EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition

billybonkers · 25-01-2017 4:01pm #1

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law/u/18856427?tk=077jaLmaXKzOX-dcJfnUuh8f2kinLDQWTRP2rb6YlQ0&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

"22 DEC 2016 — EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition for Investigation. This is an endorsement of you and all the 29,500 signatories of the petition at https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

EU Petition original text:
Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars (€700 v €280 p.a.). €439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water, thus, ALSO subsidising water charges of those who can afford new cars.

This Irish law, in response to EU directives, is a serious maladministration and is totally unacceptable. UK MPs refused to implement this (equivalent) law in 2004 and it was amended to represent the legitimate wishes of their UK electorate and delivered fairness.

13,000 (now 29,500) have signed the Unjust Irish Car Tax petition calling for a fair just Irish motor tax system at:

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

Unnecessary passing of "regressive" tax laws in Ireland has caused political reactions in the streets and social divisions and hardship to lower socio economic groups.

Progressive, appropriate, fair and moderate tax laws to fund public services and meet EU directives are acceptable."

Not sure if anything will come of this but compelling points no doubt!

colm_mcm · 25-01-2017 4:20pm

There's only one thing for it. Increase co2 rates.

Stravos Murphy · 25-01-2017 4:26pm

OSI wrote: »

So, if this goes anywhere, where do we pull the ~€439 million that currently goes to funding Irish Water, given no one wants to pay for it directly?

Let's get concerned about Irish Water why?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 25-01-2017 4:45pm

"€439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water". Where did that figure come from?

BrokenArrows · 25-01-2017 4:50pm

Anakin Great Polyester wrote: »

"€439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water". Where did that figure come from?

Here is one location. Dont know how reliable it is or where they got their data.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/motor-tax-money-spent-on-irish-water-as-roads-washed-away-ff/

Carpentry · 25-01-2017 4:52pm

the roads are in bits and the water is just about good enough to be drinkable ... yeah, so where the fcuking money goes ?!?!

Stravos Murphy · 25-01-2017 4:54pm

Carpentry wrote: »

the roads are in bits and the water is just about good enough to be drinkable ... yeah, so where the fcuking money goes ?!?!

Funding Irish Water wages it seems.

pa990 · 25-01-2017 4:57pm

There are a number of solutions.

1) flat rate of motor tax for everyone.
2) increase co2 rates of motor tax
3) put everyone back onto cc rates

The following options will never happen.

1) incorporating motor tax into fuel price
2) reducing cc rates

25-01-2017 4:58pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

There's only one thing for it. Increase co2 rates.

Yep,
no way they will drop the pre 08 cars

Cuddlesworth · 25-01-2017 6:25pm

Jesus, what a load of rhetoric.

We pay Tax, that Tax goes into a pot and services get assigned money out of it. Irish water cost us before and its costs us now. They pulled that figure out of their asses.

Blazer · 25-01-2017 6:54pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Jesus, what a load of rhetoric.

We pay Tax, that Tax goes into a pot and services get assigned money out of it. Irish water cost us before and its costs us now. They pulled that figure out of their asses.

You do know they pulled 650million out of the motor fund to help set up Irish Water??
The government are getting approx 5.5 billion a year from motorists on vrt, excise, tax, etc etc.. so its no stretch of the imagination to think they're pulling more money from the fund to keep Irish water going.
The problem is the motorists and PAYE workers are keeping this country on it's toes...barely.
We have people that won't pay for water,,,in fact won't pay for anything and Sinn Fein publicly supports these people. We have unions who think the country is a gravy train and have no compunction in holding the country to ransom to pay for these pay rises or as some people call them "restoration of pay".
I won't even get into the government, the Dail and the Senate who are completely overpaid buffoons who don't known their ass from their elbow but sure as hell know how to expense..

bear1 · 25-01-2017 7:07pm

I can't see what the eu can actually do here.
They have no say in how much the government charges it's citizens for motor tax.
If they stick all cars on co2 rates from say the year 2000 then maybe but owning a luxobarge prior to 08 will be a bitch

bmwguy · 25-01-2017 7:21pm

Carpentry wrote: »

the roads are in bits and the water is just about good enough to be drinkable ... yeah, so where the fcuking money goes ?!?!

