Would a toll affect your decision to do a German Car Holiday?

keithclancy · 08-07-2014 11:25am #1

So the Germans have announced they plan to impose a toll on non German plated cars.

http://www.thelocal.de/20140707/tolls-to-come-to-all-german-roads

German car owners would receive the vignette in the mail and its price would be deducted from their vehicle taxes, meaning they should not be paying more than before.

But foreign drivers would have to buy a vignette from 2016, costing a maximum of €100 a year or €20 for two months. A short-term option of €10 for ten days is also expected to be introduced. They could be bought online or in petrol stations.

Personally I think it would effectively kill off all the cross border shopping trips.

For myself I would be forced to pay it as I drive a car on a Dutch registration and due to vehicle registration tax (BPM) do not have the option of driving a German plated car.

Also the Public transport option is 3 hours vs 1 hr 15 minutes in the car, so really I'd almost be spending as much time on Public Transport than in work

It would bring my annual motor tax from 1464 per year to 1564, when a German coworker is paying 326 / year for the same Car :rolleyes:

On top of that if I rent or borrow a mates car, I'd have to pay again just to go into Germany, or if I buy a new car I'd have to pay twice for the year.

Anyways, all that aside, would a Toll influence your decision on doing a driving trip in Germany ?

djimi · 08-07-2014 11:31am

Assuming you are talking about a holiday (which is going to be the case for the majority on here) then €20 is hardly the end of the world and I doubt it would put many/any off driving in Germany. Its different in your situation obviously.

MuppetCheck · 08-07-2014 11:33am

Not particularly, but if other countries also brought it in (and you can be sure they will if this works) then it would add a significant cost to a trip like that from Ireland.

death1234567 · 08-07-2014 11:37am

Makes sense to get tax from cars that are using German Roads but are not paying the Germans any tax.

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 08-07-2014 11:42am

Could you not just rent a car in Germany and thus avoid this toll anyway?

Sobanek · 08-07-2014 11:43am

And what if you don't pay?

Isn't that against the movement of free goods rule?

keithclancy · 08-07-2014 11:44am

djimi wrote: »

Assuming you are talking about a holiday (which is going to be the case for the majority on here) then €20 is hardly the end of the world and I doubt it would put many/any off driving in Germany. Its different in your situation obviously.

Well for the UK Colleagues here in work they recon they would just be put off because of 2 additional stickers alone, one for the Environmental Zone sticker and another for the Vignette.

Or doing a trip in an Irish Campervan/Car for example, going across France and into Germany down to Austria and Switzerland you would end up with a total of 7 Items stuck to your window

Tax
Insurance
NCT
Environmental Sticker if you want to stop in a City (Needs to be pre-purchased from TUV)
German Vignette for all roads, even if you do not use the Autobahn
Swiss Vignette
Austrian Vignette

And that would be after paying all the French Tolls already just to get to Germany from Cherbourg assuming your doing the Rosslare route

djimi · 08-07-2014 11:44am

Sobanek wrote: »

And what if you don't pay?

Isn't that against the movement of free goods rule?

Probably no more so than the congestion charge in London is. Plus youre not restricting anyone from moving; youre just charging them for the privilage!

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 08-07-2014 11:44am

Sobanek wrote: »

And what if you don't pay?

Isn't that against the movement of free goods rule?

Not to mention, discriminatory against non germans!

keithclancy · 08-07-2014 11:45am

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Could you not just rent a car in Germany and thus avoid this toll anyway?

No, Dutch residents are prohibited from Driving owned, borrowed, leased or rented foreign cars due to Vehicle Registration Tax.

There is a temporary exemption for 1 license plate per year, but this is not really suitable for Rentals.

Sobanek · 08-07-2014 11:46am

djimi wrote: »

Probably no more so than the congestion charge in London is. Plus youre not restricting anyone from moving; youre just charging them for the privilage!

Congestion charge applies to all UK and Non-UK registered cars. This talks about charging cars that aren't on German plates

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 08-07-2014 11:47am

djimi wrote: »

Probably no more so than the congestion charge in London is. Plus youre not restricting anyone from moving; youre just charging them for the privilage!

