Childminder to our home - sick days/holidays

dec1892 · 03-02-2014 12:09AM #1

Hiya,
I´m looking for a child minder to come to my home to mind my two children for 3 days a week. Two questions:

1. What is the norm with regards sick days and holidays for the minder? Is the expectation that I would pay the minder for any sick days and holidays?

2. I´m considering offering €7 per hour cash. Based in Dublin. Is this about a fair rate for minding two children in our home?

Thanks,
dec1892

MouseTail · 03-02-2014 07:16AM

dec1892 wrote: »

Hiya,
I´m looking for a child minder to come to my home to mind my two children for 3 days a week. Two questions:

1. What is the norm with regards sick days and holidays for the minder? Is the expectation that I would pay the minder for any sick days and holidays?

2. I´m considering offering €7 per hour cash. Based in Dublin. Is this about a fair rate for minding two children in our home?

Thanks,
dec1892

if they come into your home, as opposed to your children going to theirs, they are your employee.

you must pay minimum wage and deduct PRSI and they should have a contract that specifies holidays and sick pay. That's the law.

godtabh · 03-02-2014 07:29AM

MouseTail wrote: »

if they come into your home, as opposed to your children going to theirs, they are your employee.

you must pay minimum wage and deduct PRSI and they should have a contract that specifies holidays and sick pay. That's the law.

That is incorrect. The can be employed as contract staff I.e. The child minder is responsible for their own tax, sick pay and holidays. They will be self employed

davo10 · 03-02-2014 08:10AM

You must pay a minimum €8.65 per hour and she is entitled to holidays based on time accrued. Whether holidays are paid or not depends as said above on the working arrangement, employee or self employed. Be advised, unless you give her a contract which says she is a contractor, she can assume that she is an employee and you are responsible for her Prsi, etc. Also bare in mind that as an employee she would be entitled to be paid when you and the kids are away on holiday.

Frank Black · 03-02-2014 08:36AM

OP, we do this.
I won't go into the legalities/tax side of things, because the reality is that this is unlikly to be an issue.
We don't pay CM for holidays/sick days.
We pay her €65 per day for minding 2 kids, the oldest is in primary school and the youngest goes to playschool for 3 hrs a day.
We're gone from 6am to 5.30pm.

davo10 · 03-02-2014 08:58AM

Frank Black wrote: »

OP, we do this.
I won't go into the legalities/tax side of things, because the reality is that this is unlikly to be an issue.
We don't pay CM for holidays/sick days.
We pay her €65 per day for minding 2 kids, the oldest is in primary school and the youngest goes to playschool for 3 hrs a day.
We're gone from 6am to 5.30pm.

€5.65 per hour, Prsi etc not paid, no holiday leave, that's exploitation. If CM applies for benefits in the future or if you have a falling out, have your chequebook at the ready and prepare to take a hit from revenue and CM.

Flippyfloppy · 03-02-2014 08:59AM

Hi op. You should have a look at rollercoaster.ie there's loads of childminders & parents on there who've gone through the same thing.

Alan Shore · 03-02-2014 09:01AM

Frank Black wrote: »

OP, we do this.
I won't go into the legalities/tax side of things, because the reality is that this is unlikly to be an issue.

famous last words, when dealing with employees.

Ray Palmer · 03-02-2014 10:08AM

You don't hire them as employees you hire them as self employed people. They register as a sole trader and liable for all their taxes.

If they chose to work for less then minimum wage that is their concern not yours.

Frank Black · 03-02-2014 10:28AM

davo10 wrote: »

€5.65 per hour, Prsi etc not paid, no holiday leave, that's exploitation. If CM applies for benefits in the future or if you have a falling out, have your chequebook at the ready and prepare to take a hit from revenue and CM.

Our CM has more disposable income than us - she's more than happy with the situation and is far from being exploited.

Considering she's not declaring her income from the child minding, it's unlikly she's report us to Revenue, but thanks for your concern

BTW your maths is off too.

davo10 · 03-02-2014 11:41AM

Frank Black wrote: »

Our CM has more disposable income than us - she's more than happy with the situation and is far from being exploited.

Considering she's not declaring her income from the child minding, it's unlikly she's report us to Revenue, but thanks for your concern

BTW your maths is off too.

Her disposable income is her business, not yours. Legislation is in place to require employers to pay employees a minimum of €8.65 per hour regardless of what you have decided is a fair rate.

She doesn't have to declare her income, unless you have given her a contract that says she is providing services as a self employed person, you have to register her as an employee and pay her Prsi, USC etc.

All Rosie in the garden now but if you have a falling out which oft happens, or she goes on maternity/sick leave then you'll find out where you stand.

Now 6am to 5:30pm is eleven and a half hours in my book, at €65 per day is that not €5.65 per hour?

Frank Black · 03-02-2014 11:48AM

davo10 wrote: »

Her disposable income is her business, not yours. Legislation is in place to require employers to pay employees a minimum of €8.65 per hour regardless of what you have decided is a fair rate.

