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Satan/Lucifer: hero of the bible?

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  • 26-04-2014 11:12pm
    #1
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭


    As long as I can remember I was always fascinated with the romantic view of Satan. I don't believe in either God or Satan, so when I look at the bible objectively I can't help but feel sympathetic for the character and his plight

    Satan is more like ourselves, Satan is a deeply flawed and lonely figure, his rebellion against an omnipotent and an all powerful God was always doomed to failure, but hes determined and ambitious, I think this is all relatable to people on some level, Satan dosent discriminate, I don't think he would care if your gay or a non believer or whatever.

    he doesn't necessarily represent cruelty or brutally, the word simply means "advesary" in Hebrew. Satan has virtuous characteristics, pride, individualism, liberty, rebellion. He stood up to a despicable God really, a genocidal maniac who cruelly toys with his creations knowing full well we can never live up to his impossible standards.

    Satan also gifted humans with the power of knowledge, when God wanted to keep us all ignorant and crude. Jesus was starving out in the desert and Satan offered to end his suffering.

    Is the concept of Satan something to be embraced and admired, a character to emulate in ways?

    Or maybe my thoughts are just the ramblings of a filthy heathen? :D

    Anyone have any opinions on this?
    I sure hope hell has ping pong...

    EDIT: This is a great documentary for anyone who is bored or interested, at the 38 minute mark it starts discussing what im getting at.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8XQbqZUkms


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    #2
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    In terms of the mythology, I've always viewed Lucifer as similar to Prometheus, stealing fire from the gods. Except instead of fire, it's knowledge.

    Also the Sandman Spin-Off series Lucifer is an amazing work and well worth a read, every bit the equal of Gaiman's series.


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    #3
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Interesting post, it could ruffle a few feathers at a Bible study meeting though. :P


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    #4
    Bipolar Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭Bipolar Joe


    I dunno a whole lot about religion other than what I read myself. I read about a sect called the Cathars who believed that other religions had got things the wrong way around, that Satan was actually God and vice versa. Satan (The God we know) tricked people into thinking he is God, and people just went along with it. Kind of makes sense when you think about how Satan is supposed to be evil, but God is the one continually pummelling humanity into dust.


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    #5
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    I've actually never really considered things like that OP. That's a very interesting take on things. Is it also worth considering that Satan is a manifestation of the perceived negative qualities of humanity according to religion? Qualities that we wouldn't necessarily view with negativity in modern society, hence him having some qualities of a humanist cult hero.


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    #6
    Lucyfur
    Registered Users Posts: 32,513 ✭✭✭✭Lucyfur


    Im lovely :)

    Honest


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    #7
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,178 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    I'm a fan of Man!


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    #8
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Any time is a good time for the stones.

    This thread is perfect though.



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    #9
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Load of bollix.


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    #10
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    That's an interesting take on it, I have to say. It's definitely given me some food for thought.


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    #11
    Hell Ram
    Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭Hell Ram


    Very interesting.

    Wouldn't be big into religion, but I'd be interested to read more about this.


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    #12
    Badly Drunk Boy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,537 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    The term Satan comes from the term for 'adversary', and in the early Bible stories, he was merely an adversary of God but similar in nature, similar to a Devil's Advocate perhaps, questioning God's ideas by debate rather than being his enemy. The name only got more negative connotations as the years went by.

    As mentioned by Links234 above, Lucifer means 'carrier of the light' as was Prometheus in Greek mythology.


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    #13
    gufnork
    Closed Accounts Posts: 546 ✭✭✭gufnork


    The romantic view of Satan is right. He's not known as the Prince of lies for nothing. If I could give anyone one piece of advice based on what I've been taught, it would be to 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you are here'. We're all here for a reason. We've all come to this world to accomplish something. What are you truly passionate about? What one thing truly consumes you? What is it that gets your blood racing through your veins? Look for patterns in your past, and amongst your ancestors. Your family isn't your family by accident.

    Forget adversaries, and start from the beginning. Start from what you know and go on from there.

    For what it's worth, I'm not a man that likes labels. There tend to be agendas behind them. They're quite appealing I know, but in all seriousness, if you'll take just one piece of advice, it would be just that. To 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you're here'.

    That's the beginning.


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    #14
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,416 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    As long as I can remember I was always fascinated with the romantic view of Satan. I don't believe in either God or Satan, so when I look at the bible objectively I can't help but feel sympathetic for the character and his plight

    Satan is more like ourselves, Satan is a deeply flawed and lonely figure, his rebellion against an omnipotent and an all powerful God was always doomed to failure, but hes determined and ambitious, I think this is all relatable to people on some level, Satan dosent discriminate, I don't think he would care if your gay or a non believer or whatever.

    he doesn't necessarily represent cruelty or brutally, the word simply means "advesary" in Hebrew. Satan has virtuous characteristics, pride, individualism, liberty, rebellion. He stood up to a despicable God really, a genocidal maniac who cruelly toys with his creations knowing full well we can never live up to his impossible standards.

    Satan also gifted humans with the power of knowledge, when God wanted to keep us all ignorant and crude. Jesus was starving out in the desert and Satan offered to end his suffering.

    Is the concept of Satan something to be embraced and admired, a character to emulate in ways?

