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Respect for the religious + religion - where does it start/stop?

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12467…31

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    #92
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    MrPudding wrote: »
    But what if the act they are carrying out are approved of by the leaders of their religion? Who are you to decide whether they are actually following the tenants of their religion? That is just your incorrect interpretation.

    MrP
    If they reject the basic tenets...


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    #93
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,719 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    katydid wrote: »
    If they reject the basic tenets...
    that only means they're at odds with their particular religion. It doesn't mean they're not religious.

    For example, say a religion prohibited giving charity to people. but a member couldn't square that with their understanding of their faith, so they start helping out with charity work. They believe they are doing Gods work.

    You're saying this believer is no longer religious?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #94
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    SW wrote: »
    that only means they're at odds with their particular religion. It doesn't mean they're not religious.

    For example, say a religion prohibited giving charity to people. but a member couldn't square that with their understanding of their faith, so they start helping out with charity work. They believe they are doing Gods work.

    You're saying this believer is no longer religious?

    You can be religious without belonging to a religion. And you can belong to a religion without being religious.


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    #95
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,719 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    katydid wrote: »
    You can be religious without belonging to a religion. And you can belong to a religion without being religious.
    that's not what I asked you. care to answer the question? Is the person giving charity still religious?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #96
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    katydid wrote: »
    If they reject the basic tenets...
    But they don't... That is the point.

    MrP


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    #97
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    MrPudding wrote: »
    But they don't... That is the point.

    MrP

    Yes, they do. Christians who don't love and respect one another are going against the basic tenet of Christianity.


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    #98
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    katydid wrote: »
    If they reject the basic tenets...

    What if they follow the basic tenets...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir
    Crucified: "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment." [5: 33]

    http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    I can produce more quotes and links.


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    #99
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    obplayer wrote: »
    What if they follow the basic tenets...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir



    http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm



    I can produce more quotes and links.

    Not tenets.


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    #100
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    katydid wrote: »
    Not tenets.

    They are instructions in their "holy" books, how do you define tenets in the context of religion then?


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    #101
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Katydid, it seems your definition of "religious" behaviour is what nice people with a religion do. Surely nasty people acting nastily while following their religion is also "religious"?


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    #102
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    katydid wrote: »
    Christians who don't love and respect one another are going against the basic tenet of Christianity.
    What about all the other "basic tenets" which christians ignore?


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    #103
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    robindch wrote: »
    What about all the other "basic tenets" which christians ignore?

    If they are Christians, they don't.


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    #104
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    SW wrote: »
    that's not what I asked you. care to answer the question? Is the person giving charity still religious?

    I did answer. Think about it.


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    #105
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    MrPudding wrote: »
    But they don't... That is the point.

    MrP

    They do. Otherwise they wouldn't do what they do.


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    #106
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    katydid wrote: »
    If they are Christians, they don't.

    You haven't attempted to answer my question...
    They are instructions in their "holy" books, how do you define tenets in the context of religion then?

    Which instructions from their "holy" books should they obey?

    Or as swampgas has asked, is it only the "nice" instructions which count? And if so who then defines "nice"?


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    #107
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,719 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    katydid wrote: »
    I did answer. Think about it.
    I take it to mean the charity worker is still religious even though they are contravening a rule of their religion. Do you agree?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #108
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    katydid wrote: »
    If they are Christians, they don't.
    You mean that the people who take the rules about avoiding crustaceans, avoiding wearing clothes of two different cloths, avoiding tattoes, menstruating women not being allowed to approach an altar etc, etc, etc - they're the only real christians?


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    #109
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    robindch wrote: »
    You mean that the people who take the rules about avoiding crustaceans, avoiding wearing clothes of two different cloths, avoiding tattoes, menstruating women not being allowed to approach an altar etc, etc, etc - they're the only real christians?

    No, the ones that follow the guidelines set down by Jesus...


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    #110
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    SW wrote: »
    I take it to mean the charity worker is still religious even though they are contravening a rule of their religion. Do you agree?

    That's what I said.


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    #111
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    obplayer wrote: »
    You haven't attempted to answer my question...



    Which instructions from their "holy" books should they obey?

    Or as swampgas has asked, is it only the "nice" instructions which count? And if so who then defines "nice"?

    Not "instructions from their holy books". The defined tenets of the religion...


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    #112
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    katydid wrote: »
    No, the ones that follow the guidelines set down by Jesus...
    Oh, so the old testament - the bit with the ten commandments - can be ignored now?


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    #113
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,719 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    katydid wrote: »
    That's what I said.
    so then people who disobey a tenet/rule of their religion are still religious. This is the opposite of what you have been saying up to now.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #114
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    katydid wrote: »
    No, the ones that follow the guidelines set down by Jesus...

    Like these...
    Matthew 5:17
    17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
    18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.…


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    #115
    obplayer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,190 ✭✭✭obplayer


    katydid wrote: »
    Not "instructions from their holy books". The defined tenets of the religion...

    Which you have still not defined. You can't use "defined" until you provide a definition. I ask again, how then do you define the tenets of a religion? Or at least of Christianity as a starting point.


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    #116
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    katydid wrote: »
    Yes, they do. Christians who don't love and respect one another are going against the basic tenet of Christianity.

    And catholics that use condoms, are they no longer Catholic as they are going against the popes word?

    What about gay Catholics who have sex, are they not Catholics to?

    Also, a Catholic who's had an abortion, are they no longer Catholic?

    Oh and finally, a Catholic who has murdered somebody, are they no longer Catholic? Keep in mind they can ask for forgiveness.... Just like the pedophile priests asked for forgiveness and they actually were forgiven... I guess that makes them Catholics... Inline with the teachings of forgiveness in the Catholic Church.


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    #117
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    katydid wrote: »
    Not "instructions from their holy books". The defined tenets of the religion...

    The Bible is the word of God though, it's seriously upsetting to millions of Christians for you to claim the Bible is less important then the 10 commandments.... Which also form part of the Bible.

    How's that picking and choosing what suits your agenda in a religion working out for you?


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    #118
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    robindch wrote: »
    Oh, so the old testament - the bit with the ten commandments - can be ignored now?

    Christians Guide to the bible:
    Does it suit your argument? It is the literal word of god
    Does it go against your argument or make you look hypocritical? Aint nobody got time for that.


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    #119
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Cabaal wrote: »
    And catholics that use condoms, are they no longer Catholic as they are going against the popes word?

    What about gay Catholics who have sex, are they not Catholics to?

    Also, a Catholic who's had an abortion, are they no longer Catholic?

    Oh and finally, a Catholic who has murdered somebody, are they no longer Catholic? Keep in mind they can ask for forgiveness.... Just like the pedophile priests asked for forgiveness and they actually were forgiven... I guess that makes them Catholics... Inline with the teachings of forgiveness in the Catholic Church.

    The pope's definition of ROMAN Catholicism is not what many would consider Catholicism.


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    #120
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    robindch wrote: »
    Oh, so the old testament - the bit with the ten commandments - can be ignored now?
    It has to be contextualised.


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    #121
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^^^ Jerry Coyne made that point that christians start off by saying that everything in the bible is true. And as bits get disproved, they turn into metaphors.

    That's in one of the best takedowns of religion I've seen, Coyne's annihilation of theologian John Haught - it was so total, I almost felt sorry for Haught who seems to be a genuinely nice guy who's spent his life trying to reconcile the irreconcilable. Haught, btw, tried to stop the release of the debate, but a minor sh*tstorm ensued and it was released a few days later.

    Coyne starts speaking at around 26 minutes:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlQ1TunESn8


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