Dublin City Council proposing to relax minimum apartment standards

Taboola · 28-07-2015 12:11pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0727/717556-proposal-to-relax-minimum-apartment-stanards/

Having seen some of the absolute dives on Daft.ie I don't think this is the right move at all.

A new studio apartment classification with a smaller minimum area of 45 square metres will be allowed in private rental schemes and in converted upper floors of city centre buildings.

That would be nearly 20% smaller than the existing minimum.

The proposals from council planners would also reduce the 'dual aspect' requirement - that apartments have windows on two different walls - from 85% of units in any scheme to 50%.

There had been a ban on single aspect units being north facing but this would be allowed if the unit overlooks a body of water or designated green space.

Single aspect east facing units would now be allowed.

The number of single units permitted in a scheme would be increased from 20% to 30% with a quarter of these allowed to be studios if the scheme has been purpose built for private rental.

It is also proposing to increase the maximum number of floors in a most standard residential schemes from 7 to 8 to make it the same as commercial developments.

But the existing minimum size of standard new apartments in Dublin will remain at 55 square metres for a one bedroom unit compared to the Government minimum of 45 square metres with similar higher space for two and three bedroom units.

There are also no major changes proposed for the strategy on tall buildings.

In the draft development plan 2016 to 2022 sent to councillors, Chief Executive Owen Keegan states that the provision of housing is the single most important objective of the plan.

Cllr Keegan says the plan would allow the council to fufill its commitment to provide 4,200 homes each year totalling 29,500 by 2022.

The Government's Housing Agency had publicly urged the council to bring in a provision for smaller rental units.

The Royal Society of Architects in Ireland and the Construction Industry Federation had also urged relaxation of apartment standards.

Architects had argued that the 85% dual aspect requirement in particular had a disproportionate effect on decreasing the amount of apartments that could be built per floor.

It is up to elected councillors to agree on a new development plan they will now be given until 14 August to submit motions followed by a special meeting on 16 September.

charlietheminxx · 28-07-2015 12:27pm

I viewed an apartment a few weeks ago that will haunt me forever, and it met the existing standards. I dread to think of the miserable little dark holes people will end up stuck living in

I understand there's a rental crisis, but dropping the standards of what's acceptable is NOT a way to resolve it.

the groutch · 28-07-2015 12:29pm

sounds like it's to better facilitate the conversion of office/commercial space into apartments for corporate rentals.

The_Conductor · 28-07-2015 12:43pm

I'm not in favour of allowing a reduction in apartment sizes- if anything- I'd argue that we urgently need larger apartments- as we have thousands of people trying to bring up children in grossly unsuitable accommodation, as is.

With respect of having to have windows with two aspects in apartments- I genuinely think a well insulated apartment with a good energy rating- is more critical, than getting hung up over dual aspects.

If the aim of this is to facilitate the conversion of pre-existing buildings into apartments- fine- but lets not reduce sizes and/or other specs- just to shoehorn apartments into existing buildings.

Improving public transport- and building where people have access to the facilities and amenities they need- should be to the fore- not trying to accommodate the owners of existing buildings. If this means- condemning existing buildings and replacing them with more appropriate modern constructions- so be it. However- you have to balance this with ensuring that any buildings of significance- especially Georgian Dublin- are preserved, as they should be.

TheDoc · 28-07-2015 1:05pm

Jesus, they can't even interpret their own data correctly.

The problem, and massive housing shortage is being caused by unsuitable accomodation and property for young families(young couples with young children). This is obviously in an effort to try meet the social housing backlog that is backed up beyond belief, but none of these are appropriate for those in emergency accommodation waiting on the government to pull the finger out.

So what are they going to do? Go back to the 1940's tenements that were a sesspool for disease and death and made for a poverty standard of living, or are they going to priorities single people, cause that is all these new regulations are good for,

Teyla Emmagan · 28-07-2015 1:09pm

If this is to allow people "live above the shop" then I am all for it.

Daith · 28-07-2015 1:24pm

TheDoc wrote: »

The problem, and massive housing shortage is being caused by unsuitable accomodation and property for young families(young couples with young children). This is obviously in an effort to try meet the social housing backlog that is backed up beyond belief, but none of these are appropriate for those in emergency accommodation waiting on the government to pull the finger out.

