bedroom

Tombomb7 · 15-10-2017 10:15pm #1

Hi all,

Hope you can help four working professionals working in Dublin. We're currently living in a 4 bed house with a small kitchen and decent sized sitting room. Paying 600 each a month plus bills in the City Centre.

The landlady has decided to turn the sitting room into a bedroom leaving only the cramped kitchen as a living space. She's bought a second microwave (not sure what her plan for it is) and has put three fridges into the three big bed rooms (my box room is too small), presumably to make up for the upcoming lack of fridge space.

We are all unhappy about it and she's just put a single bed into the sitting room. She's registered for a four bedroom house with the tenancy board.

Is there anything we can do about this? My thoughts are that we can't do a thing, she holds all the cards and gets to make the rules of the game.

Any response would be much appreciated!

judeboy101 · 15-10-2017 10:17pm

Tombomb7 wrote: »

Hi all,

Hope you can help four working professionals working in Dublin. We're currently living in a 4 bed house with a small kitchen and decent sized sitting room. Paying 600 each a month plus bills in the City Centre.

The landlady has decided to turn the sitting room into a bedroom leaving only the cramped kitchen as a living space. She's bought a second microwave (not sure what her plan for it is) and has put three fridges into the three big bed rooms (my box room is too small), presumably to make up for the upcoming lack of fridge space.

We are all unhappy about it and she's just put a single bed into the sitting room. She's registered for a four bedroom house with the tenancy board.

Is there anything we can do about this? My thoughts are that we can't do a thing, she holds all the cards and gets to make the rules of the game.

Any response would be much appreciated!

Fridges on bedrooms? Sounds like the beginnings of a bedsit

davindub · 15-10-2017 11:04pm

Tombomb7 wrote: »

Hi all,

Hope you can help four working professionals working in Dublin. We're currently living in a 4 bed house with a small kitchen and decent sized sitting room. Paying 600 each a month plus bills in the City Centre.

The landlady has decided to turn the sitting room into a bedroom leaving only the cramped kitchen as a living space. She's bought a second microwave (not sure what her plan for it is) and has put three fridges into the three big bed rooms (my box room is too small), presumably to make up for the upcoming lack of fridge space.

We are all unhappy about it and she's just put a single bed into the sitting room. She's registered for a four bedroom house with the tenancy board.

Is there anything we can do about this? My thoughts are that we can't do a thing, she holds all the cards and gets to make the rules of the game.

Any response would be much appreciated!

Assuming the landlady does not live there, it depends on what is in your contract, does it mention shared access to the sitting area? If not it is more than likely implied anyway.

Best thing to do is not rely on posters here, seek help - Threshold, Flac, solicitor etc.

April 73 · 15-10-2017 11:08pm

Are you renting the house as a whole unit or are you renting by the room separately? What is in your lease agreement? You may be able to stop this so it's worth investigating.
It is crazy - you're paying for a service that has suddenly been reduced by having no sitting room & sharing the kitchen & bathroom with a fifth person. Sheer greed on the part of the LL.

Pawwed Rig · 15-10-2017 11:12pm

davindub wrote: »

Best thing to do is not rely on posters here, seek help - Threshold, Flac, solicitor etc.

I would trust the posters here before threshold to be fair.
OP - Google rent standards and see if it says anything about living areas.

You may be a licensee though so may not have any rights.

antoinolachtnai · 16-10-2017 12:00am

It is an interesting and complex one. I would say that no, she cannot reduce the quality of your accommodation like this if it is a registered (or registrable) tenancy.

What you do next really depends on whether the whole property is registered as one tenancy, or if you each have separate tenancies registered.

Tombomb7 · 16-10-2017 5:43am

Thank you to all who have replied thus far. We are all renting rooms individually so I am not renting the entire house.

There is no mention of access to a shared sitting room/living space in the contract. I think under the contents of the house it mentions a gas stove/fire which is located in the sitting room, but not sure if that would be a loophole. I'll double check the lease this morning.

I'll also check with the associations listed above because the reduction in quality is something to go on and will you know what I find out.

