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RTÉ Aertel and Saorview [Merged]

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  • 04-10-2012 5:49pm
    #1
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭


    Confirmed by Saorview over on twitter that the traditional analogue text will be gone from RTÉ1/2 at ASO but will continue on TV3/TG4
    Brian Greene@BrianGreene 4 Oct 12
    @SAORVIEW after october 24th will aertel continue as is on digital sat and analogue cable

    Tommy & PJ@SAORVIEW
    @BrianGreene Analogue teletext will cease on SAORVIEW for RTÉ 1 & RTÉ 2 on 24th Oct. TV3 and TG4 will continue to have analogue teletext.
    4 Oct 12

    https://twitter.com/SAORVIEW/status/253816229406601216


«134

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    #2
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    For as long as TV3 or TG4 bother ...

    But it's EBU Teletext, it's Digital (always has been) and works perfectly on all Digital platforms. It just happens to be the only Digital Text system supported on Irish Analogue TV.


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    #3
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,387 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    What exactly is analogue text? After ASO the channels will all be digital, what makes the Aertel analogue vs. digital?


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    #4
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    I wonder if they will keep subtitles on 888 for analogue cable.


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    #5
    winston_1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭winston_1


    coylemj wrote: »
    What exactly is analogue text? After ASO the channels will all be digital, what makes the Aertel analogue vs. digital?

    There is no such thing as analogue text. Teletext is and always has been digital by its nature.

    The correct term for original teletext, ceefax, oracle, aertel etc is world service teletext.


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    #6
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    winston_1 wrote: »
    There is no such thing as analogue text. Teletext is and always has been digital by its nature.

    I know :rolleyes:, I had you in mind when I wrote the thread title but Watty beat you to it - I know how it annoys you. Next thing you'll be telling me Nicam NICAM stereo sound is digital too ;)


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    #7
    winston_1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭winston_1


    The Cush wrote: »
    I know :rolleyes:, I had you in mind when I wrote the thread title but Watty beat you to it - I know how it annoys you. Next thing you'll be telling me Nicam stereo sound is digital too ;)

    Hm. Should nicam have an upper case letter?


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    #8
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    From reading the OP, it only suggests that Aertel Teletext will be going from Saorview/DTT on the 24th and not from cable & Sky?


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    #9
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    coylemj wrote: »
    What exactly is analogue text? After ASO the channels will all be digital, what makes the Aertel analogue vs. digital?

    I use the term analogue text to refer to the traditional teletext piggy-backed on an analogue channel to differentiate it from MHEG-5 Digital Aertel carried on Saorview.

    The teletext service on the analogue channels is transmitted as digital data as is the stereo sound.


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    #10
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    winston_1 wrote: »
    The correct term for original teletext, ceefax, oracle, aertel etc is world service teletext.

    It's World System Teletext.


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    #11
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    winston_1 wrote: »
    Hm. Should nicam have an upper case letter?

    Sorted :D


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    #12
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    lawhec wrote: »
    From reading the OP, it only suggests that Aertel Teletext will be going from Saorview/DTT on the 24th and not from cable & Sky?

    Their twitter reply to that appears to be a bit vague - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=81089316&postcount=16

    Are they referring to UPC/Sky carrying the old or new teletext?


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    #13
    MarkK
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭MarkK


    The Cush wrote: »
    Are they referring to UPC/Sky carrying the old or new teletext?

    There was another reply on Twitter about that:

    "Tommy & PJ ‏@SAORVIEW

    @BrianGreene Cable & Sat is a matter for those platform providers, so viewers concerned about UPC and SKY, should contact them directly. "

    https://twitter.com/SAORVIEW/status/253816337212768256


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    #14
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    MarkK wrote: »
    There was another reply on Twitter about that:

    "Tommy & PJ ‏@SAORVIEW

    @BrianGreene Cable & Sat is a matter for those platform providers, so viewers concerned about UPC and SKY, should contact them directly. "

    Yes, I posted that tweet over in my post in the satellite forum, linked above. A bit vague, are they referring to the traditional analogue text or the new digital Aertel? Are they saying it's up to UPC and Sky if they wish to carry the new Digital Aertel as the old text service will no longer be available?


