Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Irish Aid to Uganda

Options
  • 07-10-2012 9:37am
    #1
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭


    Kevin Myers posed a very good question in his Indo column on Friday to which I can't think of any good answer: why did Ireland give €33m in aid last year to a country which at the same time spent $740m on six of these:

    Ugandan-Air-Force_Sukhoi-Su-30MK2_110612.jpg

    I'd have to agree with Myers that it's completely bonkers that we are borrowing money we don't have to give to a country which is spending such enormous sums on military hardware. And we're indirectly subsidising the Russian arms industry into the bargain.

    Can anyone else make any sense of this? It beats the hell out of me . . .


«1

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    not yet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,008 ✭✭✭not yet


    Ah sure it'll be alright, we are getting a deal on our bank debt so it's not going to cost us as much to buy those planes.


  • Options
    #3
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    Makes no sense at all as to why we are subsiding the Russian arms industry and giving 'aid' to countries that spend more on their military than we do.


  • Options
    #4
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    This would be an example of why the aid budget should be more specifically targeted to countries which are in more genuine need of it, of which Uganda is not.


  • Options
    #5
    van_beano
    Registered Users Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭van_beano


    The whole oversea's Aid that Ireland is contributing to at the moment is, in my opinion, complete madness anyways, regardless of what country is getting the Aid. Since we've practically zero growth in this country, should these countries that we contributed to over the years start contributing to us??


  • Options
    #6
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    van_beano wrote: »
    The whole oversea's Aid that Ireland is contributing to at the moment is, in my opinion, complete madness anyways, regardless of what country is getting the Aid. Since we've practically zero growth in this country, should these countries that we contributed to over the years start contributing to us??

    Let them start handing out the Trocaire boxes to their schoolkids.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    van_beano wrote: »
    The whole oversea's Aid that Ireland is contributing to at the moment is, in my opinion, complete madness anyways, regardless of what country is getting the Aid. Since we've practically zero growth in this country, should these countries that we contributed to over the years start contributing to us??

    Man of them are (indirectly) through contributions to the IMF.


  • Options
    #8
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    sock puppet wrote: »
    Man of them are (indirectly) through contributions to the IMF.

    Loans with interest doesn't equal charity or aid.


  • Options
    #9
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    juan.kerr wrote: »
    Loans with interest doesn't equal charity or aid.

    What does that have to do with it? The IMF don't pay a dividend.


  • Options
    #10
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    sock puppet wrote: »
    What does that have to do with it? The IMF don't pay a dividend.

    It's as relevant as bringing up the IMF into this thread. Countries fund the IMF for their own benefit. We just happen to be current recipients of IMF loans.


  • Options
    #11
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    sock puppet wrote: »
    What does that have to do with it? The IMF don't pay a dividend.

    Incidentally, our IMF quota is 7 times that of Uganda, so we contributed significantly more to our own IMF loans than Uganda and any of the other third world countries.

    http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.aspx#I


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Kevin Myers posed a very good question in his Indo column on Friday to which I can't think of any good answer: why did Ireland give €33m in aid last year to a country which at the same time spent $740m on six of these:

    Ugandan-Air-Force_Sukhoi-Su-30MK2_110612.jpg

    I'd have to agree with Myers that it's completely bonkers that we are borrowing money we don't have to give to a country which is spending such enormous sums on military hardware. And we're indirectly subsidising the Russian arms industry into the bargain.

    Can anyone else make any sense of this? It beats the hell out of me . . .

    because the backhanders / brown envelopes from the russian arms industry make their way through Uganda to certain Irish people. I have no doubt that irish do-gooders make money out of us borrowing money ( to be repaid by all our grandkids ) to give to Uganda to buy warplanes.
    A few years ago we gave money / aid to a nuclear power, Pakistan. Bonkers.


  • Options
    #13
    sock puppet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    juan.kerr wrote: »
    It's as relevant as bringing up the IMF into this thread. Countries fund the IMF for their own benefit. We just happen to be current recipients of IMF loans.

    So the same logic doesn't apply to international aid?


  • Options
    #14
    juan.kerr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭juan.kerr


    sock puppet wrote: »
    So the same logic doesn't apply to international aid?

    No. The IMF isn't a charitable / benevolent organisation.

    What benefit did we ever get from giving aid to Uganda or Ethiopia? We did it entirely for their benefit, not ours.


  • Options
    #15
    Cork boy 55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭Cork boy 55


    juan.kerr wrote: »
    No. The IMF isn't a charitable / benevolent organisation.

    What benefit did we ever get from giving aid to Uganda or Ethiopia? We did it entirely for their benefit, not ours.


    This is the third time Kevin Myres has brought this up in his columns
    Met with silence from your political class not one of them will say anything
    whatever the debate on IrishAID giving money to a place like Uganda is a disgrace

    Tullow Oil appears to have benefited
    several FF are shareholders with Tullow oil and numerous other connections.
    Michael Martin met them during his trip to Uganda in 2010.

    old thread from 2010 on it here good thread on politics.ie on it as well link is this thread
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66695063

    Untitled-1.jpg


  • Options
    #16
    Scortho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,876 ✭✭✭Scortho


    I never understood the idea of giving aid to foreign countries when we had so many problems here at home.

    Fair enough with people donating privately to NGOs but the idea of the government donating money to foreign countries when we have 100s of people sleeping on the streets of our major cities each night and people being kept on trollies and unemployment as high as it is doesnt seem right.

    Crumlin Hospital were fundraising for an unpgrade to their cancer ward earlier on in the year. Surely this 33 million would have been better spent on this than towards foreign aid.