Ideally if we had a better crop of 1 bed apartments then you'd find many people who houseshare would instead rent a 1 bed. This would free up the 2/3 beds for actual families.

Ideally single people or couples without children renting 1 beds. The problem is that studios aren't suitable for couples (esp if they make them smaller!) and the price difference between a studio and house share (with bills etc) won't be that much in Dublin.

Mr. Incognito · 28-07-2015 2:59pm

http://www.newstalk.com/Why-are-Dublin-City-planners-looking-to-allow-smaller-darker-apartments

http://www.labour.ie/andrewmontague/

Heard him on the Radio this morning.

Andrew,

I am one of the many working thirty somethings saving for a home with my girlfriend.

We live in a North facing two bed room apartment in Rathmines.

I was appalled to hear you advocating for smaller apartments.

Dublin needs proper planning. It needs Social and Affordable housing lists to decline.

Dublin needs an end to flats which turn into squats and drive anti-social behaviour.

I was driven to email you as a result of your interview. I know that you are a hard working public represenatiative advocating for quality housing but a shoe box is a shoe box no matter how brightly you paint it.

The simpliest answers are not always the that simple.

More constructive ideas are

1. The release of a portion of NAMA developments for social and affordable housing.
2. A private public partnership where developers could finish unfinished developments in return for a portion given over to social and affordable housing.
3. Local Authorities not taking financial contributions in lieu of statutory affordable housing.

http://www.labour.ie/andrewmontague/

Until recently I would have voted Labour. When I hear a Labour councellor advocating on behalf of slum landlords I know that the party has seriously lost its way.

You really are abondoning your roots for short sighted soundbites. People are not stupid.

I shall not be supporting you or your party based on your representations.

Regards,

Emailed him from my personal email. I would encourage people to do the same if you want things to change.

Qualitymark · 28-07-2015 3:15pm

MouseTail wrote: »

But this model creates a welfare/poverty trap, far better imo to allow people to continue to live in Social Housing, even if they should find work and improve their circumstances, but remove the rent cap.

What rent cap? Friends who live in council housing and have work are paying quite high rents.

There are many, many nice houses empty and unused in Dublin - look at the lovely 1890s example here 53.333817, -6.237843 - that surely should either be brought compulsorily into use, or taxed so that the money could go into the councils' housing fund.

Gumbo · 28-07-2015 3:17pm

The Apartment size guideines have not changed, only to allow Studio type apartments is what i make of it.

gaius c · 28-07-2015 4:27pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Jesus, they can't even interpret their own data correctly.

The problem, and massive housing shortage is being caused by unsuitable accomodation and property for young families(young couples with young children). This is obviously in an effort to try meet the social housing backlog that is backed up beyond belief, but none of these are appropriate for those in emergency accommodation waiting on the government to pull the finger out.

So what are they going to do? Go back to the 1940's tenements that were a sesspool for disease and death and made for a poverty standard of living, or are they going to priorities single people, cause that is all these new regulations are good for,

It will help because right now, those people invariably houseshare in properties that would be more suitable for family use.

Daith · 28-07-2015 4:35pm

gaius c wrote: »

It will help because right now, those people invariably houseshare in properties that would be more suitable for family use.

Yup so these studios would have to represent better value than house sharing (and splitting bills). I'm not entirely convinced this will happen.

loyatemu · 28-07-2015 4:41pm

Daith wrote: »

Yup so these studios would have to represent better value than house sharing (and splitting bills). I'm not entirely convinced this will happen.

they will have to price them competitively, otherwise they'll sit empty. Given the choice a lot of people would rather have their own place, or share a 2-bed rather than share living space with 3 or more other people.

Daith · 28-07-2015 4:45pm

loyatemu wrote: »

they will have to price them competitively, otherwise they'll sit empty. Given the choice a lot of people would rather have their own place, or share a 2-bed rather than share living space with 3 or more other people.

And who doesn't want to have their fridge, shower and bed all in the one room :P

Be interesting to see exactly what happens.

gaius c · 28-07-2015 4:58pm

Daith wrote: »

Yup so these studios would have to represent better value than house sharing (and splitting bills). I'm not entirely convinced this will happen.