If I was to try and contend this I feel I can predict the outcome: 1) nothing happens but I have to leave as the landlady won't renew my tenancy since I'm so much hassle and she can easily rent my room, 2) we prevent it and she doesn't renew my lease as I'm too much hassle.

My current lease isn't up until July next year so I'm assuming she can't just kick me out if I'm paying rent, but again this is Dublin and she's holding all the cards so I wouldn't be surprised at anything.

FishOnABike · 16-10-2017 6:11am

One of the key questions would be if the landlady also lives in the house. If she does you are licencees and have very few rights. You would essentially be paying guests.

If the landlady does not live in the house you are tenants and if you are there over six months are protected by part four of the residential tenancy act. If your tenancy is for a fixed term until July that would be in addition to your rights under the residential tenancy act.

I know if I was renting a room in a four bedroom house and a common area like a living or sitting room was being turned into an extra bedroom I would not be happy.

Get some advice on your exact circumstances as any answers may depend on how the house was advertised, the terms in your lease, how long you are there and the same for the others in the house.

Gumbo · 16-10-2017 8:31am

Lodge a complaint to the Environmental standards section of your council.
Housing standards could be breached and also overcrowding issues.

Marcusm · 16-10-2017 8:35am

Tombomb7 wrote: »

Hi all,

Hope you can help four working professionals working in Dublin. We're currently living in a 4 bed house with a small kitchen and decent sized sitting room. Paying 600 each a month plus bills in the City Centre.

The landlady has decided to turn the sitting room into a bedroom leaving only the cramped kitchen as a living space. She's bought a second microwave (not sure what her plan for it is) and has put three fridges into the three big bed rooms (my box room is too small), presumably to make up for the upcoming lack of fridge space.

We are all unhappy about it and she's just put a single bed into the sitting room. She's registered for a four bedroom house with the tenancy board.

Is there anything we can do about this? My thoughts are that we can't do a thing, she holds all the cards and gets to make the rules of the game.

Any response would be much appreciated!

Has she registered a single 4 bed tenancy or separate tenancies. If the former, she has breached her agreement to grant you peaceful enjoyment of the property.

antoinolachtnai · 16-10-2017 8:58am

The question in my mind is whether it is registered as one tenancy or four, not whether you have four separate leases.

I assume, because it is registered, that the owner does not live there. But this is a very important detail.

Tombomb7 · 16-10-2017 10:11am

Hi all,

The owner doesn't live in the house and normally doesn't visit unless a repair needs to be made or a tenant is moving in/out. The other three tenants in the house are relatively new (the last few months) as the other lads moved out between June/July and now but I've been here since January 2015.

I can also confirm the house is currently registered as a 4 bedroom property, not five. I'm contacting those associations this morning so will let you know what they say.

Pawwed Rig · 16-10-2017 10:20am

Whose name is on the lease?

Tombomb7 · 16-10-2017 10:35am

The lease is between the Landlady and I, it's a "Memorandum Of Agreement" where I am referred to as "The Tenant" so effectively we jointly sign the agreement, I as "The Tenant".

antoinolachtnai · 16-10-2017 11:30am

Well get as much advice as you can, but it looks to me like if you were go to RTB, you would hold all the cards.

You do need to clearly explain to the landlord that you want her to stop what she is doing and remove the unwanted furniture.

But get as much advice as you can.

Cuddlesworth · 16-10-2017 12:03pm

FishOnABike wrote: »

If the landlady does not live in the house you are tenants and if you are there over six months are protected by part four of the residential tenancy act. If your tenancy is for a fixed term until July that would be in addition to your rights under the residential tenancy act.

That's not accurate. From the RTB's site itself.

What is a Licensee?

A licensee is a person who occupies accommodation under license. Licensees can arise in all sorts of accommodation but most commonly in the following four areas;
persons staying in hotels, guesthouses, hostels, etc.,
persons sharing a house/apartment with its owner e.g. under the ‘rent a room’ scheme or ‘in digs’,
persons occupying accommodation in which the owner is not resident under a formal license arrangement with the owner where the occupants are not entitled to its exclusive use and the owner has continuing access to the accommodation and/or can move around or change the occupants, and
persons staying in rented accommodation at the invitation of the tenant.

