Jaywalking crackdown

MJohnston · 02-10-2012 12:30pm #1

I'm not sure whether this belongs in roads or in general infrastructure, but regarding:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1002/1224324727714.html

Specifically the jaywalking enforcement. Having spend a fair amount of time recently in the US, I've noticed a big difference in attitude towards street crossing there compared to here. Now I know a lot of this is probably cultural/social and would require a few years of harsh enforcement to change, but I wanted to examine some possible technical reasons why people are less careful (in Dublin at least) about crossing the road:

- In the US, crossings that are at traffic lights usually do not require a button press to activate, they automatically trigger and display "Walk" or the equivalent symbol when crossing is safe. In Ireland, people usually have to have pressed the button before the green crossing light will appear, even at junctions where the pedestrian crossing phase is implicit - I think this conditions people to not necessarily "trust" that a red crossing light means that they can't cross.

- We generally have an amber phase for pedestrians that seems to last longer than the green phase for some strange reason - again I think this conditions pedestrians to not respect the red light quite as much. Why do we even need an amber phase?

- A lot of crossing junctions are "hidden" from the view of the traffic they are interacting with, I'm thinking here for example of the left turning traffic from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay and the crossing at the corner of this intersection. Pedestrians see the Burgh Quay traffic stop and assume it is safe to cross, but then cars turn from Westmoreland and have to wait for a huge crowd of people to get across the road.

- We have a few timers on pedestrian crossings (at Ha'penny Bridge northside there is one I believe) but not enough, I think more of these combined with changes to the above would condition people more to wait for the next crossing phase rather than risk it and run across traffic.

Like I say, a lot of the problems here are social - people don't seem to properly check crossing lights and walk out in front of traffic because the person in front of them legged it across the road, Dublin being full of tourists who don't really know the laws of the land, etc. What do people think of these technicalities though, do you think they make a difference? Would you change them? Any others?

dandanmur · 02-10-2012 12:35pm

I think you're right in saying that it is a social problem there. I was in Calgary, Alberta recently and there are no Jaywalking laws there, yet, even when there are no cars in sight and there is go walk signal, people will still wait.

AugustusMinimus · 02-10-2012 12:54pm

IMO. It's all just common sense.

Middle of the day with cars everywhere, use the crossing. Middle of the night with the street clearly empty, cross with caution.

There should be a crackdown on jaywalking but common sense must prevail.

Irish and Proud · 02-10-2012 3:07pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

IMO. It's all just common sense.

Middle of the day with cars everywhere, use the crossing. Middle of the night with the street clearly empty, cross with caution.

There should be a crackdown on jaywalking but common sense must prevail.

I jaywalk a lot myself - a crackdown on jaywalking would lose pedestrians too much time - I'd really hate it as I walk very fast and like to get from A to B quickly. Also, if I lose too much time while driving, I don't speed (well not at the wheel), but make up the time on foot instead. Driving at speed kills, but does jaywalking (within reason of course)?

On the street, the pedestrian should be king, especially in town centres - that's why a bypass should always be provided - as well as separate cycling infrastructure.

MJohnston · 02-10-2012 3:50pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Driving at speed kills, but does jaywalking (within reason of course)?

I've seen that same argument before, but its not right - you're more likely to kill yourself, or cause a traffic accident by making a vehicle swerve to avoid you and hit someone else etc.

Look, jaywalking isn't really the main problem I'd complain about - I do it all the time myself, but I know the crossings I do it at very well, I know the traffic light phases like the back of my hand and I only do it when I know the traffic won't appear out of nowhere.

However, what I'm talking about it is the kind of jaywalking that happens in the radius of O'Connell Bridge - people who don't check that lights are green or don't even look for traffic (I see this happen ALL the time) and just walk out because someone else did, people who cross at the very end of a phase and block traffic, people who leg it at totally the wrong time and cause traffic to break sharply. I'm thinking about ways that these people could be dis-incentivised from doing this.

Iwannahurl · 02-10-2012 4:57pm

Traffic culture, and "jaywalking" culture, varies from place to place.

