Series Link Down ?

MACHEAD · 10-07-2014 12:41pm #1

Went to setup a series link record on RTÉ2 last night with my Humax HDR T2, and found the 'Record Entire Series' option missing. Anyone else having issues with series link on Saorview at the moment ?

The Cush · 10-07-2014 9:21pm

Just checked here on a Panasonic 635, no series link available when attempting to setup a new timer. Existing scheduled series linked timers working OK.

In the old days · 12-07-2014 9:39pm

Very annoying. Nobody in authority seems to care a hoot about series link on saorview.

The Cush · 12-07-2014 9:59pm

Me thinks something else is going on here, series link not working on my non-Saorview Panasonic but checked it on my old unreliable Saorview-approved Walker PVR which I relocated to a bedroom TV months ago and series-link is working.

Have Saorview done something to cripple series link to non-approved receivers? The sole Saorview approved PVR has been getting a bashing (and deservedly so) here on the forums.

If so, the options are do you buy a piece of crap Saorview-approved Walker PVR with working series link and unreliable recording or a non-approved PVR without series-link but with reliable recording? Reliable recording wins for me.

In the old days · 12-07-2014 10:18pm

My panny PVR is now in the same boat. Surely it would be better for the saorview system to technically overlap with the UK D Book standards where possible. Saorview is already a niche product and to make it unnessarily messy or exclusive as regards compatibility with the UK surely is shooting themselves in the foot especially for viewers in the overlap areas e.g. Border, NI, East Coast etc.

The Cush · 12-07-2014 10:34pm

In the old days wrote: »

Surely it would be better for the saorview system to technically overlap with the UK D Book standards where possible. Saorview is already a niche product and to make it unnessarily messy or exclusive as regards compatibility with the UK surely is shooting themselves in the foot especially for viewers in the overlap areas e.g. Border, NI, East Coast etc.

If it is the case that they have deliberately done this it would appear they have little concern for the for the Saorview viewer out there and are only concerned about the damage to Walker's bottom line and their unreliable PVR.

RED L4 0TH · 13-07-2014 12:30am

MACHEAD wrote: »

Went to setup a series link record on RTÉ2 last night with my Humax HDR T2, and found the 'Record Entire Series' option missing. Anyone else having issues with series link on Saorview at the moment ?

Same here. Series link not available for anything on Saorview. Checked ahead in the guide for stuff like Coronation Street and no series link is available. Series link option still there for the Freeview channels. Absolutely pathetic if it's a deliberate move by Saorview as suggested by The Cush.

Souriau · 13-07-2014 12:40am

Just confirm that my Humax HDR Fox T2 also lost Serial Link via Saorview.

The Cush · 14-07-2014 10:57pm

An update on this, when I posted last time I mentioned that existing series link were working OK but I see from tomorrow they are gone also.

Still couldn't recommend the Walker PVR.

Gerry Wicklow · 15-07-2014 9:22am

Likewise my Saorview approved Samsung tv is not updating series links anymore.

Souriau · 15-07-2014 11:05am

Saorview should had gone with UK D book system and then the STB would be a lot cheaper as like in UK. But they chose to have half of UK and half of EU system making their version of STB more expensive and not fully workable with some of the STB, like time, subtitles, serial recording and so on.

Sam Russell · 15-07-2014 11:30am

Souriau wrote: »

Saorview should had gone with UK D book system and then the STB would be a lot cheaper as like in UK. But they chose to have half of UK and half of EU system making their version of STB more expensive and not fully workable with some of the STB, like time, subtitles, serial recording and so on.

That was not really an option as the D book is secret, and did not comply with the system chosen here. The Nordig system was chosen because Boxer won the beauty contest and that was their home system. It was modified to include MHEG5 which the British use, but that has subsequently been included in the Nordig spec.

The coding used does appear to be capricious in its apparently deliberate attempts to make UK equipment not function here. Remember the Panny sets that could not scan for stations and the fact the summer time does not work on UK sets. So series link suddenly falling over is no surprise.

The Cush · 15-07-2014 3:19pm

Souriau wrote: »

Saorview should had gone with UK D book system and then the STB would be a lot cheaper as like in UK. But they chose to have half of UK and half of EU system making their version of STB more expensive and not fully workable with some of the STB, like time, subtitles, serial recording and so on.

In hindsight the UK standard with MPEG-4 (like New Zealand) would have been the better sytem for here considering we chose a receiver standard from a consortium that withdrew from the process less than 12 months after they were awarded the contract.

Regarding series link, it has worked without problem on non-approved PVRs since it was launched and now Saorview have chosen, it appears, to protect Walker's market by imposing an inferior product on DTT consumers here.

mrdtv2010 · 15-07-2014 3:34pm

The Cush wrote: »

In hindsight the UK standard with MPEG-4 (like New Zealand) would have been the better sytem for here considering we chose a receiver standard from a consortium that withdrew from the process less than 12 months after they were awarded the contract.

