Automatic - is DSG the only way to go?

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

So I may be in the market for changing to an automatic in the near future.

I've only drove two automatics before, a Seat Leon DSG and a Ford Focus automatic. The automatic in the Leon was far superior and as such I was wondering is DSG the way to go if you want the top automatic experience or do other manufacturers have automatics that are close?

Budget would be up to €20k for something with a bit of poke for the motorway, is comfortable, has a few toys including cruise control and is diesel.

Open to any car size really as long as it fits the criteria, with a budget like this is it best to be looking at VAG cars or is there other alternatives?

I have had numerous Auto, and have in the last 3 cars made sure i bought DSG, they are superb in my opinion, always in the correct gear, they dont drop down 3 gears when you accelerate and tend to be very smooth.
It has lead me to stay in the VAG group just to have the DSG box.


I have recently bought one of these for my wife, amazing car https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/seat-leon-fr-st-dsg-panoramic-alcantara/12018764

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

So I may be in the market for changing to an automatic in the near future.

I've only drove two automatics before, a Seat Leon DSG and a Ford Focus automatic. The automatic in the Leon was far superior and as such I was wondering is DSG the way to go if you want the top automatic experience or do other manufacturers have automatics that are close?

Budget would be up to €20k for something with a bit of poke for the motorway, is comfortable, has a few toys including cruise control and is diesel.

Open to any car size really as long as it fits the criteria, with a budget like this is it best to be looking at VAG cars or is there other alternatives?

There are numerous automatic gearboxes worth considering, in two groups:

Traditionally designed transmission with torque converter. Because those are usually bigger, they are used mainly by RWD cars, such as BMW (except for M-series, which use DCT 7DCI700), Mercedes, Lexus etc. Some FWD cars will use similar design - Peugeot, Citroen, Volvo, older Fords and Renaults etc. The great advantage of this design is that DMF (Dual Mass Flywheel - replacement of which might cost around €1000) is not needed, as the torque converter takes care of the torsional vibration.

Typically this design was less efficient, but the newest generation of those gearboxes - such as Skyactive-Drive from Mazda and EAT6 from PSA - deliver better economy than a manual gearbox. I would have no problems buying a car with one, especially if it was serviced properly.

Dual Clutch transmissions are new kids on the block - the first one was DSG released by VW and LUK around 2006.

• DSG and S-Tronic from VAG group. I personally am not a fan of DQ200 - which is 7-speed dry clutch transmission used in majority of VAGs (petrols and diesels below 2.0l) - as the clutches burn quickly, especially with heavier cars and when used in intensive S&S traffic. In our climate all wet clutch trans seem solid.
• Power-shift - dual clutch from Ford. Again, the wet one, aka MPS6 and 6DCT450 is solid. The dry one - used in smaller cars - DPS6 or 6DCT250 - might be prone to similar problems. If the engine generates less than 250Nm of torque, it will have the dry transmission.
• EDC - used by Renault. Getrag claims it is 7DCT300, but promotional material from Renault says it is 6 speed. I have seen somewhere that is is the 6DCT250 and cars with EDC will have the torque reduced to 240Nm - which supports this theory. It would mean it is the same gearbox as with Ford. I haven't verified myself.
• Fiat, Hyundai, Kia etc - everyone has something

Contrary to the traditional AT, DCT - as it consists of two robotised manual gearboxes - does require DMF. Plus there are two clutches, not one With the exception of DQ200 they proved to be reliable and I would not have reservations to buy one.


What you really need/want to avoid is:
- 4 speed gearboxes - ruin performance and economy.
- robotised manual gearboxes - used by virtually every manufacturer, typically with smaller cars with abysmal engines. ETG6 and EGS6 from PSA, MMT from Toyota are infamous examples used in bigger cars.
- CVT transmissions - they provide excellent economy and performance, but the feeling of driving one is completely opposite. You don't feel the car is accelerating. I got used to one in the Prius, but majority of people don't like them. Majority of CVTs use belt/cone design which is not that reliable in general, but Hybrid Toyotas use completely different eCVT - which is bullet-proof.
- multi-tronic transmission - a marketing name for a CVT transmission used by Audi.