In New York City, where the term "jaywalking" first became popular, it used to refer to country bumpkins, or "jays", who didn't know how to give way properly to big city traffic. In NYC these days, waiting for the Walk signal is the sign of someone from the sticks.

In the US the concept of "jaywalking" did not exist prior to 1920 or thereabouts, and enshrining it in law was largely the result of serious lobbying by the motor industry.

In Ireland we have a poor culture of compliance with traffic law generally, compared to, say, some North European countries. Copenhagen and Stockholm are two cities where I saw almost none of the muppetry that's completely normal for motorists, cyclists, pedestrians (and law enforcers) in this country.

However, the concept of "jaywalking" is potentially very value-laden. Policies are now changing, and are at last moving towards an understanding that active and sustainable modes of travel need to be prioritised. Car-focused engineer-think still dominates, though. How many engineers have written papers about how "vehicular interference" impedes the "saturation flow rate" of pedestrians trying to cross the street?

I would suggest that one cure for "jaywalking" in certain areas, such as O'Connell Bridge, is to greatly increase the pedestrian capacity of the link. These large city centre thoroughfares can carry vastly more pedestrian traffic per metre of road width, compared to cars.

L1011 · 02-10-2012 5:05pm

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In Ireland we have a poor culture of compliance with traffic law generally, compared to, say, some North European countries. Copenhagen and Stockholm are two cities where I saw almost none of the muppetry that's completely normal for motorists, cyclists, pedestrians (and law enforcers) in this country.

I'm actually in Copenhagen now and there's still rather a lot of clueless pedestrians and cyclists around. A LOT of red light breaking (for both).

Its better than Dublin but nowhere close to "none" - you do get that in Germany in places.

L1011 · 02-10-2012 5:39pm

If only to prove life imitating art, I was hit (at fairly low speed) by a cyclist while going between my hotel and the 7-11 there. I had a green man, he had a red light for the cycle lane. After apologising in Danish and then English he proceeded to break the sodding light again by going on.

All this at a busy junction with no pedestrian protection of any description and very poor pedestrian priority (but fantastic bike lanes).

Iwannahurl · 02-10-2012 7:10pm

Almost none.

That was my experience during a 2-week summer stay in the city centre.

I'd be interested to know how Copenhageners view the concept of "jaywalking" in their highly civilised city.

I saw very few cyclists breaking red lights, cycling on footpaths or otherwise giving other road users a hard time. They even managed to yield to bus passengers, where the cycle path was routed between the bus stop and the road. That said, it is known that cyclist-bus passenger collisions increased hugely after the use of that aspect of cyclepath design was extended.

As for pedestrians "jaywalking" on Copenhagen's cyclepaths, I saw very little of such behaviour either, though personally I had a bit of a learning curve in that regard, aided by cyclists' bells.

One way or another, there's a big difference between such cyclist-pedestrian interactions and cyclist-pedestrian-motorised vehicle interactions. I imagine that for people like the late Hans Monderman, there is no such thing as "jaywalking".

L1011 · 02-10-2012 7:18pm

On the walk back from the restaurant I had another cyclist break a red light at a pedestrian crossing. Far more than 'almost none'.

And a VW Golf, for fairness sake.

Is there a chance that I'm just extremely attuned to bad cycling, due to having to drive vans in city centres constantly; whereas you're not?

Iwannahurl · 02-10-2012 7:25pm

No, I'm extremely attuned to all sorts of bad behaviour on the road, whether cyclists, pedestrians or motorists. I don't jaywalk or cycle like a muppet myself, though I'm frequently surrounded by people who do.

Maybe in Copenhagen summer cycling is a different experience. The city may be in holiday mode, perhaps.

Or maybe you're in one of those anarchist neighbourhoods...

http://cphpost.dk/commentary/editorial/editorial-where-traffic-laws-are-eye-beholder

http://universitypost.dk/article/new-fines-slapped-bike-riders-copenhagen

L1011 · 02-10-2012 8:43pm

I'm right at the border between Vesterbro and Indre By, not quite Christiana by any means...