The provisions of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 do not apply to the first three categories. Although most of the Act does not apply to the fourth category also, some provisions are relevant where the licensee is residing with the tenant and this leaflet is aimed at persons in that category.

Tombomb7 wrote: »

The lease is between the Landlady and I, it's a "Memorandum Of Agreement" where I am referred to as "The Tenant" so effectively we jointly sign the agreement, I as "The Tenant".

Shes screwed herself there.

I would suggest getting together with the other tenants. The best option would be to approach the landlord and say that since she is removing a essential part of the house, your rent should go down. Say 800 euros divided by number of tenants.

16-10-2017 12:34pm

If you are renting a room only then you may not have much say, you have an agreement to rent the room but the common areas are just a shared space that you may have little control or say over.

April 73 · 16-10-2017 2:44pm

Tombomb7 wrote: »

The lease is between the Landlady and I, it's a "Memorandum Of Agreement" where I am referred to as "The Tenant" so effectively we jointly sign the agreement, I as "The Tenant".

What else does the lease say? Does it refer to a four bedroom property? And does it refer to you renting the property or being given access to only a bedroom within the property?

Tombomb7 · 16-10-2017 3:01pm

Unfortunately not April, it merely states there is a gas stove on the contents of the house which is located in the sitting room but there is no mention of living space, the sitting room, or anything of the sort. I think we're simply at her mercy

Tombomb7 · 16-10-2017 3:04pm

April 73 wrote: »

What else does the lease say? Does it refer to a four bedroom property? And does it refer to you renting the property or being given access to only a bedroom within the property?

Unfortunately nothing of the sort, it merely says furnished premises and refers to our address.

Marcusm · 16-10-2017 4:47pm

Tombomb7 wrote: »

Unfortunately not April, it merely states there is a gas stove on the contents of the house which is located in the sitting room but there is no mention of living space, the sitting room, or anything of the sort. I think we're simply at her mercy

If she has registered it as a single tenancy, i.e. on reference number for all of you with the RTB, then she will find it difficult to enforce any other arrangement at the RTB than a single continuing tenancy with changing tenants. In cases where the tenants have had exclusive use of the property collectively then the property is not in her possession as a result of which it is not within her power to create additional bed spaces as she has no authority to enter the property other than with your agreement for periodic inspections. She is proposing to breach the most fundamental of the landlord's obligations "to [provide] peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling".

Marcusm · 16-10-2017 4:49pm

Tombomb7 wrote: »

Unfortunately nothing of the sort, it merely says furnished premises and refers to our address.

That is to your advantage if the dwelling is specified as the address then it is clear that it is the whole house and not simply some small part of it. I thunk landlord's should be entitled to maximise their rent but I think that yours is a muppet who doesn't realise how basic her error is.

April 73 · 16-10-2017 8:24pm

Who is registered as the tenant on the RTB website?
I think you've a reasonable chance of fighting this as a tenant in the property.
Sometimes people on here talk about renting rooms where the LL sends in a cleaner to prove that the tenants only have use of bedroom but no expectation of ownership of common spaces. Your LL hasn't done this I presume?

LuckyLloyd · 16-10-2017 8:39pm

You can fight this.

Start by contacting the Landlady to clearly indicate your opposition to the proposed change. She may simply back off if she realises that you are willing to object.

Purple Sheep · 28-10-2017 4:03pm

I'm curious about this from the other side. A few answers suggest that if the landlord lives in the house too then it's probably ok? I live in a 2 bed and thought I'd rent out the second room to help with paying the mortgage if needed, but if times got really tough I could move into the living room for a few months or a couple of years and rent out my room too while waiting to fall back on my feet. Beyond minding the rent-a-room relief limits, are there issues with doing something like that?

James 007 · 28-10-2017 4:15pm

Micah Substantial Reggae wrote: »

If you are renting a room only then you may not have much say, you have an agreement to rent the room but the common areas are just a shared space that you may have little control or say over.

No, this cant be correct. If I view a room I take a room on the basis of looking at all the common areas, checking to see how many people are in the house. If there is no sitting room or a 'converted' sitting room in a house to a bedroom I would not have taken a room, I would walk away. The landlady has changed the arrangement.