Show the cars you'd like, we'll tell you why not

Alun wrote: »

I've always been puzzled by this. /.../

Anyway, I've never driven one, so I don't have any direct experience, but it seems to me that, from a theoretical standpoint at least, a gearbox with an infinite number of ratios should be the holy grail.

It is the grail when you look objectively, when you inspect the numbers. CVT enables maximum power from the engine when it is needed and maximum efficiency when power is not requested. The torque is transmitted constantly, without pauses (you'll get pauses even with DSG) between gears etc.

But driving is not always about pure numbers, but often feelings and emotions. There are cars that aren't fast, but seem to be. And car which are, but seem very sluggish...

CVT gives similar impression - it takes away the sound of the engine spinning up, that sensation is missing.

Another common complain I hear is that CVT is laud. A discussion might look like that:
- CVTs are lauder than regular transmission.
- Don't request maximum power of the engine (in other words don't boot to the metal). It will be quieter.
- But I want maximum acceleration!
- You cannot have both. You want maximum acceleration, you need maximum power. And maximum power WILL BE LAUD. /don't even get me started on torque vs power discussion/

To sum up - CVTs are not bad, but majority will not be comfortable with them. I must say the idea implemented in Nissan gearbox sounds very nice, I must take one for a spin to check it out. It seems you'll still get the sensation of acceleration with minimal penalty in actual performance, but in casual driving still receive the benefit of improved efficiency.

Nevertheless the idea of the transmission at all will be redundant with electric cars.

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

2013/2014 Seat Leon FR 150 DSG 7 is the front runner at the minute but that may simply be because I have no knowledge of other cars that offer a good automatic experience.

Any Skoda/VW/Seat with 2.0TDI comes with DSG6, not DSG7. Good box. Consider also a Ford (Focus, Mondeo etc.) 2.0 TDCI with Powershift.

Giuletta with TCT - I'd love one... But it goes down to how superstitious one is when comes to Italian desing

Nuw wrote: »

see where you're coming from with the Italian thing... however they did progress by quite some margin in that department for the past 2 gen (147, 159 etc..) and are now along the lines of VAG in terms of reliability

And come on, that Giulietta just look too good to be dismissed

I am not saying that's not the case - it is a superstition. I myself have driven a Fiat for three years and done 80kkm with it - never let me down.

Our last few family cars have all been Auto's

Currently is a Passat DSG and so far I really like the DSG,it has a direct feel to it like a manual not the disconnected feel of a traditional auto with a TC.

We have had 3 MB's with the 5 speed automatic 722.6 transmission, these are robust and generally trouble free. I dont think MB use this box any more only the replacement 7 speed

I did have a Multitronic Audi a couple of years ago, I liked the direct feel from the drive but it did feel weird not experiencing the car change gear

grogi wrote: »

To sum up - CVTs are not bad, but majority will not be comfortable with them. I must say the idea implemented in Nissan gearbox sounds very nice, I must take one for a spin to check it out. It seems you'll still get the sensation of acceleration with minimal penalty in actual performance, but in casual driving still receive the benefit of improved efficiency.
.

As far as I know, Audi MultiTronics have been like this for a while too. The one I drove was anyway, some CVT behaviour noticable but not totally unlike old torque converter boxes either.

GustavoFring wrote: »

If it's the newer dual clutch one (think it's called EDC) it's decent. Drove a Fluence with it and couldn't really fault it. Was just about the only positive bit of the car.

Do you recall how many gears it had?

GustavoFring wrote: »

It was a 6 speed I think. Really smooth, you'd swear it was a dsg. Not clunky like the automated manuals you get in a lot of French cars.

Yep, it must be a 6DCT250 then. Good box indeed.

landmarkjohn wrote: »

Work colleague 131 Golf auto box failed the other day, no idea what type, dealer looking for €6 k to fix. Lady driver, not massive mileage. That's me warned.

1.6 TDI, right?

Nuw wrote: »

It would indeed.

Friend of mine is in the market for a small auto petrol, considering mazda 2 and skoda fabia at the moment, but if the dsg 7 is a no-no, then it's all decided... even though the fabia has more power and would probably be easier on the motorway thanks to the turbo...

Fiesta 1.0T Ecoboost?

Nuw wrote: »

There is that, but she finds it a tad cramped at the rear... plus "everybody has one" :rolleyes:

Peugeot 208 Allure Automatic S&S? It has the EAT6 box.