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    #15
    Mr Cumulonimbus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Mr Cumulonimbus


    Disappointing to see this. Lost MHEG5 text on both a W4000 and V4500 series Sony TV at the start of the year for whatever reason. They were set to UK as country. OK up to then.

    Set country to Portugal on both, and currently getting the older text fine on them.


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    #16
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭Antenna


    RTE withdrawing WST would annoy more people than withdrawing the radio stations from Saorview IMHO.

    What with the amount of popular Combi receivers (Ferguson Arivas etc) - which can only work with RTE's WST teletext on RTE1 - sold in the country.
    It has been suggested that as much as 70% of the total number of terrestrial and combi boxes sold so far in the country will only work with the traditional WST teletext !

    And is it the case that cable (UPC and others), MMDS and Sky viewers will have to put up an aerial and get a Saorview box/TV if they want to have RTE teletext ?

    On Nationwide's Saorview special last Wednesday it was mentioned that the digital text on Saorview could provide sports results etc - a great advantage of it to those without broadband - as if we hadn't that capability already for many years on the traditional teletext.


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    #17
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You might as well complain MPEG2 TVs won't work after ASO.

    No one was forced to buy set-boxes with partial compatibility. At least unlike TVs over the last two years only a few set-boxes have been sold that actually don't really work at all due to being MPEG2 only or no HD.

    TWO years ago Ireland should have done what France did and brought in minimum specs for retailers to sell stuff and also €50,000 per event for any misleading advertising.

    Every day 1000s of products and Mobile Internet is misleadingly sold across Ireland. Consumer protection in terms of any proactive enforcement is rubbish. ASAI might as well not exist.

    Comreg has no mechanism for the public to report equipment illegally interfering with Mobile, TV or Radio or Video senders or WiFi. When you do get them to survey they will not tell you results and will not stop illegal interference and will only communicate with the Manufacturer. They will refuse to get involved with Sale Of Goods Act issues to help the consumer get refund / replacement.

    Is it a wonder how much Anti-social behaviour, bad driving, fly tipping rubbish and criminality there is when State Agencies & Local Councils won't enforce the Law. Not to mention TDs encouraging people to break the law.


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    #18
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭Antenna


    watty wrote: »
    You might as well complain MPEG2 TVs won't work after ASO.

    No one was forced to buy set-boxes with partial compatibility. At least unlike TVs over the last two years only a few set-boxes have been sold that actually don't really work at all due to being MPEG2 only or no HD.

    TWO years ago Ireland should have done what France did and brought in minimum specs for retailers to sell stuff and also €50,000 per event for any misleading advertising.

    Could you clarify what you are saying Watty.?
    Are you saying it ought to have been illegal to sell non-Saorview/non-MHEG5 STBs (combo and terrestrial) and TVs in the republic ???
    How realistic would it be?
    Firstly it could cause huge issues for retailers near the border unless the same ban was also introduced in Northern Ireland.
    Secondly could such a ban also stop people purchasing non-MHEG5 STBs from Poland etc? I don't think so.
    I know some local retailers stocked Ferguson Ariva combos at a good price as a response to so many people getting them by mail order from overseas.
    Irish Retailers would be crying foul.

    There has been no proper announcement about WST teletext ending on DTT. If the BBC was doing this I'm sure they would provide an anouncement. There is no technical reason why it has to be switched off on DTT on the 24th October, its not as if the STBs concerned extract WST teletext from analogue signals.

    I know people who actually have a Saorview approved box yet still use the old style teletext on RTE1 (SCART connected TV) to look up the news etc. The TV's teletext caching means it works 'instantly', unlike the MHEG5.
    Its also going to mean no Aertel on hotel etc systems where Saorview boxes feed modulators to existing TVs.

    The old style/WST teletext is still going strong in most of Europe, they do not have to follow the UK?

    Issues about interference and concerns about PLT broadband etc are worthy of discussion, but surely in another thread?