    No point borrowing to fund foreign countries when we we're cutting funding towards vital services here at home!

    Yes cuts have to be made and the books balanced. THis should be one of them!


  • Options
    #17
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,386 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Taxes should not be used to fund charity at home or abroad. The payment of tax is not optional. If I want to give to a charity then I will do so myself, the government should not be reaching into my pocket to do it for me. I do not donate to Irish charities because of their lack of transparency and regulation, some of them exist primarily for the benefit of their founders/employees.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #18
    tomby527
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭tomby527


    Response to Myer's article published on www.developmenteducation.ie called, We need to talk about Kevin.
    http://www.developmenteducation.ie/blog/2012/10/we-need-to-talk-about-kevin/

    It took many many years before overseas aid spending was cranked up to current levels at the DFA, based on a various long term public (and popular) campaigns over 20 years for it. It is now at the core of how Ireland views itself and acts outside Ireland. This is something to be proud of.

    The question then is not 'why aid?', but 'how is it being spent?' Not something that should be trivialized to the nth degree then through such sensationalist tracts, Kevin.


  • Options
    #19
    [Jackass]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    Trade, not aid.

    It's a raging debate, on the face of it, yes aid has proven to be useless, as it is often syphoned off through corrupt Governments to a political elite as well as used to fund oppressive political regimes and in the acts of genocide.

    There are economic principles to it also though, such as the Millennium Development Goals and development through the HDI. Some argue that aid should be directly linked to HDI performance, others argue that trade is the answer, assisting in the setting up of local industry and having trade agreements with them, funds going directly to the impovrished, but then you have to wonder how long it would remain sincere aid and not be siezed in such politically volatile regions.

    Bill Gates is a big advocate of debt forgiveness and trade, not aid, but the whole 3rd world problem is a taboo political problem that is swept under the carpet, but history has shown that no amount of money thrown at the problem can help, as trillions has been wasted over the last half century, more than enough to develop a civalised society.


  • Options
    #20
    Cork boy 55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,324 ✭✭✭Cork boy 55


    Irish govt just cut the aid to Uganda govt over corruption, NGO aid continues

    Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore has suspended all Irish Aid payments channelled through the Ugandan government after allegations that €4m in aid has been misappropriated.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/irish-aid-payments-stopped-after-4m-goes-missing.html


  • Options
    #21
    SubBusted
    Site Banned Posts: 224 ✭✭SubBusted


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Can anyone else make any sense of this? It beats the hell out of me . . .
    If Ireland ever gets attacked we can phone Uganda and they will fly their fighter jets here to help defend our fair land.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I didn't think Gilmore was capable of such swift and sensible decision making. Shocking stuff!


  • Options
    #23
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    I think a review-board is in order to study all other countries the government donate monies to and also get more Auditors to look into all of these other ones. Irish Investigative journalists should get stuck in as well to see what is really going on.


  • Options
    #24
    Hidalgo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,845 ✭✭✭Hidalgo


    Manach wrote: »
    This would be an example of why the aid budget should be more specifically targeted to countries which are in more genuine need of it, of which Uganda is not.

    Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.


  • Options
    #25
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    Charity should begin at home, instead of us ( as a bankrupt, insolvent country ) borrowing yet more vast amounts of money to give to other dubious regimes.


  • Options
    #26
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,348 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    zenno wrote: »
    I think a review-board is in order to study all other countries the government donate monies to and also get more Auditors to look into all of these other ones. Irish Investigative journalists should get stuck in as well to see what is really going on.
    A friend is an auditor. A few years ago he spent about a month in 3(?) African countries doing audits - pick random projects and see if they have been completed. All Irish Aid funding is dependent on previously funded projects being completed.

    Hidalgo wrote: »
    Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.
    Agreed.


  • Options
    #27
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    Victor wrote: »
    A friend is an auditor. A few years ago he spent about a month in 3(?) African countries doing audits - pick random projects and see if they have been completed. All Irish Aid funding is dependent on previously funded projects being completed.


    Agreed.
    Mr Gilmore said the Government, through Irish Aid, was due to pledge €17 million to the east African state but will withhold the €16 million still due pending the inquiry..

    It seems very strange that if this €4m Euro was fraud at work by the Ugandan government then i can't see why they would damage themselves as they were going to receive an up-coming €16 million. Why take a chance like this when you are going to receive €16m ?. seems strange.


  • Options
    #28
    zenno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭zenno


    Hidalgo wrote: »
    Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.

    Then stop the funding. If said funding is not reaching the poorest that need it then remove the funding and re-structure your ways of making damn sure the funding does get to the poorest and not spent on any military project.


  • Options
    #29
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,386 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hidalgo wrote: »
    Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.

    Then their government needs to look at their priorities, don't you think?

    If we are funding any such country, by taking on the funding of food/education/etc we're simply freeing up their own resources to divert them to spend on weapons and almost certainly making the situation ultimately far worse.

    The best thing we can do for Africa is free up trade and leave it alone. But that doesn't jive with the thousands employed in very well-paid jobs in the Irish charity industry, or the general soft-headness of the Irish people when presented with what they think is a 'good cause'. cf. the funds given to the 'Chernobyl Children' scam when no child alive today was materially affected by that incident.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Options
    #30
    passarellaie
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭passarellaie


    Ireland is spending 700 million on foreign aid per year.Imagine what that could do for the health service!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    passarellaie wrote: »
    Ireland is spending 700 million on foreign aid per year.Imagine what that could do for the health service!
    do not forget our kids and grandkids will be paying interest on each and every years borrowings until its repaid. Its only a few years since Germany completed paying money it owed since the end of WW1.


Advertisement