But that charges everyone, this is just for non germans!

djimi · 08-07-2014 11:47am

keithclancy wrote: »

Well for the UK Colleagues here in work they recon they would just be put off because of 2 additional stickers alone, one for the Environmental Zone sticker and another for the Vignette.

Or doing a trip in an Irish Campervan/Car for example, going across France and into Germany down to Austria and Switzerland you would end up with a total of 7 Items stuck to your window

Tax
Insurance
NCT
Environmental Sticker if you want to stop in a City (Needs to be pre-purchased from TUV)
German Vignette for all roads, even if you do not use the Autobahn
Swiss Vignette
Austrian Vignette

And that would be after paying all the French Tolls already just to get to Germany from Cherbourg assuming your doing the Rosslare route

Its an annoyance for sure, but again its not the end of the world, and the stickers alone certainly would not put me off making a trip that I otherwise want to take. Even the cost isnt massively prohibitive; even if you ended up going through five countries that have this system then its €100 to the cost of your journey.

The French road tolls would put me off more; the last time I was in France I remember them being utterly ridiculous.

djimi · 08-07-2014 11:48am

Sobanek wrote: »

Congestion charge applies to all UK and Non-UK registered cars. This talks about charging cars that aren't on German plates

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

But that charges everyone, this is just for non germans!

I know its not directly comparible but I was just trying to think of a similar enough example in terms of having to pay to enter an area and how that could be considered to be restriction of movement. I dont think either are tbh.

djimi · 08-07-2014 11:49am

keithclancy wrote: »

No, Dutch residents are prohibited from Driving owned, borrowed, leased or rented foreign cars due to Vehicle Registration Tax.

There is a temporary exemption for 1 license plate per year, but this is not really suitable for Rentals.

So under Dutch (or German?) law you are not legally allowed to rent a car when abroad?

keithclancy · 08-07-2014 11:52am

djimi wrote: »

So under Dutch (or German?) law you are not legally allowed to rent a car when abroad?

I can rent a car abroad, e.g. I could drive 45 minutes away to Belgium, rent a car and drive around Belgium, but as soon as I drive back into the Netherlands Customs can seize the car from you for non payment of VRT (BPM)

But if I wanted to go home I'd have to drive to the closest station at the Belgian border and get the bus home

Same rule as Ireland really, you cannot rent a car in the North and drive it in the Republic.

listermint · 08-07-2014 11:53am

Do they tax fuel there for this purpose ?

djimi · 08-07-2014 11:55am

keithclancy wrote: »

I can rent a car abroad, e.g. I could drive 45 minutes away to Belgium, rent a car and drive around Belgium, but as soon as I drive back into the Netherlands Customs can seize the car from you for non payment of VRT (BPM)

But if I wanted to go home I'd have to drive to the closest station at the Belgian border and get the bus home

Same rule as Ireland really, you cannot rent a car in the North and drive it in the Republic.

Ah okay, sorry I thought you meant that you couldnt rent a car in Germany full stop!

munchkin_utd · 08-07-2014 2:23pm

ach, it'll be the same as border areas of Germany and Austria is currently.
You'd possibly make at least 10 trips across the border a year so you just buy the yearly sticker for 100 odd euro and you have it.
And just like the Germany->Austria Border- if youre saving €5+ per fill of petrol, then your sticker will pay for itsself over the year soon enough.

I think the plans are bonkers they way they are planning it though.
It should have been a proper motorway sticker that everyone pays for, maybe reducing the car tax slightly, but not bending over backwards to ensure that the german motorists pay the same at the end of it to the cent as they do now.

Do they tax fuel there for this purpose ?

yup, theres 10s of billions a year taken in tax and ECO-tax and its not for the roads or environment that the cash ends up used for!

dgt · 08-07-2014 2:33pm

Nah not really. Yes I hope to drive through Germany someday

listermint · 08-07-2014 2:34pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

ach, it'll be the same as border areas of Germany and Austria is currently.
You'd possibly make at least 10 trips across the border a year so you just buy the yearly sticker for 100 odd euro and you have it.
And just like the Germany->Austria Border- if youre saving €5+ per fill of petrol, then your sticker will pay for itsself over the year soon enough.