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    #19
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://www.satellitetv.ie/freeview_saorview_box/xoro_hrt_7520_hd
    Please note this receiver is not Saorview approved so no Video Teletext on RTE 2 HD. Normal teletext on RTE1 and TV3 and TG4 does work.

    very sharp "Normal teletext on RTE1" - for the next 8 days :mad:

    if you don't have broadband flight arrivals is kinda handy


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    #20
    winston_1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭winston_1


    Antenna wrote: »
    Could you clarify what you are saying Watty.?
    Are you saying it ought to have been illegal to sell non-Saorview/non-MHEG5 STBs (combo and terrestrial) and TVs in the republic ???
    How realistic would it be?
    Firstly it could cause huge issues for retailers near the border unless the same ban was also introduced in Northern Ireland.
    Secondly could such a ban also stop people purchasing non-MHEG5 STBs from Poland etc? I don't think so.

    It was done in France and they have borders with other countries as well. If someone deliberately crosses a border to buy equipment that is not approved locally they get what they deserve. You cannot not legislate because of idiots.


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    #21
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    winston_1 wrote: »
    It was done in France and they have borders with other countries as well. If someone deliberately crosses a border to buy equipment that is not approved locally they get what they deserve. You cannot not legislate because of idiots.

    The have actually done it in Italy too. where its Illegal from 2015 to sell gear not DVB-T2.

    Sadly it may go and possibly it shouldnt given that it takes up a tiny amount of data them mux


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    #22
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Antenna wrote: »
    Could you clarify what you are saying Watty.?
    Are you saying it ought to have been illegal to sell non-Saorview/non-MHEG5 STBs (combo and terrestrial) and TVs in the republic ???
    ...
    I know people who actually have a Saorview approved box yet still use the old style teletext on RTE1 (SCART connected TV) to look up the news etc. The TV's teletext caching means it works 'instantly', unlike the MHEG5.
    fast text is a feature of the receiver, just means it caches pages

    Given that lots of places like the post office and local supermarkets are selling non-approved boxes and there are a plethora of rebadged ones sourced from all over, what do you think the chances of someone being able to get a refund if the boxes don't work as described ?

    Here's a clue if the box has a brand name you've never heard of before / doesn't have a history of being sold here do you think there will be a dealer support network kept running after the carpet baggers have moved on ?


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    #23
    sesswhat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭sesswhat


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Here's a clue if the box has a brand name you've never heard of before / doesn't have a history of being sold here ...

    And thats just the approved boxes :)


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    #24
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,520 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Digital Aertel coming to UPC but not Sky.
    Feithín Ó Fátharta‏@festy_93
    @SAORVIEW why aren't TV3 on Saorsat? And will the new aertel be available on sky and UPC?

    Tommy & PJ‏@SAORVIEW
    @festy_93 Digital Aertell will be available on UPC after ASO. Analogue Aertel will continue on SKY after ASO.
    17 Oct 2012

    http://twitter.com/SAORVIEW/status/258531024475127808


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    #25
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭Antenna


    The Cush wrote: »
    Digital Aertel coming to UPC but not Sky.

    THe only teletext that the UPC MMDS STBs I have seen are capable of is the WST (the so-called 'analogue' teletext), is it the case UPC will have two teletext services for RTE depending on subscriber.

    What about non-UPC cable services (such as Dungarvan Co. Waterford and some towns near the NI border- Longford etc) - will these loose Aertel ?
    I assume these receive the Saorview signal for RTE at their base.


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    #26
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    UPC has two different incompatible MMDS. The smaller number are ex-NTL and can use same box as cable (DVB-C). The larger number use a budget type of DVB-T box and are ex-Chorus.


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    #27
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,579 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    watty wrote: »
    UPC has two different incompatible MMDS. The smaller number are ex-NTL and can use same box as cable (DVB-C). The larger number use a budget type of DVB-T box and are ex-Chorus.

    Yes, and as UPC boxes use different middleware to both NTL and Chorus boxes, UPC's interactive services only work on UPC boxes, not Chorus or NTL ones. Means those still with NTL/Chorus boxes have to request (at a fee) a new UPC box if they want On-Demand when it is available in their areas. MMDS of course will never have On-Demand and we're still waiting to hear from ComReg if there even will be MMDS after 2014. (But that's a different issue for a different thread).