There's also an electric car charging bay outside the hotel that has been quite busy all day, but I've not seen any other electric cars anywhere else oddly.

galwaycyclist · 03-10-2012 2:26pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm not sure whether this belongs in roads or in general infrastructure, but regarding:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1002/1224324727714.html

Specifically the jaywalking enforcement. Having spend a fair amount of time recently in the US, I've noticed a big difference in attitude towards street crossing there compared to here. Now I know a lot of this is probably cultural/social and would require a few years of harsh enforcement to change, but I wanted to examine some possible technical reasons why people are less careful (in Dublin at least) about crossing the road:

- In the US, crossings that are at traffic lights usually do not require a button press to activate, they automatically trigger and display "Walk" or the equivalent symbol when crossing is safe. In Ireland, people usually have to have pressed the button before the green crossing light will appear, even at junctions where the pedestrian crossing phase is implicit - I think this conditions people to not necessarily "trust" that a red crossing light means that they can't cross.

- We generally have an amber phase for pedestrians that seems to last longer than the green phase for some strange reason - again I think this conditions pedestrians to not respect the red light quite as much. Why do we even need an amber phase?

- A lot of crossing junctions are "hidden" from the view of the traffic they are interacting with, I'm thinking here for example of the left turning traffic from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay and the crossing at the corner of this intersection. Pedestrians see the Burgh Quay traffic stop and assume it is safe to cross, but then cars turn from Westmoreland and have to wait for a huge crowd of people to get across the road.

- We have a few timers on pedestrian crossings (at Ha'penny Bridge northside there is one I believe) but not enough, I think more of these combined with changes to the above would condition people more to wait for the next crossing phase rather than risk it and run across traffic.

Like I say, a lot of the problems here are social - people don't seem to properly check crossing lights and walk out in front of traffic because the person in front of them legged it across the road, Dublin being full of tourists who don't really know the laws of the land, etc. What do people think of these technicalities though, do you think they make a difference? Would you change them? Any others?

The essence of the problem is that Irish road engineers frequently appear to use pedestrian crossings for the primary benefit of motorised traffic rather than pedestrians. It explains in part the curious reliance on traffic light crossings at locations where other countries would use zebra crossings. There would appear to be an attitude among some Irish engineers that the "pedestrian must always be made to wait".

The net result is to debase the concept among the target users.

Iwannahurl · 03-10-2012 4:13pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The net result is to debase the concept among the target users.

Would it be fair to suggest that many pedestrians -- and cyclists -- ignore traffic lights, because many traffic lights ignore them?

Plowman · 03-10-2012 4:59pm

This post has been deleted.

Irish and Proud · 03-10-2012 5:09pm

Plowman wrote: »

I can understand why there ought to be a crackdown on jaywalking, although I'm not sure how. (A licensing and penalty points system for pedestrians, perhaps? (just kidding ))

As a pedestrian, I'm often guilty of jaywalking myself. As a driver, people dashing out in front of my car is annoying and potentially dangerous, especially if I have to apply the brakes quickly.

If I approach a busy town or village centre, I aim for 30 kph - in such locations, the pedestrian is king IMO - the main fault regarding excessive hazard lies with the lack of a bypass - pedestrians should be reasonable though - I generally don't compromise motorists or cyclists when on foot.

Regards.

AugustusMinimus · 03-10-2012 6:34pm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

The essence of the problem is that Irish road engineers frequently appear to use pedestrian crossings for the primary benefit of motorised traffic rather than pedestrians. It explains in part the curious reliance on traffic light crossings at locations where other countries would use zebra crossings. There would appear to be an attitude among some Irish engineers that the "pedestrian must always be made to wait".

The net result is to debase the concept among the target users.

Why should pedestrians have priority over motorists and cyclists ?

No one has priority where there are traffic lights.

murphaph · 03-10-2012 11:59pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

No one has priority where there are traffic lights.

Clearly wheeled traffic has priority at a pelican crossing as the pedestrian has to push a button and wait for their phase before they can cross (unless they happen upon the crossing as someone else has pushed and waited). Pelicans could just as easily be wired with loops in the road to make them only turn green for wheeled traffic when a car/bike approaches, which is how it is now for pedestrians.

