Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

fortis · 16-06-2014 04:35PM #1

Mod Note:

Since it was one of the lengthier threads on this topic, we're repurposing this thread as a megathread for discussion of Juniors and Vets in A3. The megathread's been created to stop race threads from being cluttered up with off-topic airings of the issue.

This thread was originally entitled "SuperVets! Points and Promotion"

Relaise this is a long standing debate but I think events this year have pointed out that the current system is dysfunctional

Namely:

(b) Veteran riders in their 46th
to 49th
year and irrespective of their category may apply, on their first
licence application for the relevant licence year, for an A2 or A3 licence with zero points brought
forward. Such riders are subject to automatic upgrades during the licence year on reaching the
relevant points threshold.
(c) Veteran riders in their 50th
or greater year and irrespective of their category may apply, on their
first licence application for the relevant licence year, for an A2 or A3 licence with zero points
brought forward. Such riders are exempt from automatic upgrades during the licence year unless
requested by the rider on reaching the relevant points threshold.

It seems this rule was made up to suit a few individuals in particular (not naming names but most will recognize who they are) who are winning races consistently or placing. Examples can be provided if necessary. All of those that were promoted this year will be back in A3 again next year doing the same thing as the current rules allow (which were only implemented this year for the first time).

The system as it is is fair. You earn points through winning or placing in a race, you get upgraded on reaching 15. It's a system based on ability and merit and it's fair. The rules above circumvent that in favour of a few individuals.

If nothing else it is age discrimination.

The argument in favour of this is that older riders should not have to ride A1/2. The counter argument to that is that anyone who is capable of earning promotion in a season is capable of riding in a higher category! And has clearly demonstrated that by earning the promotion. Surely that's the way the system is structured! That's the way it works for everyone else.

Is it any wonder that the A3 (and also A4) ranks are massive while the upper ranks are tiny by comparison? Promotion is being actively blocked, both by this and by awarding junior riders points which also do not count towards promotion

I'm sure this will attract the usual debate.

wav1 · 16-06-2014 05:07PM

FFS here we go again.

Inquitus · 16-06-2014 05:26PM

There's no denying that Supervets and Juniors are swelling the ranks of A3 by hoovering up alot of the points and making upgrading to A2 harder then it would otherwise be.

wirelessdude01 · 16-06-2014 05:39PM

It really should be as simple as if your good enough to earn an upgrade, then you get upgraded.

Chips Lovell · 16-06-2014 06:34PM

Doesn't bother me. I'm riding A3 and haven't really seen much of vets hoovering up results. The good ones tend to move up when they get the points.

I do think it's fair enough that someone aged over 50 not be forced to ride A1/A2 races if they don't want to. Expecting older riders to survive in elite races because they can get a few results in A3 is classic Peter Principle in action.

Juniors racking up results is more prevalent, but CI have said it's technically unfeasible to separate out Juniors and Seniors for points purposes, so there's not too much we can do about that right now. I do feel that situation might be temporary, since smartphone and tablet apps may replace expensive finish line cameras. And if the ranks of Juniors continue to swell, they may soon have their own races.

Anyway, all of this is a bit of a non-issue since nobody really is being blocked from moving up to A2. For the last few years you could apply for an A2 licence if you wanted one and even before that, you'd usually get one if you asked for one.

lennymc · 16-06-2014 06:44PM

If a rider cant get points against juniors and vets they sure as hell wont have an easy time in A2. If they really want to get to A2, they can self upgrade at the start of the year. There really is no problem here.

mark kiernan · 16-06-2014 08:54PM

jaysus dont take the prizes from the grumpy old men
sure there pensions are worthless these days

fortis · 16-06-2014 09:36PM

I think the original point has gotten a bit lost. Getting to a2 wasn't the point, its implementing a fair points system, that's the point.

Its quite simple, if anyone regardless of age is capable of getting promoted (not to mind actually winning a race) then they should be. That's demonstrating ability irrespective of age.

Exceptions to this are implemented only to suit a few. <snip>

Beasty · 16-06-2014 09:52PM

fortis wrote: »

Exceptions to this are implemented only to suit a few. <snip>

If you have a complaint to make about this contact CI - do not make unsubstantiated allegations on this site

manwithaplan · 16-06-2014 09:55PM

Oscar Gateaux wrote: »

I'm riding A3 and haven't really seen much of vets hoovering up results.

I'm trying my best but my hoover is on the blink.

fortis · 16-06-2014 10:01PM

Quick on the draw there to censor! Seems a nerve was touched. Only stating the obvious the results are there for all to see so no need for the censorship.