I think the plans are bonkers they way they are planning it though.
It should have been a proper motorway sticker that everyone pays for, maybe reducing the car tax slightly, but not bending over backwards to ensure that the german motorists pay the same at the end of it to the cent as they do now.

yup, theres 10s of billions a year taken in tax and ECO-tax and its not for the roads or environment that the cash ends up used for!

So i dont understand, if they are taking this cash from 'foreigners' via fuel tax.

What is the point ?

Is the whole thing for 'optics' because that is what it looks like.

jimgoose · 08-07-2014 2:39pm

keithclancy wrote: »

I can rent a car abroad, e.g. I could drive 45 minutes away to Belgium, rent a car and drive around Belgium, but as soon as I drive back into the Netherlands Customs can seize the car from you for non payment of VRT (BPM)

But if I wanted to go home I'd have to drive to the closest station at the Belgian border and get the bus home

That's a proper ridiculous pain-in-the-arse, isn't it?? :eek:

keithclancy wrote: »

Same rule as Ireland really, you cannot rent a car in the North and drive it in the Republic.

According to Budget at least you can, for a small additional fee:

http://www.budget.ie/terms/northern-ireland/#Cross Border Driving

bmm · 08-07-2014 2:50pm

So much for all EU citizens being treated equally!

We buy german cars so surely a percentage of this goes to build german roads!

It will cost the germans more to collect the charges than the charges themselves.! Ridiculous!

visual · 08-07-2014 3:42pm

bmm wrote: »

So much for all EU citizens being treated equally!

We buy german cars so surely a percentage of this goes to build german roads!

It will cost the germans more to collect the charges than the charges themselves.! Ridiculous!

The EU is no longer fit for purpose with only the biggest members benefiting at the expense of smaller countries and no one gives two hoots about the citizens.

I avoid toll roads where possible.

BMJD · 08-07-2014 3:51pm

rabble rabble already paid the german bondholders rabble rabble worse than hitler

munchkin_utd · 08-07-2014 4:16pm

visual wrote: »

The EU is no longer fit for purpose with only the biggest members benefiting at the expense of smaller countries and no one gives two hoots about the citizens.

I avoid toll roads where possible.

em, this here is an instance of all the little countries from Czech to Austria to Switzerland and beyond tolling their roads for the past years and the largest country in Europe deciding to follow the lead of the little countries.

and its TOTALLY nothing to do with the Eu (rabble rabble rabble.........)

No Pants · 09-07-2014 1:33pm

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Not to mention, discriminatory against non germans!

My reading of the OP's post is that everyone pays, Germans and non-Germans alike. However, the Germans then get a rebate on their version of motor tax. Not sure if that's discriminatory.

alias no.9 · 09-07-2014 1:51pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

em, this here is an instance of all the little countries from Czech to Austria to Switzerland and beyond tolling their roads for the past years and the largest country in Europe deciding to follow the lead of the little countries.

and its TOTALLY nothing to do with the Eu (rabble rabble rabble.........)

There are always untolled alternatives

toyotaavensis · 09-07-2014 2:07pm

I recently drove to budapest and back and paid for vignettes in Austria and Hungary.
An extra tenner in Germany wouldnt have caused me to drive around Germany or avoud the trip. I think we should have it here. If locals are paying their tax for the upkeey of roads those using it while passing though should do so also.

visual · 09-07-2014 2:31pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

em, this here is an instance of all the little countries from Czech to Austria to Switzerland and beyond tolling their roads for the past years and the largest country in Europe deciding to follow the lead of the little countries.

and its TOTALLY nothing to do with the Eu (rabble rabble rabble.........)

the princable of EU was to promote harmony fair trading and unrestricted movement of goods and people within EU
tolling everyone is one thing, tolling only visitors to germany is building walls

And it has everything to do with EU

NCAP emissions common standards
drivers licence etc etc

what rock you be stuck under the last few decades.

toyotaavensis · 09-07-2014 2:36pm

Careful now
talking about the germans building walls could cause upset.

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