She doesn't have to declare her income, unless you have given her a contract that says she is providing services as a self employed person, you have to register her as an employee and pay her Prsi, USC etc.

All Rosie in the garden now but if you have a falling out which oft happens, or she goes on maternity/sick leave then you'll find out where you stand.

Now 6am to 5:30pm is eleven and a half hours in my book, at €65 per day is that not €5.65 per hour?

Listen buddy - why not address the OP's issues as opposed to sticking your nose in my business, OP asked a question, I provided some information based on a similar situation I have experience of

At the moment I'm slightly concerned that you've confused me with someone who gives a **** about what you think.

runawaybishop · 03-02-2014 12:04PM

Frank Black wrote: »

Listen buddy - why not address the OP's issues as opposed to sticking your nose in my business, OP asked a question, I provided some information based on a similar situation I have experience of

At the moment I'm slightly concerned that you've confused me with someone who gives a **** about what you think.

You provided information that could result in legal difficulties.

jd83 · 03-02-2014 12:58PM

Op id go get proper advise from revenue how to pay someone properly. If you go down the route of the other poster and pay some slave labour rate it will just come back to bite you down the road.

Better to have it all done properly, have your ass covered and not have to worry about this and concentrate on getting someone good to look after your kids.

Flippyfloppy · 03-02-2014 01:08PM

5.65 an hour! For an 11 1/2 hour day with 2 children. I'm going to be sick.

davidm20 · 03-02-2014 01:14PM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

5.65 an hour! For an 11 1/2 hour day with 2 children. I'm going to be sick.

Don't be, you won't get paid

runawaybishop · 03-02-2014 01:17PM

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

5.65 an hour! For an 11 1/2 hour day with 2 children. I'm going to be sick.

No need to over-react. I'd say the childminder is happy enough with the arrangement.

davo10 · 03-02-2014 01:23PM

Frank Black wrote: »

Listen buddy - why not address the OP's issues as opposed to sticking your nose in my business, OP asked a question, I provided some information based on a similar situation I have experience of

At the moment I'm slightly concerned that you've confused me with someone who gives a **** about what you think.

Firstly, you posted the information on a public forum. Secondly your info was wrong and illegal. Thirdly, whether you like it or not, we are allowed to form an opinion based in what you posted. Fourthly, don't be concerned nor confused, €5.65 per hour for an 11 and a half our day minding 2 kids says you are exploiting the CM, what I think is immaterial. Fifthly we are addressing the OPs question and the best bit of advice was given above by jd83, contact revenue for advice.

Mrs OBumble · 03-02-2014 01:24PM

godtabh wrote: »

That is incorrect. The can be employed as contract staff I.e. The child minder is responsible for their own tax, sick pay and holidays. They will be self employed

I'm leaving this thread open so that someone can provide a link from an official source explaining how is is possible to do this, for work done in the employer's premises, at fixed hours set by the employer.

Am sceptical that this exists - but maybe there's some exemption for childcare work that I don't know about.

Other than that, a friendly reminder that all advice given on boards.ie should be legal, and that unciivil posting will not be tolerated: if you post details of something you are doing, then expect it to be critiqued.

professore · 03-02-2014 01:25PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You don't hire them as employees you hire them as self employed people. They register as a sole trader and liable for all their taxes.

If they chose to work for less then minimum wage that is their concern not yours.

Revenue view a sole trader with one customer as an employee.

davo10 · 03-02-2014 01:28PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

No need to over-react. I'd say the childminder is happy enough with the arrangement.

I'm not so sure this argument stands, should employees be allowed to be paid less than minimum wage if they are happy enough with the arrangement? Surely that is why there is legislation to prevent employers exploiting employees in this way.

runawaybishop · 03-02-2014 01:32PM

davo10 wrote: »

I'm not so sure this argument stands, should employees be allowed to be paid less than minimum wage if they are happy enough with the arrangement? Surely that is why there is legislation to prevent employers exploiting employees in this way.

They are not employees. Childminders are self employed.

runawaybishop · 03-02-2014 01:38PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'm leaving this thread open so that someone can provide a link from an official source explaining how is is possible to do this, for work done in the employer's premises, at fixed hours set by the employer.

Am sceptical that this exists - but maybe there's some exemption for childcare work that I don't know about.

Other than that, a friendly reminder that all advice given on boards.ie should be legal, and that unciivil posting will not be tolerated: if you post details of something you are doing, then expect it to be critiqued.

The guidelines and all documentation i have seen indicate a childminder works from their own home, not someone elses. Nonetheless, the terms are left to the minder and parents to agree to. There's no regulation on price here. The minder can earn 15k tax exempt a year.

martinr5232 · 03-02-2014 01:43PM

We had a childminder in our house minding the kids we had to pay her taxes and holiday pay as she was coming into our house.