Regarding series link, it has worked without problem on non-approved PVRs since it was launched and now Saorview have chosen, it appears, to protect Walker's market by imposing an inferior product on DTT consumers here.

Why are you surprised? There has been a long history of protectionism in Irish TV standards which has always resulted in a) higher industry input costs b) higher consumer costs c) lower capability and d) net benefit to distributors outside the Republic of Ireland. Don't they *EVER* learn? This will be a complete pain in the a** for terrestrial viewers in overlap areas. The beneficiaries will be UPC and Sky with seamless solutions which actually work.

Incidentally Walker is a brand which has absolutely no traction in the UK: hardly surprising given its poor pedigree.

khumbu · 15-07-2014 4:24pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was modified to include MHEG5 which the British use, but that has subsequently been included in the Nordig spec.

Is there any Nordig approved PVRs available in Scandinavia?

fat-tony · 16-07-2014 2:30pm

What seems to have happened is that RTENL/2RN/Red Bee have changed the coding identifying the CRID (the programme and series link info) to conform to the standard as defined in the Nordig specification for all Saorview receivers and PVRs.

The value identifying CRID was 0x31 and 0x32 (ie ASCII character '1' and '2'). This seems to work with Freeview-type PVRs / receivers. '1' to identify the link containing programme ID, '2' to identify the link containing series ID.

The values now for programme and series link are 0x01 and 0x02. These are the actual values contained in the Nordig specification and conform to ETSI standards for DVB.

It doesn't really help anyone with a Freeview PVR, but it seems to be just a tightening of the specifications. I would imagine the reason the UK values are different is that they are part of the proprietary D book spec. Why those values were coded into the actual EPG data on Saorview up to recently I would not even begin to speculate on :rolleyes:

Here is an extract from the Nordig spec:

12.4.6.1 CRID type 0x01 &#8211; programme CRID (NorDig PVR only)
Programme CRIDs are used to identify two or more EIT events as being the same programme. This
prevents duplicate programmes being recorded from within the same series and also allows alternative
programme instances to be recorded (or offered for recording) if a booking clash occurs.
It is not necessary for all EIT events to have a programme CRID. An event may only include a maximum
of one programme CRID. In the current context they are only useful where alternative instances or split
programmes are being identified.
12.4.6.2 CRID type 0x02 &#8211; series CRID (NorDig PVR only)
Where a series CRID is conveyed in a CID according to the signalling outlined, it is to be used to only
refer to an editorial concept of a series.
An event may be associated with more than one series, i.e. an event may include several series CRIDs.
Where an event is associated with more than one series, an invitation to record &#8216;programmes in the same
series as this event&#8217; would book to record all events in all series associated with the selected event (see
more section 13.3.3).
12.4.6.3 CRID type 0x03 &#8211; recommendation CRID (NorDig PVR only)
This identifies a looser linkage to another programme or series. A recommendation may point to a single
event (programme CRID) or a series (series CRID).
A CRID in the CID shall be marked as crid type 0x03 (recommendation) and be a programme or series
CRID.
It is not required that the recommendation CRID be present in the current scope of EIT. If the event
referenced by the recommendation CRID is not present in the current scope of EIT, the recommendation
may be presented to the user when it appears in EIT. If a recommendation CRID does not appear in EIT
within 91 days of the referencing event it shall be discarded.

Souriau · 16-07-2014 7:25pm

Are there any PVR that the serial link recording working well today?

Sam Russell · 16-07-2014 7:42pm

fat-tony wrote: »

What seems to have happened is that RTENL/2RN/Red Bee have changed the coding identifying the CRID (the programme and series link info) to conform to the standard as defined in the Nordig specification for all Saorview receivers and PVRs.

The value identifying CRID was 0x31 and 0x32 (ie ASCII character '1' and '2'). This seems to work with Freeview-type PVRs / receivers. '1' to identify the link containing programme ID, '2' to identify the link containing series ID.

The values now for programme and series link are 0x01 and 0x02. These are the actual values contained in the Nordig specification and conform to ETSI standards for DVB.

It doesn't really help anyone with a Freeview PVR, but it seems to be just a tightening of the specifications. I would imagine the reason the UK values are different is that they are part of the proprietary D book spec. Why those values were coded into the actual EPG data on Saorview up to recently I would not even begin to speculate on :rolleyes:

@ fat-tony
Is it up to the PVR firmware, or could Saorview broadcast both systems within the epg?

Could the same be done with summer-time so Freeview TVs could keep their clock correct in the summer?

fat-tony · 16-07-2014 11:57pm

As regards the time issue, I have already posted the simple solution that Saorview could transmit two time codes (TOT) in the data stream as is done on SKY - one with IRL country code and another with GBR country code. They would be identical and would allow Freeview boxes to set the clock properly when tuned to Saorview.