I would take the bed apart & chuck it out the back. Also for now I would withhold rent & if she confronts you just state that you are all not happy with this change. All withhold rent until it is resolved. If she kicks you out on the street take a case against her through the PRTB.

James 007 · 28-10-2017 4:20pm

Purple Sheep wrote: »

I'm curious about this from the other side. A few answers suggest that if the landlord lives in the house too then it's probably ok? I live in a 2 bed and thought I'd rent out the second room to help with paying the mortgage if needed, but if times got really tough I could move into the living room for a few months or a couple of years and rent out my room too while waiting to fall back on my feet. Beyond minding the rent-a-room relief limits, are there issues with doing something like that?

Provided your tenants are new it would be acceptable, otherwise I would say not. People always look at it as if a person is renting a room only. For me thats not the case. I take everything into consideration: bedroom and communical space such as kitchen/sitting room/bathroom etc. My rent is not just for a bedroom, its the bedroom + waht comes with it. No doubt you could make an arrangement, but the rent should be reduced to compensate the other tenants

dudara · 28-10-2017 4:26pm

James 007 wrote: »

No, this cant be correct. If I view a room I take a room on the basis of looking at all the common areas, checking to see how many people are in the house. If there is no sitting room or a 'converted' sitting room in a house to a bedroom I would not have taken a room, I would walk away. The landlady has changed the arrangement.

I would take the bed apart & chuck it out the back. Also for now I would withhold rent & if she confronts you just state that you are all not happy with this change. All withhold rent until it is resolved. If she kicks you out on the street take a case against her through the PRTB.

Withholding rent will put you in breach of contract and is not recommended.

James 007 · 28-10-2017 4:34pm

dudara wrote: »

Withholding rent will put you in breach of contract and is not recommended.

And thats fine, it will take the landlady 18 months to get the tenants out. It will be a headache for the landlady. If she had stipulated in advance when someone is viewing a room that he intends to put a bed in there I would be okay with it, because I would have the full picture to make the decision to move in or not.

I would also have prevented her putting a fridge into my bedroom. I would take that fridge and chuck it into the garden out the back too. To be some way kind to the landlady I would have the bed dismantled and standing in the hall, have all fridges in the hall ready for collection and all 3-4 of the tenants confront her directly.

You are professionals not students, so don't even accept a reduction on rent, this is about effecting your comfort level in a house. Take the hard stance and tell her you are not accepting this otherwise as a group of tenants withhold the rent

28-10-2017 5:46pm

James 007 wrote: »

And thats fine, it will take the landlady 18 months to get the tenants out. It will be a headache for the landlady. If she had stipulated in advance when someone is viewing a room that he intends to put a bed in there I would be okay with it, because I would have the full picture to make the decision to move in or not.

I would also have prevented her putting a fridge into my bedroom. I would take that fridge and chuck it into the garden out the back too. To be some way kind to the landlady I would have the bed dismantled and standing in the hall, have all fridges in the hall ready for collection and all 3-4 of the tenants confront her directly.

You are professionals not students, so don't even accept a reduction on rent, this is about effecting your comfort level in a house. Take the hard stance and tell her you are not accepting this otherwise as a group of tenants withhold the rent

I've seen room only renters out on their ear in less than 18 mins so I wouldn't be so confident

FishOnABike · 29-10-2017 1:43pm

Any advice to withold rent is very poor advice. By doing so you would put yourself in a position where the LL could lawfully terminate your tenancy.

You would seem to be in the right at the moment, to insist that your current living arrangements are not upset. Why jepordise that ?

You could withold rent and it might take 18 months, an RTB ruling and court enforcement to have you removed but you would still owe that rent and possibly the legal costs of that process and if you fail to pay that, then the additional legal costs of obtaining and enforcing a judgement for rent owed and those earlier legal costs on top of that again.

It seems likely you share a joint tenancy for the house (not just a room in the house) and are protected by part IV of the Residential Tenancy Act, and if in a RPZ against any unreasonable increase in your rent if you (and the other tenants) are firm in rejecting these changes to your accommodation.

It may be the LLs property but, as long as you are renting there, it is your home and you are entitled to have it respected as your home and to its peaceful enjoyment.

Landlady turning sitting room into bedroom

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