Now we have the kids minded outside the house we dont have to pay holiday pay or her taxes plus were not having to pay for heating and esb during the day so i would think long and hard about having a chilminder in your own home.

2013Lara · 03-02-2014 01:46PM

I'm a Childminder in my own home, registered as self employed and pay my tax and prsi, do my tax returns etc. I provide a service from my own home. Prior to this I was a Nanny in my employers home, she was my boss and I worked for her. She was registered as my employer and I was paid 10 euro per hour after tax, regardless of how many children I was minding. I wouldn't regard the parents of the children I mind now my boss, they do not employ me, they use my service. My PRSI was paid and I was entitled to normal class A benefits. That is considered the norm when someone minds in your own home. Therefore entitled to holiday pay and sick leave just like any other employee.

Flippyfloppy · 03-02-2014 01:47PM

http://www.rollercoaster.ie/Article/tabid/156/ArticleName/Employing_a_Childminder/Default.aspx

Employing a Childminder

Question

My little boy has just started school. We have found a childminder to pick him up and take care of him in our home until we get back from work. She will work approximately 15 hours a week for us. I think that she can be considered self-employed so I don't need to worry about paying tax and PRSI on her behalf. Is this correct? (November 2010)
Answer

No, a childminder working in your home is classified as a domestic worker. (If she was working in her own home she could be considered self-employed.) Domestic workers should pay tax and PRSI in the same way as other employees. If you are employing someone to do domestic work and you are paying them €40 a week or more, you must register as an employer with the Revenue Commissioners. As an employer you are responsible for deducting PAYE (tax), PRSI and levies from your employee's wages. You also must pay employer's PRSI contributions for your employee to the national Social Insurance Fund.
To register as an individual employer for PAYE and PRSI you can download form TR1 from the Revenue website or contact your local Revenue office. When you have sent the completed form to Revenue, you will receive confirmation that you are registered as an employer together with your employer registered number for PAYE purposes and information about the PAYE system and procedures.
You can find the Employer's Guide to PAYE on the Revenue website which includes sections on new employees, calculating tax due and PRSI. When you are paying your employee you must give her a payslip giving details of the PAYE and PRSI that has been deducted.

Frank Black · 03-02-2014 01:48PM

davo10 wrote: »

Firstly, you posted the information on a public forum. Secondly your info was wrong and illegal. Thirdly, whether you like it or not, we are allowed to form an opinion based in what you posted. Fourthly, don't be concerned nor confused, €5.65 per hour for an 11 and a half our day minding 2 kids says you are exploiting the CM, what I think is immaterial. Fifthly we are addressing the OPs question and the best bit of advice was given above by jd83, contact revenue for advice.

Firstly - thanks I didn't know boards.ie was a public forum.
Secondly - how could the info be wrong? It's what I'm doing, Please post some links to prove the illegaility.
Thirdly - I never said you weren't allowed an opinion - just that I don't give a **** about yours.
Forthly - it's not explotation, just your opinion (which as I've said doesn't concern me).
Fifthly - the only uselful advice the Op has received is from me. Contact revenue? - yes that's what everyone does who employs a CM :rolleyes:. Most of the posters here can quote employment legislation til the cows come home, but ye obviously don't live in the real-world.

dec1892 · 03-02-2014 01:53PM

martinr5232 wrote: »

We had a childminder in our house minding the kids we had to pay her taxes and holiday pay as she was coming into our house.

Now we have the kids minded outside the house we dont have to pay holiday pay or her taxes plus were not having to pay for heating and esb during the day so i would think long and hard about having a chilminder in your own home.

The reason we are going down the CM to our home (as opposed bringing the kids to the CM) is that our youngest fella has a condition and so therefore needs some medication during the day - so our preference would be keep him in the home as opposed to exposing him to other kids where he would be more liable to pick up infections, colds etc

Would be interested in getting to the bottom of where we stand legally in the case of getting a CM into the home

runawaybishop · 03-02-2014 01:54PM

Frank Black wrote: »

Secondly - how could the info be wrong? It's what I'm doing, Please post some links to prove the illegaility..

It depends if you have the kids looked after in your own home or not. If they aren't in your home then you have no issue.

Flippyfloppy · 03-02-2014 01:56PM

dec1892 wrote: »

The reason we are going down the CM to our home (as opposed bringing the kids to the CM) is that our youngest fella has a condition and so therefore needs some medication during the day - so our preference would be keep him in the home as opposed to exposing him to other kids where he would be more liable to pick up infections, colds etc

Would be interested in getting to the bottom of where we stand legally in the case of getting a CM into the home

Most county councils have Childcare Committees, they are fantastic for help and advice. You wouldnt really want to pick up on [bad] habits of random strangers on the internet.

A childminder in your own home would really be a Nanny. And Au Pair is a cheaper option, they get paid very little as you give them food & board.

Mrs OBumble · 03-02-2014 02:17PM

Frank Black - do not post in this thread again.

Childminder to our home - sick days/holidays

Comments