The agm is place to bring it up I'll agree. I don't have a personal beef with anyone just want to see a fair system in place.

rigal · 16-06-2014 10:02PM

I disagree.

The more older/experienced riders we have in A3 the better. Most A3s who have only been racing for a few years, myself included, might not like to admit it to ourselves but we're not that different to A4s when it comes to race savvy etc. We're just thinner, fitter and complain slightly less. Having riders in our bunch who have raced for many years and set a good example can only be a good thing for the general development of A3 riders and juniors.

fortis · 16-06-2014 10:08PM

That also misses the point. The point is not to exclude anyone but to treat them the same.

wav1 · 16-06-2014 10:19PM

OK I've read enough
FACT these changes were brought to CI agm last yr by a grading review committee made up of very respected cycling people.All passed at agm and not one dissenting voice.BTW theres where you go to have a meaningful moan.As this appears to be a witch hunt against one guy please note it is fact that a committee signed off on these changes which I think is very fair.No 50 plus rider should be made ride elite events against riders preparing for ras etc.
Brilliant example y/day where another of our 50 plus guys won the A3 race in Roscommon.Delighted for him TBH.Under last yrs system he would have woken up this morning with an upgrade and racing career probably over.I seen the same guy get dropped on a climb just a week ago by the A3s.So now,he can continue and you know some day he just might have his day in the sun again.And thats thanks to a little progressive thought that went in to the process,ie fairness for all,and no it wasn't the 54 yr old cyclist/grading officer who made the changes.Our working group did,and I for one am very glad about that today as our winner from yesterday will continue to grace the A3 peloton and not become an ex racing cyclist.Sometimes people get far too carried away with things.Its all about being inclusive for all.If you have a problem with one guy,go and beat him on the road where it matters,and not on a forum where he cant get your wheel.

Inquitus · 16-06-2014 10:36PM

wav1 wrote: »

OK I've read enough
FACT these changes were brought to CI agm last yr by a grading review committee made up of very respected cycling people.All passed at agm and not one dissenting voice.BTW theres where you go to have a meaningful moan.As this appears to be a witch hunt against one guy please note it is fact that a committee signed off on these changes which I think is very fair.No 50 plus rider should be made ride elite events against riders preparing for ras etc.
Brilliant example y/day where another of our 50 plus guys won the A3 race in Roscommon.Delighted for him TBH.Under last yrs system he would have woken up this morning with an upgrade and racing career probably over.I seen the same guy get dropped on a climb just a week ago by the A3s.So now,he can continue and you know some day he just might have his day in the sun again.And thats thanks to a little progressive thought that went in to the process,ie fairness for all,and no it wasn't the 54 yr old cyclist/grading officer who made the changes.Our working group did,and I for one am very glad about that today as our winner from yesterday will continue to grace the A3 peloton and not become an ex racing cyclist.Sometimes people get far too carried away with things.Its all about being inclusive for all.If you have a problem with one guy,go and beat him on the road where it matters,and not on a forum where he cant get your wheel.

The dude who won the event in Roscommon is a long way short of an upgrade, 8 of 15 points so far, I understand the sentiment, but the facts are a bit off.

buffalo · 16-06-2014 10:39PM

Would a compromise be that Vets get awarded half-points? So only the very, very best get moved up?

Or given that they can downgrade every year, I don't really see the issue with awarding them normal points and upgrades. It gives them the chance for their day in the sun anew each season.

wav1 · 16-06-2014 10:41PM

Inquitus wrote: »

The dude who won the event in Roscommon is a long way short of an upgrade, 8 of 15 points so far, I understand the sentiment, but the facts are a bit off.

Possibly facts are off,but you know what I mean.If he has only 8 points then he got them all y/day,but the same guy had about 12 pts all last yr and he lived on the edge for the whole season.

rigal · 16-06-2014 10:43PM

Inquitus wrote: »

The dude who won the event in Roscommon is a long way short of an upgrade, 8 of 15 points so far, I understand the sentiment, but the facts are a bit off.

The facts are not really that off. He was upgraded to A2 last year so without the ruling I see no reason why it wouldn't have happened again.

wav1 · 16-06-2014 10:46PM

buffalo wrote: »

Would a compromise be that Vets get awarded half-points? So only the very, very best get moved up?

Or gi ven that they can downgrade every year, I don't really see the issue with awarding them normal points and upgrades. It gives them the chance for their day in the sun anew each season.