    I'm surprised though that RTÉ is even keeping Aertel alive on Sky. I would have thought they would have killed it across all platforms.


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    #28
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭Antenna


    icdg wrote: »
    I'm surprised though that RTÉ is even keeping Aertel alive on Sky. I would have thought they would have killed it across all platforms.

    The old style (WST) teletext is still going strong across mainland Europe, just because in the UK the BBC and ITV have been killing it off doesn't mean RTE has to do likewise?

    As well as Sky, what about UPC's analogue cable? - and the majority of UPC MMDS viewers (whose STBs are only compatible with WST teletext). Has there been clarification they will still have Aertel (as the tweet quoted above doesn't clarify this). All along analogue cable viewers and MMDS were told they didnt have to do anything for the 24th, but if they are loosing Aertel and they use it, they are going to be at a loss.


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    #29
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Tommy & PJ‏@SAORVIEW
    @festy_93 Digital Aertell will be available on UPC after ASO. Analogue Aertel will continue on SKY after ASO.
    17 Oct 2012

    http://twitter.com/SAORVIEW/status/258531024475127808

    This being the case there is no legitimate reason from withholding it from digital free to air customers. There might have been if the argument that was being used was that it would cost RTE to maintain two separate systems. This is not the case, now.

    People with legacy IDTVs/STBs who didnt buy Saorview approved gear have a legitimate gripe if the service is being maintained now after ASO for Sky (a pay only TV subscription company) alone but not being carried on the Saorview Mux. RTENL are aware that not everyone has approved equipment, and possibly do not care once people switch. Added to that the Saorview Equipment being offered since 2009 has been underspeced, limited, overpriced and narrow minded. Many people have in the mean time found a legitimate alternative to pay TV and affordable combo boxes have soared as a result, driven partly by word of mouth and this very site.

    Dont forget that traditional EBU teletext is in the Saorview spec.The space it takes up on the multiplex is tiny.There is no legitimate reason for removing it from the saorview Mux, especially now that we know that they will continue to maintain it.
    Saorview Spec Doc wrote:
    If you have a SAORVIEW Approved receiver you will continue to receive Teletext /Aertel services. SAORVIEW Approved receivers are capable of showing both traditional analogue EBU teletext and new digital teletext services.

    There are compatibility issues with some unapproved receivers and instead of just pressing the text button you may have to access the digital teletext service via another button or combinations of buttons.

    If you have an unapproved receiver that does not have MHEG5 middleware then will not be able to receive digital teletext.

    Broadcasters have the option to transmit traditional teletext (EBU teletext) and/or Digital teletext via the SAORVIEW service.

    Well then they need to be told to (keep) transmitting it. Otherwise people may ask why public supported money is being spent to maintain it to keep a private subscription company happy.


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    #30
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Lack of accountability and Transparency. Hallmark of RTE. They have all the worst aspects of a Civil Service, a Quango and a Private company and no sense of what being a Public Service Broadcaster serving the Public means.

    Ironically with Sky HD you need OpenTV text (Sky don't uses Freesat MHEG), not Teletext, the Sky Digibox doesn't do Teletext like Setboxes and FTA boxes do, they only re-inject into analogue out. So no Teletext via HDMI.

    But RTE shouldn't be paying cost of producing Teletext or OpenTV Interactive Text for Sky, Sky should pay for it.


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    #31
    Antenna
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭Antenna


    watty wrote: »
    Ironically with Sky HD you need OpenTV text (Sky don't uses Freesat MHEG), not Teletext, the Sky Digibox doesn't do Teletext like Setboxes and FTA boxes do, they only re-inject into analogue out. So no Teletext via HDMI.
    .

    Sky HD viewers CAN use (WST) teletext, but they need to have a second connection (in addition to HDMI) of either SCART or the RF modulator to the TV, and switchover to that input for teletext on RTE etc via the TV
    Pity the Sky HD boxes don't have built-in decoding of WST teletext as well as OpenTV text.

    BTW In the case of RTE2 on Sky HD, teletext only works when tuned to RTE2 SD but not on RTE2 HD, - strangely, as they are both on the same transponder, so could access the same teletext data stream?


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