    Or maybe my thoughts are just the ramblings of a filthy heathen? :D

    Anyone have any opinions on this?
    I sure hope hell has ping pong...

    EDIT: This is a great documentary for anyone who is bored or interested, at the 38 minute mark it starts discussing what im getting at.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g8XQbqZUkms

    God doesn't toy with his creations he gives us free will.Nor does he expect us to live up to his standards but just to try our best.


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    #15
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    kneemos wrote: »
    God doesn't toy with his creations he gives us free will.Nor does he expect us to live up to his standards but just to try our best.

    Have you read the old testament?

    Besides all that, Satan was the one who encouraged free will, God told Adam and Eve what they could and couldn't do. Satan in the garden of Eden said it was okay to practice our free will.


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    #16
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    gufnork wrote: »
    The romantic view of Satan is right. He's not known as the Prince of lies for nothing. If I could give anyone one piece of advice based on what I've been taught, it would be to 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you are here'. We're all here for a reason. We've all come to this world to accomplish something. What are you truly passionate about? What one thing truly consumes you? What is it that gets your blood racing through your veins? Look for patterns in your past, and amongst your ancestors. Your family isn't your family by accident.

    Forget adversaries, and start from the beginning. Start from what you know and go on from there.

    For what it's worth, I'm not a man that likes labels. There tend to be agendas behind them. They're quite appealing I know, but in all seriousness, if you'll take just one piece of advice, it would be just that. To 'creep behind your eyelids, and find out why you're here'.

    That's the beginning.

    What about that kid in school who could turn his eyelids inside out ?
    Should he use a mirror .... or take a selfie ?


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    #17
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    Read Paradise Lost by John Milton. Epic poem which has Satan rallying his defeated army with stirring speeches.


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    #18
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,416 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    Have you read the old testament?

    Besides all that, Satan was the one who encouraged free will, God told Adam and Eve what they could and couldn't do. Satan in the garden of Eden said it was okay to practice our free will.

    Yeah it's all open to interpretation.You can see it whatever way you like to suit your agenda I suppose.
    For someone that claims not to have an interest either way there certainly seems to be a bias.


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    #19
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    kneemos wrote: »
    Yeah it's all open to interpretation.You can see it whatever way you like to suit your agenda I suppose.
    For someone that claims not to have an interest either way there certainly seems to be a bias.

    No, I said I have a fascination with the character of Satan and was sympathetic to his hypothetical agenda.

    It's all mythology though. So we might aswell be debating the various merits of the tooth fairy vs the Easter bunny.


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    #20
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users Posts: 9,893 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    kneemos wrote: »
    God doesn't toy with his creations he gives us free will.Nor does he expect us to live up to his standards but just to try our best.

    God gives us the free will to do exactly as he says or else burn in hell forever... But he still loves you...

    Said some comedian... roughly.


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    #21
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,416 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    No, I said I have a fascination with the character of Satan and was sympathetic to his hypothetical agenda.

    It's all mythology though. So we might aswell be debating the various merits of the tooth fairy vs the Easter bunny.

    So you are biased.


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    #22
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    kneemos wrote: »
    So you are biased.

    And you're not? Its not a matter of being biased or not, im sharing an opinion and a point of view.


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    #23
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,416 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    And you're not? Its not a matter of being biased or not, im sharing an opinion and a point of view.

    Indeed.As long as we're clear where your coming from.


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    #24
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    kneemos wrote: »
    Indeed.As long as we're clear where your coming from.

    I think it's quite clear where im coming from.


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    #25
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    No, I said I have a fascination with the character of Satan and was sympathetic to his hypothetical agenda.

    It's all mythology though. So we might aswell be debating the various merits of the tooth fairy vs the Easter bunny.


    Ahh Jesus Zed don't start, you had a good thing going with discussion of the character of Satan, don't let this one turn into another train wreck of a thread about "debating" the existence of God. Let's just all kick back and talk about Satan for a while... :D


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    #26
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    God killed millions in the bible.. Satan killed like ten.


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    #27
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,692 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    kneemos wrote: »
    So you are biased.

    Funny as the only one here who appeared to be biased is you.

    Interesting OP, going to watch that documentary now :)


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    #28
    Mahou
    Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭Mahou


    Deleted User wrote: »
    God killed millions in the bible.. Satan killed like ten.
    He liked ten or killed ten?


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    #29
    minidazzler
    Registered Users Posts: 14,739 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Here's one for you, Got was personally responsible for over 33 million deaths in the Bible, while Satan was responsible for 10.... which got allowed as part of a bet.


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    #30
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Tbh, most mainstream forms of Satanism seem relatively benign, compared to any of your usual controversial religions/ideologies :pac:
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Satanism

    Anyway, random clip:


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    #31
    Duggy747
    Registered Users Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    minidazzler wrote: »
    Here's one for you, Got was personally responsible for over 33 million deaths in the Bible, while Satan was responsible for 10.... which got allowed as part of a bet.

    Always found that story of Job funny, they easily could've put him in the middle of nowhere during extremely shìt weather with nothing but a rag to cover his arse.

    Didn't need to go the whole hog of killing all his livestock, most of his servants, and all of his children just so God could go to Satan and effectively say: "See? He still worships me despite having nothing!..................You owe me a tenner, Lucifer."


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