What happens to a 55 yr old rider who gets upgraded by the end of March?Hang it up for 11 months or go kill yourself with 20 something yrs old who possibly'probably are full timers.I see no reason at all why guys in their twentys shouldn't be beating these guys 99% of the time.

Inquitus · 16-06-2014 10:48PM

rigal wrote: »

The facts are not really that off. He was upgraded to A2 last year so without the ruling I see no reason why it wouldn't have happened again.

I don't see why he should not get upgraded again tbh, he can always downgrade at the end of the year as Buffalo says above. If you are 30, 40 or 50 and good enough why shouldn't upgrades apply? and if Vets can downgrade annually they are safe from being stuck in too high a grade.

Beasty · 16-06-2014 10:49PM

buffalo wrote: »

Would a compromise be that Vets get awarded half-points? So only the very, very best get moved up?

:eek: Age discrimnation!!! - I feel I should write a letter to the Times about this:D

ragazzo · 16-06-2014 11:12PM

Inquitus wrote: »

I don't see why he should not get upgraded again tbh, he can always downgrade at the end of the year as Buffalo says above. If you are 30, 40 or 50 and good enough why shouldn't upgrades apply? and if Vets can downgrade annually they are safe from being stuck in too high a grade.

I think all vets and juniors should be immediately reclassified as A1 riders. It is only fair. They win all the races and never share the ranking points with the ordinary decent A3's.
How do you expect real A3's to earn upgrades when those nasty vets and juniors hang around year in year out. Juniors are the worst as they keep sending in fresh recruits. It is just not fair. The real A3 riders who deserve upgrades are stuck in A3 because children and old men will not let them win. It is just not fair. Boohoo boohoo.

This forum would be very quiet if that happened. No vets or juniors to whinge about. Within a few years everyone would be A1. We could start our own pro teams then as we would all be superstars. If only we could get rid of the vets and juniors. Who do they think they are. Winning all the time and denying real men upgrades. I could have been a pro!

fixie fox · 16-06-2014 11:13PM

wav1 wrote: »

What happens to a 55 yr old rider who gets upgraded by the end of March?Hang it up for 11 months or go kill yourself with 20 something yrs old

What about the over 60s?
Over 50s have the option of downgrading to A3 but over 60s don't have the equivalent option to downgrade to A4 - they are stuck at A3 forever (as far as I understand it).

buffalo · 16-06-2014 11:17PM

wav1 wrote: »

What happens to a 55 yr old rider who gets upgraded by the end of March?Hang it up for 11 months or go kill yourself with 20 something yrs old who possibly'probably are full timers.I see no reason at all why guys in their twentys shouldn't be beating these guys 99% of the time.

I got promoted to A1, and have to compete against former (and current!) pros and full time riders, as well as riders who are just really, really, really good! They beat me 99%* of the time... can I stay in A2 or A3 please?

The above is facetious obviously, but I'm puzzled as to why a handicapping system which is apparently fair to all has to have such a large exception for older riders. At the end of this full season as an A1, when I inevitably fail to score any points, I'll downgrade to A2. Next season, if I end up in A1 by the end of March, I'll take that as a great indication of my ability, and see where I go from there. It'll be a tough season, but I won't have gotten 15 points on sheer fluke.

Likewise, if some vet is good enough to be upgraded from A3 by the end of March, I say fair play and well done to him or her! Clearly they're well able for racing (after all, they beat the dreaded juniors! :pac:), and indeed, they still have their choice of stage races. Worst case scenario, they spend their summer months racing in the vets' and masters events, before returning to their winning ways the following year.

*100%

wav1 · 16-06-2014 11:17PM

fixie fox wrote: »

What about the over 60s?
Over 50s have the option of downgrading to A3 but over 60s don't have the equivalent option to downgrade to A4 - they are stuck at A3 forever (as far as I understand it).

Not quite sure about this one TBH.I would think if they were a pointless A3 a case could be made for a downgrade,If not its getting closer to agm time again and would have my support

wav1 · 16-06-2014 11:25PM

o

buffalo wrote: »

I got promoted to A1, and have to compete against former (and current!) pros and full time riders, as well as riders who are just really, really, really good! They beat me 99%* of the time... can I stay in A2 or A3 please?

The above is facetious obviously, but I'm puzzled as to why a handicapping system which is apparently fair to all has to have such a large exception for older riders. At the end of this season, when I inevitably fail to score any points, I'll downgrade to A2. Next season, if I end up in A1 by the end of March, I'll take that as a great indication of my ability, and see where I go from there. It'll be a tough season, but I won't have gotten 15 points on sheer fluke.