Exactly. Irish apartments are ridiculously expensive and prohibitive to them being used by the very people who should be living in them.

P.S. Also badly located. I marvel at that 8 storey block in Stepaside. What lunatic approved that!

The_Conductor · 28-07-2015 7:13pm

Qualitymark wrote: »

There are many, many nice houses empty and unused in Dublin

There aren't though- thats the problem.
There are always a small number of vacant (and indeed some derelict) properties in Dublin (or any other locale). The councils do buy properties like this (eventually)- typically after the 12 year window has passed- and normally only if there are difficulties contacting the owner and serving orders on them.

If you look- you will find the odd house here or there- some in good condition- vacant. However, its a very very small number- and in the overall context of the number of properties needed in the greater Dublin- wholly inconsequential.

At present- significant numbers of landlords are trying to get vacant possession of properties- in order to dispose of them. On average- where the property was previously tenanted- it is now taking just under 6 months to sell it. These also feature on your- nice but vacant list.

Current government policy- is to discourage small scale landlords from letting property- through draconian taxation policies. This is driving the shortage in the rental sector- as clearly as almost any other thing.

the_syco · 28-07-2015 9:59pm

Qualitymark wrote: »

There are many, many nice houses empty and unused in Dublin - look at the lovely 1890s example here 53.333817, -6.237843

I'm unsure what you're looking at?

The_Conductor wrote: »

Current government policy- is to discourage small scale landlords from letting property- through draconian taxation policies. This is driving the shortage in the rental sector- as clearly as almost any other thing.

The government really has lit both sides of the candle on this one; at one end, taxing them, but at the other end giving them so little rights, that if someone were to stop paying rent, it would take a sheriff to remove them, after many months of court.

Eric Cartman · 28-07-2015 10:09pm

dublin does not need more social housing, social housing tenants should not be put in accommodation in areas that most private buyers can only dream of affording.

Supercell · 28-07-2015 10:22pm

The problem here is that you can't build up in Ireland - 8 stories is a skyscraper in our planners minds. So we end up with urban sprawl and tiny apartments.
Alternatively we could have 80 story buildings near the city - say by the docks , with 100 sq m 2 beds etc and a thriving city center community for the same money.
Dublin is a low rise city, so say the planners that seem to wish we still had the horse and cart.

Qualitymark · 28-07-2015 11:03pm

the_syco wrote: »

I'm unsure what you're looking at?

It's behind ya. Turn the view around in a circle. Bungalow on the corner.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

dublin does not need more social housing, social housing tenants should not be put in accommodation in areas that most private buyers can only dream of affording.

More social housing will take the pressure off the market and let the prices settle.

As for Ireland and building upwards, our problem is that we know how to build tall - look at Ballymun - but we change the plans when the building is done, so the planned facilities - playgrounds, good shops, libraries, cinemas, clubs, cycle tracks - are never built, and we don't maintain the buildings; people who lived in Ballymun were constantly having to haul their groceries up many floors because the lifts weren't maintained, and they didn't have good, safe places for kids to play, or other facilities.

Idbatterim · 29-07-2015 12:33am

ok, pretty much everyone I know in Dublin, would like to live alone, but are prohibited from doing so, by the sky high rents. They wont do anything about the cost of building, if I could live on my own, in a 35 sq metre apartment, I would jump at the chance, if 35 sq m is the cost of me being able to live alone, I would jump at it. The people making these decisions sure as hell wont be living in them. Give people the choice... Yes there do need to be bigger family friendly apartments, but IMO, there also needs to be much smaller one bed apartments permitted...

I was looking at what is permitted in Leeds earlier, as I am over there often enough, there are new builds, with very compact one bedroom apartments, so the councils deem it ok over there, with their much better system and actual accountability, yet our clowns reckon they know best. In my opinion and from what I have seen, if the councils are only thinking about existing residents and being re-elected, government needs to step in and act, withdraw the power from them if possible.

They wont put in a decent transport system, allow for realistic densities, the docklands 5-6 storey rubbish is a criminal waste of prime space...