As regards the Series Link info, I would imagine that the PVR firmware would have to be changed to recognise 0x01 / 0x02 instead of 0x31 / 0x02. But then, a firmware change in the PVR could accomodate the IRL country code (but that would make it a non-Freeview receiver).

I've switched off my Humax Freesat box a couple of weeks ago and I am now running a linux receiver with terrestrial and satellite tuners in a combo Saorview/Freesat setup. It's fine in our household, but it's not plug in and forget. Definitely a set-up for the technically-minded. However, using a Harmony remote with the same button configuration as the old Humax set-up SWMBO is managing fine. Doesn't have true series link but the auto timer facility is sophisticated enough to record the soaps and anything else recurring that I've set for recording - nothing missed yet!

- just a thought. If you are using a Freeview PVR are there any country options in it outside of GB? For example - France, Germany? This might restore the series linking if the CRID stndard is correctly implemented for outside of GB. Might also get the clock in sync for summertime.

Souriau · 17-07-2014 12:25am

It is a mess up big time.
It is not hard to put in both country code for time correction like on Freeview so why can not the same be done on Saorview?
I am sure the same can be done for subtitles to allow Freeview TV to received Saorview subtitles and now then the serial link.
Why would the people in charge of setting up this would annoy viewers that their TV or PVR does not fully work as it should?
How many approved certified Saorview PVR on the market today?

Souriau · 17-07-2014 12:28am

Is the Walker PVR working properly with the serial link recording since the changes made?

The Cush · 17-07-2014 12:31am

fat-tony wrote: »

- just a thought. If you are using a Freeview PVR are there any country options in it outside of GB? For example - France, Germany? This might restore the series linking if the CRID stndard is correctly implemented for outside of GB.

No country option available for the Panasonic PVR.

Souriau wrote: »

How many approved certified Saorview PVR on the market today?

Just 1, a piece of ****e from Walker

The Cush · 17-07-2014 12:35am

Souriau wrote: »

Is the Walker PVR working properly with the serial link recording since the changes made?

Series link works but recording is still unreliable.

STB · 17-07-2014 1:09am

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Incidentally Walker is a brand which has absolutely no traction in the UK: hardly surprising given its poor pedigree.

Thats because its based in Ireland and their products are largely aimed at the Irish market, hence certification for Saorview.

They are a rebadged product from Turkished based OEM Vestel. Akin to Bush, Toshiba, Sharp, JVC, Hitachi, Metronic, Technika which are old defuct purchased names (mainly by large retailers) using rebadged board designs from Vestel for the UK.

The coders for the OEM boxes can be reached at futura website for rasing bugs or at least asking for workarounds.

@fat-tony. The Freeview/HD boxes do indeed expect identifiers that adhere to crid type="0x31" uri="crid: etc for programe and crid type="0x32" uri="crid: etc for series link. Did you do a TS analysis to see the Hvalues for the newly used Saorview CRID ?

Souriau · 17-07-2014 1:47am

The Cush wrote: »

No country option available for the Panasonic PVR.

Just 1, a piece of ****e from Walker

Just 1... that's crazy to change the setting now when other PVR works well.
now all other PVR can't see the CRID but only Walker...
I give up...

Sam Russell · 17-07-2014 9:13am

I do not understand how they can change the coding that effects the Freeview PVRs without affecting the Saorview ones. How is this possible?

The Cush · 17-07-2014 10:08am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not understand how they can change the coding that effects the Freeview PVRs without affecting the Saorview ones. How is this possible?

Presumably because the Saorview PVRs can identify the correct CRIDs for both services but the Freeview spec PVRs can't identify the new Saorview CRID values.

So much for the MoU between the 2 governments and the interoperability of standards.

Sam Russell · 17-07-2014 10:26am

Can not the Humax Freeview PVRs have their country changed by a secret menu? Are these units working correctly when the country=Ireland?

I have a Samsung TV that is Saorview Approved and can record to an external HDD but it does not offer series link. I wonder why?

Gerry Wicklow · 17-07-2014 10:54am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Can not the Humax Freeview PVRs have their country changed by a secret menu? Are these units working correctly when the country=Ireland?

I have a Samsung TV that is Saorview Approved and can record to an external HDD but it does not offer series link. I wonder why?

I found it used to work when set to UK but not IRL, but then you had to manually correct for summer time. Now it doesn't work for either.

fat-tony · 17-07-2014 11:51am

STB wrote: »

...

@fat-tony. The Freeview/HD boxes do indeed expect identifiers that adhere to crid type="0x31" uri="crid: etc for programe and crid type="0x32" uri="crid: etc for series link. Did you do a TS analysis to see the Hvalues for the newly used Saorview CRID ?

erm - post #16 @STB - keep up

- values now 0x01 and 0x02

fat-tony · 17-07-2014 11:53am

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not understand how they can change the coding that effects the Freeview PVRs without affecting the Saorview ones. How is this possible?

I'd say the Walker/Vestel developers saw the old CRID value at the time and coded for it as well as the specified value.

Series Link Down ?

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