The roads are generally not all in bits and the water is generally very drinkable. Obvious exceptions but for 95% of population they drive on good roads and drink good water

Carpentry · 25-01-2017 7:58pm

bmwguy wrote: »

The roads are generally not all in bits and the water is generally very drinkable. Obvious exceptions but for 95% of population they drive on good roads and drink good water

yeah, yeah, yeah ... 95%

So how come on 100 meters stretch of the street there is about 10 potholes, usually badly fixed road surface after mounting the water meters ?

bear1 · 25-01-2017 8:39pm

Carpentry wrote: »

yeah, yeah, yeah ... 95%

So how come on 100 meters stretch of the street there is about 10 potholes, usually badly fixed road surface after mounting the water meters ?

Which Street? There is more than one..

Dartz · 25-01-2017 8:44pm

billybonkers wrote: »

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law/u/18856427?tk=077jaLmaXKzOX-dcJfnUuh8f2kinLDQWTRP2rb6YlQ0&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

"22 DEC 2016 — EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition for Investigation. This is an endorsement of you and all the 29,500 signatories of the petition at https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

EU Petition original text:
Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars (€700 v €280 p.a.). €439 million from Motor tax is used each year to fund Irish water, thus, ALSO subsidising water charges of those who can afford new cars.

This Irish law, in response to EU directives, is a serious maladministration and is totally unacceptable. UK MPs refused to implement this (equivalent) law in 2004 and it was amended to represent the legitimate wishes of their UK electorate and delivered fairness.

13,000 (now 29,500) have signed the Unjust Irish Car Tax petition calling for a fair just Irish motor tax system at:

https://www.change.org/p/unfair-car-tax-law

Unnecessary passing of "regressive" tax laws in Ireland has caused political reactions in the streets and social divisions and hardship to lower socio economic groups.

Progressive, appropriate, fair and moderate tax laws to fund public services and meet EU directives are acceptable."

Not sure if anything will come of this but compelling points no doubt!

If they move my car to the Co2 system, I'm ****ed. It'd more than trippel.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 25-01-2017 9:25pm

Thanks but IMO I wouldnt call that a reliable source. Was trying to find the source of the €€€ figure but seems to be next to impossible.

Roads around my area are completely f**ked. The irony is that most of the damage has been caused by Irish Water.

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Here is one location. Dont know how reliable it is or where they got their data.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/motor-tax-money-spent-on-irish-water-as-roads-washed-away-ff/

grogi · 25-01-2017 9:56pm

billybonkers wrote: »

13,000 (now 29,500) have signed the Unjust Irish Car Tax petition calling for a fair just Irish motor tax system at /.../

I wish the people who signed the petition (I guess majority of them driving an older vehicle) checked how much would they pay on the CO2 scale...

I have the feeling than not many - the change would typically be beneficial for pre 2008 Prius owners, not many other cars...

colm_mcm · 25-01-2017 9:58pm

grogi wrote: »

I wish the people who signed the petition (I guess majority of them driving an older vehicle) checked how much would they pay on the CO2 scale...

I have the feeling than not many - the change would typically be beneficial for pre 2008 Prius owners, not many other cars...

And most diesel cars.

The micra drivers that would have to pay €390 and €570 on their 1.0 misery boxes would be on to Joe!

Toyotafanboi · 25-01-2017 10:05pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

And most diesel cars.

The micra drivers that would have to pay €390 and €570 on their 1.0 misery boxes would be on to Joe!

And pre 2008 Civic owners, who would drop from 640 to 390 :pac:

grogi · 25-01-2017 10:08pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

And most diesel cars.