The problem here is that you can't build up in Ireland - 8 stories is a skyscraper in our planners minds. So we end up with urban sprawl and tiny apartments.
Alternatively we could have 80 story buildings near the city - say by the docks , with 100 sq m 2 beds etc and a thriving city center community for the same money.
Dublin is a low rise city, so say the planners that seem to wish we still had the horse and cart.

the PD's proposed this, which I think was an excellent idea, give it another few years, when we are back at crisis point and then land values are totally insane again...

https://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/from-2006-a-new-heart-for-dublin-progressive-democrat-proposals-for-a-new-high-rise-quarter-where-dublin-port-was-with-great-pics/

Daith · 29-07-2015 8:39am

Idbatterim wrote: »

if I could live on my own, in a 35 sq metre apartment, I would jump at the chance, if 35 sq m is the cost of me being able to live alone, I would jump at it. The people making these decisions sure as hell wont be living in them. Give people the choice... Yes there do need to be bigger family friendly apartments, but IMO, there also needs to be much smaller one bed apartments permitted...

A small 1 bed apt with separate bathroom, kitchen, bed? Sure. I don't think that's what we are getting though. It's a smaller studio. There's nothing wrong with studios but I don't think they'll have the same effect.

Cuddlesworth · 29-07-2015 9:35am

I think there is a serious demand for hotel room sized single person accommodation in the city center. Rooms that would normally fit twice into the current 1 bed standards. They can have a separate kitchenette and toilet on the inside, with a single large balcony window leading into a shared bedroom/sitting room.

Qualitymark · 29-07-2015 10:03am

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I think there is a serious demand for hotel room sized single person accommodation in the city center. Rooms that would normally fit twice into the current 1 bed standards. They can have a separate kitchenette and toilet on the inside, with a single large balcony window leading into a shared bedroom/sitting room.

That's fine if you're going to use it as a base for a temporary student life interrupted by regular trips home to the mammy with the washing. But to base our planning for family accommodation on poky little flats is not a good social model.

Eric Cartman · 29-07-2015 11:02am

I think if dublin city council sold all the land currently used for social housing in dublin 1,2,4,6,6w & 8 , they could afford to build new social housing much further out of the valuable city space and provide development land for the much needed private developments inside the city.

gaius c · 29-07-2015 11:06am

Qualitymark wrote: »

That's fine if you're going to use it as a base for a temporary student life interrupted by regular trips home to the mammy with the washing. But to base our planning for family accommodation on poky little flats is not a good social model.

What does your post have to do with Cuddlesworth's?
He's clearly talking about "single person accommodation in the city center".

Qualitymark · 29-07-2015 11:10am

Will it be legally protected as only for single people? No? Thought not.

kupus · 29-07-2015 11:22am

Looks like a money making scheme. Turn a single apartment into two. Then you have two properties to sell instead of one.

Figures just for example purposes....... One apartment 100,000 euro. Split it into two you can get 60-75 thousand and an easier sell.

Greenmachine · 29-07-2015 11:23am

Would be okay with smaller well designed apartments being built for the rental market, provided their were rental controls and your rent was dictated by the market with restriction on large rent increases.

Cuddlesworth · 29-07-2015 11:53am

Qualitymark wrote: »

That's fine if you're going to use it as a base for a temporary student life interrupted by regular trips home to the mammy with the washing. But to base our planning for family accommodation on poky little flats is not a good social model.

I've been renting for 10 years. Any person I have met would have moved into such a room if the rent was the equivalent of their current living situation, including me. And all of them lived in "family homes". This makes the actual families that want to rent be in competition with 2+ childless mid tier earners with no responsibilities.

Qualitymark · 29-07-2015 12:01pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

There aren't though- thats the problem.
There are always a small number of vacant (and indeed some derelict) properties in Dublin (or any other locale). The councils do buy properties like this (eventually)- typically after the 12 year window has passed- and normally only if there are difficulties contacting the owner and serving orders on them.

I walk my dog around my local area in a nice, not particularly wealthy suburb. I see many empty houses with grass knee-height and ragged lace curtains or blocked-up windows. In theory, there's a tax of 3% of the value per year chargeable on these. In practice, only something like 30 sites in Dublin are being charged this - there's a list online.

I was canvassing during the recent referendum and similarly saw many houses and apartments empty and unused - the houses often with padlocked gates, the apartments boarded up.

This is, of course, only one person's experience and observation.

Dublin City Council proposing to relax minimum apartment standards

Comments