Zebra crossings could replace many Pelican crossings and pedestrians wouldn't have to wait at all.

Carawaystick · 04-10-2012 12:37am

Many villages and towns in Spain (in Catalunya, where I've driven most in particular)
have sensors at the boundary( where the town name is on a sign) which change a set of traffic lights red when you pass the boundary and then turn green or flashing amber in time for you to drive on if you obey the speed limit

Seasoft · 04-10-2012 9:12am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Would it be fair to suggest that many pedestrians -- and cyclists -- ignore traffic lights, because many traffic lights ignore them?

Absolutely! A point I've made before.
Example, a major tourist site is Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin. There are no pedestrain lights or zebra crossing across the top of the hill of Winetavern Street. Just a painted "Look Left" or "Look Right" on the road. The DCC is encouraging "jaywalking" and by people unfamiliar with Dublin motoriing ways.

As another poster said, engineers do not plan for pedestrians, just factor them in later.

Irish and Proud · 04-10-2012 9:23am

Seasoft wrote: »

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Would it be fair to suggest that many pedestrians -- and cyclists -- ignore traffic lights, because many traffic lights ignore them?

Absolutely! A point I've made before.
Example, a major tourist site is Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin. There are no pedestrain lights or zebra crossing across the top of the hill of Winetavern Street. Just a painted "Look Left" or "Look Right" on the road. The DCC is encouraging "jaywalking" and by people unfamiliar with Dublin motoriing ways.

As another poster said, engineers do not plan for pedestrians, just factor them in later.

...and all the NTA is going to achieve is reinforcing that problem by the removal of left slips. Left turning traffic can frustrate me as it frequently prevents me from crossing the rest of the road - I'm thinking 'why is there no left slip?'. 30/60 deg' left slips with zebra crossings could surely be used - of course, that's if authorities aren't anti-pedestrian.

Iwannahurl · 04-10-2012 9:38am

Seasoft wrote: »

As another poster said, engineers do not plan for pedestrians, just factor them in later.

If we're lucky.

Waiting 10+ years for traffic calming, pedestrian crossings and some footpath completions in my neck of the woods...

what_traffic · 04-10-2012 11:39am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Many villages and towns in Spain (in Catalunya, where I've driven most in particular)
have sensors at the boundary( where the town name is on a sign) which change a set of traffic lights red when you pass the boundary and then turn green or flashing amber in time for you to drive on if you obey the speed limit

Thats a great idea.

AugustusMinimus · 04-10-2012 9:48pm

murphaph wrote: »

Clearly wheeled traffic has priority at a pelican crossing as the pedestrian has to push a button and wait for their phase before they can cross (unless they happen upon the crossing as someone else has pushed and waited). Pelicans could just as easily be wired with loops in the road to make them only turn green for wheeled traffic when a car/bike approaches, which is how it is now for pedestrians.

Zebra crossings could replace many Pelican crossings and pedestrians wouldn't have to wait at all.

That's not true at all. Most crossings give an automatic go for pedestrians to cross without ever pressing a button.

loyatemu · 04-10-2012 10:38pm

at many Dublin junctions there are only pedestrian lights on 2 or 3 of the 4 crossings, meaning a pedestrian wishing to (legally) cross in the direction with no lights has to go all the way around and wait on 3 sets of lights. This is fairly typical of the car-centric design of our traffic signals.

Similarly forcing cyclists to go around one-way systems that have been put in place to improve the flow of cars - there should be short-cuts and contra-flow lanes for cyclists.

TBH I actually don't agree there should be a crackdown on jaywalking (or cyclists breaking ped lights for that matter, provided they're not ploughing through crowds of people) - credit people with some common sense. The burden of enforcement on motorists is higher because they're potential to cause death and injury is much higher.

Its also been shown that enforcing strict segregation between modes does not (as common sense might dictate) lead to a safer environment and a shared space where everyone is forced to give way to the slower and/or more vulnerable may be a safer design

Iwannahurl · 05-10-2012 8:01am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That's not true at all. Most crossings give an automatic go for pedestrians to cross without ever pressing a button.