Likewise, if some vet is good enough to be upgraded from A3 by the end of March, I say fair play and well done to him or her! Clearly they're well able for racing (after all, they beat the dreaded juniors! :pac:), and indeed, they still have their choice of stage races. Worst case scenario, they spend their summer months racing in the vets' and masters events, before returning to their winning ways the following year.

*100%

Real problem is that an upgrade from A3 for our ''last of the summer wine''guys is really an upgrade to A1,because of the lack of A2 specific races with a few exceptions.If there were A races every week I wouldn't really have a problem with it.You say you're downgrading but bar an odd stage race you're really not

buffalo · 16-06-2014 11:29PM

wav1 wrote: »

o
Real problem is that an upgrade from A3 for our ''last of the summer wine''guys is really an upgrade to A1,because of the lack of A2 specific races with a few exceptions.If there were A races every week I wouldn't really have a problem with it.You say you're downgrading but bar an odd stage race you're really not

Ah, have we hit upon the nub of the issue, which is that apart from stage races and the Christy McManus et al, A2 is just a hare category for the A1s? edit: or indeed, most of the time, A1 fodder.

I imagine it's more than the vets that have a problem with that!

wav1 · 16-06-2014 11:35PM

buffalo wrote: »

Ah, have we hit upon the nub of the issue, which is that apart from stage races and the Christy McManus et al, A2 is just a hare cat for the A1s?

I imagine it's more than the vets that have a problem with that!

I'd agree that is def a huge part of the problem,ie no A2 specific races.I don't think any of the 50 plus riders would have a problem riding these as in A2/A3/Jun stage races its usually the vets and juniors who do best.Most A2s would be on a par with good A3s IMO.

dave_o_brien · 17-06-2014 08:58AM

In principle, I have no issue with Vet's/Juniors being automatic A3's. It makes sense: they're either aging or developing.

What I don't understand in your thread of logic is that it is unfair to promote a Vet to A2 because of the lack of A2 specific events. The Veteran who has proved himself good enough shouldn't be forced to race the A1's. Why is that not the case for the rest of the senior A3's who earn enough points?

Again, I support the status of Vet's/Juniors, and think CI has been very smart about (for example) Dunbar, O'Brien, Shanahan, et al.

fortis · 17-06-2014 09:36AM

wav1 wrote: »

OK I
Brilliant example y/day where another of our 50 plus guys won the A3 race in Roscommon.Delighted for him TBH.Under last yrs system he would have woken up this morning with an upgrade and racing career probably over.

That kind of sums up the attitude of people who defend not having a straightforward points system and logical promotion. "I'm alright jack"!

Tell me how would his racing "career" be over! Did he fall? Did he break something? Is he not capable of mounting a bike the following week and doing it again?

Many here have pointed out that it's not a "witch hunt" or anything to do with age but more with ability. Anyone who has won a race has show they have ability. You don't win an A3 race by fluke.

I also agree with the sentiment on Juniors, they are not all created the same and you see many of them struggling in A3 races (again in no small part because the A3 cat is not a true reflection of A3 standard when people who are winning week in week out remain unpromoted, or drop back from higher cat's every year), but those that are (like the brilliant ED) are then moved up later in the year at CI's discretion.

Those that are struggling a bit however are surely none too impressed with the current setup either and are likely to become disillusioned.

If the problem is numbers in A2 (it clearly is, but part of the reason for that problem is that promotions out of A3 are not happening with the frequency they should be) perhaps an alternative for one year would be to move anyone in A3 with 8-10+ points up to A2 for next year (no exceptions). That would ensure a much bigger bunch in A2 and with a bigger bunch and more involved it should make the racing more interesting and "easier". The A3 category would still be plenty big.
Anyone who doesn't score an A2 point is allowed to downgrade the following year.

I wasn't at the Roscommon race you refer to, but I heard the A1/2 race consisted of about 20 riders. That's not a race. Something needs to be done.

Plastik · 17-06-2014 09:42AM

I think that any rider that earns an upgrade during the calender year and then immediately downgrades again over the winter for no other reason than they're a little older and it's a little harder just comes out of it looking like an idiot. I have no respect for them what so ever.

They can keep taking points, primes and cash prizes in A3 races from myself and others - I don't care, I'm in it for the fun - but I'll never clap or congratulate them. They're the ultimate sandbagger. By continuing to do it they simply reduce the stock of all they achieved in the past in my eyes. It's certainly all I'll remember them for.

Megathread: Discussion on Vets and Juniors in the A3 category

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