Agreed, but not universally... E90 320d would be better on CO2 (710 vs 390), but PreLCI E60 520d not (IIRC 710 vs 750). BMW engines have always been extremely frugal, I would expect much worse figures for other manufacturers...

newacc2015 · 25-01-2017 10:16pm

Blazer wrote: »

The government are getting approx 5.5 billion a year from motorists on vrt, excise, tax, etc etc.. so its no stretch of the imagination to think they're pulling more money from the fund to keep Irish water going.
The problem is the motorists and PAYE workers are keeping this country on it's toes...barely.

Do you know what the taxes on cars from VAT, VRT and excise is so high? Although you think income tax is keeping the Government flush, low income taxes are the reason why indirect taxes are so high. Income tax a percentage of total tax take in Ireland is ridiculously low for an European nation. Around half of Irish workers pay no income tax and top 10% pay 70% of all income tax. When you have such low income tax take relative to most of Europe, you have to get money elsewhere ie from indirect taxes like VAT, excise

All taxation is thrown into a pot and expenditure is taken out of it. Yes money for IW is coming from tax take, but it is for everything else too.

colm_mcm · 25-01-2017 10:26pm

grogi wrote: »

Agreed, but not universally... E90 320d would be better on CO2 (710 vs 390), but PreLCI E60 520d not (IIRC 710 vs 750). BMW engines have always been extremely frugal, I would expect much worse figures for other manufacturers...

Yeah but your bread and butter Passat/avensiss and anything smaller would almost all go down.

grogi · 25-01-2017 10:43pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Yeah but your bread and butter Passat/avensiss and anything smaller would almost all go down.

How many of them diesel are in the road anyway?

colm_mcm · 25-01-2017 10:51pm

New car sales were always in a petrol majority before 08, but keep in mind there are a lot of pre 08 diesels imported from the uk that are still knocking around.

Moot point though, it's never going to happen. They won't just give money away. They couldn't get away with hiking the other half up to co2 tax either.

Blazer · 26-01-2017 1:55pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

Do you know what the taxes on cars from VAT, VRT and excise is so high? Although you think income tax is keeping the Government flush, low income taxes are the reason why indirect taxes are so high. Income tax a percentage of total tax take in Ireland is ridiculously low for an European nation. Around half of Irish workers pay no income tax and top 10% pay 70% of all income tax. When you have such low income tax take relative to most of Europe, you have to get money elsewhere ie from indirect taxes like VAT, excise

All taxation is thrown into a pot and expenditure is taken out of it. Yes money for IW is coming from tax take, but it is for everything else too.

I'm not arguing with you on those points..I completely agree with the concept of USC which is everyone pays a little bit. I pay the high rate of tax and it annoys me when people complain about it considering how fair it is.
While our high rate has too low any entry compared to europe the lower paid taxes as you rightly point on are ridiculously small.
If anything more taxes like USC and we can increase the threshold for the higher rates to take the burden off the working/middle class etc.

ozmo · 26-01-2017 2:04pm

I agree is very unfair - I drive a car from from the last Millennium...

But if this succeeds - all that will happen is the 2008+ cars will pay a higher tax - not us paying lower
- similar to the guy who forced Women to pay same insurance costs - Men didn't get cheaper Insurance like he thought - that law helped noone.

jackofalltrades · 26-01-2017 2:59pm

That petition has to be the biggest pile of shíté I've read in a while, it's a good argument for being able to negatively sign petitions.
It's like they got the lunatic socialist who goes to every protest to right down all their thoughts.

murphym7 · 26-01-2017 2:59pm

Economic injustice due to maladministration in Ireland of the EU Carbon & Water directive causing a Two Tier Motor Tax system where owners of older (pre-2008) cars pay, typically, 3 TIMES more annual motor tax than those who can afford new cars

I'd buy that argument a few years ago, I don't think it holds much water now. Nobody is asking anyone to buy a new car, a 9 year old car would do just fine.

colm_mcm · 26-01-2017 4:35pm

These is still quite a premium to get into a chape tax car.
Even still. The cc rates need to be looked at. The cheapest 1.0 rate should be raised a bit for a start.

robtri · 26-01-2017 10:32pm

from what i heard they looking to have th new tax raised and the old lowered ... to be more balanced

EU Petitions Committee has accepted the Unfair Irish Motor Tax petition

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