Is that true? Any specific examples? How do those lights detect pdestrians?

AugustusMinimus · 05-10-2012 9:00am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is that true? Any specific examples? How do those lights detect pdestrians?

I went through one in Frankfield, Cork last night where the pedestrian light came on without anyone being at the junction.

Can you prove the hypothesis that they don't turn on without pressing the button ?

Iwannahurl · 05-10-2012 10:00am

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I went through one in Frankfield, Cork last night where the pedestrian light came on without anyone being at the junction.

Can you prove the hypothesis that they don't turn on without pressing the button ?

Ah yes, I know those "pedestrian priority" traffic signals. They're common enough.

As a motorist, I have had to wait at such junctions (sometimes in the wee small hours, with nobody else about) for what I call invisible pedestrians to cross. Ghosts getting the Green Man perhaps.

As a pedestrian, I find that I hit the button at such junctions and I wait, and I wait, sometimes for more than one cycle, depending on traffic. The pedestrian button is just a placebo, because in my experience many such lights are dumb signals set to go through their usual cycle regardless of what pedestrians (or perhaps even motorists) would prefer.

What I would call a pedestrian priority traffic signal is where traffic is halted and pedestrians get the green light soon after they push the button. But it's still the case that pedestrians have priority only after the light goes green for them.

antoobrien · 05-10-2012 11:38am

Iwannahurl wrote: »

As a pedestrian, I find that I hit the button at such junctions and I wait, and I wait, sometimes for more than one cycle, depending on traffic. The pedestrian button is just a placebo, because in my experience many such lights are dumb signals set to go through their usual cycle regardless of what pedestrians (or perhaps even motorists) would prefer.

On the contrary many of the lights with push buttons have timers to ensure that there is a balanced flow of pedestrian vs road traffic, usually on routes with high levels of road traffic. The downside of this is that the impatient jaywalk. Where there is space available there should be proper pedestrian footbridges provided - like those crossing the N4 between Lucan and the M50 junction. However they are only really possible in areas where there's a fair bit of space, which there isn't much of in the centre of most of the cities and and medium - big towns.

monument · 05-10-2012 11:48am

In an Irish context it is generally legal to cross a road anywhere once a signaled crossing is not within 15 meters.

People on foot actually have very strong legal rights at non-signaled crossings or where there is no crossing -- this is just not backed by road design, enforcement, or decent driver/cyclist education.

So given the legal right of pedestrians, the question also must be: Why don't motorists stop and let them cross? Why are motorists so aggressive?

Borrowed suggestion: There should be safety ads on TV telling motorists how costly hitting a pedestrian can be.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Is that true? Any specific examples? How do those lights detect pdestrians?

I went through one in Frankfield, Cork last night where the pedestrian light came on without anyone being at the junction.

Can you prove the hypothesis that they don't turn on without pressing the button ?

A hell of a load of ped lights in Dublin City centre only go green if somebody presses the button -- there's some cases where this is a good idea but not at these locations I'm thinking of with heavy footfall and where no cars are waiting at red lights anyway.

Iwannahurl · 05-10-2012 4:24pm

antoobrien wrote: »

On the contrary many of the lights with push buttons have timers to ensure that there is a balanced flow of pedestrian vs road traffic, usually on routes with high levels of road traffic. The downside of this is that the impatient jaywalk. Where there is space available there should be proper pedestrian footbridges provided - like those crossing the N4 between Lucan and the M50 junction. However they are only really possible in areas where there's a fair bit of space, which there isn't much of in the centre of most of the cities and and medium - big towns.

They're not the ones that AugustusMinimus was referring to.

It would be a strange pedestrian signal that set off one of those timers automatically, regardless of whether someone pushed the button or not.

Not many of those timed ped crossings in my particular neck of the woods. In fact very few pedestrian crossings of any type, despite a large young population. There is no balance between pedestrian movement and traffic flow. Cars are king, and the local authority has steadfastly ignored or even resisted all demands to level the playing pitch a wee bit. Still, one hopes for change...

Jaywalking crackdown

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