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Anyone know anything about BMW 5 series engine problems?

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  • 16-07-2012 10:26pm
    #1
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭


    I'm thinking of buying a circa 2008/2009 520d. Both my brother in law and a local mechanic have said they know a lot of 5 series that are off the road with engine problems but when I try and google exactly which engines are affected (if any) I can't find anything. All independant reliability ratings seem to be fine from what I've found.

    I like my brother in law but I take things he says with a pinch of salt and the mechanic did work before for me replacing brake pads and I had to take them back as he dangerously hadn't fitted then properly so his credibility would be questionable.

    Just wondering if anyone else has heard about engine problems in that era of 5 series and if anyone has any more detail on which engines may be affected?

    Cheers...


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    #2
    reb73
    Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭reb73


    I believe the N47 engines on the LCI (177bhp) models are slightly notorious for timing chain related issues.. Especially the ones manufactured between Mar 2007 to Feb 2008, better to go with ones with BMW extended warranty if possible.. 2009 models are less likely to have this issue..


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    #3
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056686927

    I think this will prove to be of benefit to the OP.

    For what it's worth OP, there are no (major) problems with 520ds before 2008, they use a different M47 engine.

    As the 525d, 530d and 535d in the E60 (the 5 series you're thinking of) do not use this engine (they use the M57 engine), if you want a 08 or 09 5 series, then you should consider one of these (the petrols also give a lot of trouble, and no-one wants them on the used market either). When the current model 5 series came out in mid 2010, the 520d engine was revised, while the 525d upwards got the N57 engine which is from the same 'family' as the N47 engined 520d, and *apparently* the timing chain problem was sorted out when BMW revised the N47 and N57 in 2010.

    It's worth pointing out that despite the fact that these cars have 3.0 litre engines, they're extremely good on fuel for the size of engine (obviously a 520d is better, but when driven sensibly a 530d can do 50 mpg), and the tax on them is the about the same as a 520d is on the engine size system.

    I don't know about the OP, but even if I wasn't interested in power or performance, I would rather pay a few hundred euro more a year to tax something that is a hell of a lot more reliable. Plus the fact that the larger engined models have six rather than four cylinders, so they will be quieter and a lot smoother to drive.


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    #4
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,418 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    As above..if you plan on buying a 08/09 buy one with a BMW warranty (you can get 2 years) to cover you in case of the timing chain issue etc.
    Joe's was the first car I've heard of it with that issue.
    Mine is the 07 LCI version with the M47 engine and no problems so far.
    Great car by the way...and a remapped one is fantastic :D


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    #5
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    I own a 3 series with the N47 engine. I test drove a 3 with the M47 (pre-2008) and thought it was a dog by comparison.

    I've 100k miles on the car at this stage and, touch wood, I've not had any issues.


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    #6
    Blazer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,418 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    pajo1981 wrote: »
    I own a 3 series with the N47 engine. I test drove a 3 with the M47 (pre-2008) and thought it was a dog by comparison.

    I've 100k miles on the car at this stage and, touch wood, I've not had any issues.

    yeah there's about 14hp and about 40nm more torque for the N47 over the M47 but a remap quickly sorts that out :D


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    #7
    pajo1981
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭pajo1981


    Blazer wrote: »
    yeah there's about 14hp and about 40nm more torque for the N47 over the M47 but a remap quickly sorts that out :D

    A remapped M47 does not an N47 make.

    There's a lot more than peak power/torque figures in the difference.

    Drive the two side by side an you'll see that they drive quite differently.


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    #8
    Bearcat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,326 ✭✭✭Bearcat


    I had a 03 and a 07 530d's. The 07 was an msport. Magnificent cars to drive but gave me nothing but fughing trouble. Sorry for language but it was a shame.

    The 03....cabin was flimsy and elecs were appalling but it had an engine shudder mid range at 2200rpm..the perfect spot you'd be at on the motorway at 110-120 kph. I changed maf's, injectors etc to no avail. Even did the swirl flaps and replaced them with the metal caps....car still shuddered.

    07 came and I thought I was sorted. What crept in at 2200rpm ? Same old, same old. I couldn't believe it.....shifted it on with the problem known to new buyer.

    I would never buy a 5 again.....they have an intrinsic design flaw in those engines and the more I dug deeper the more shudder in the engine in the mid range is par for the course. Then there is the swirl flap issue. It doesn't surprise me.....I removed the inlet manifold of the 03 with 60k miles on the clock.....to say it was caked in smut/soot/sh!te is an understatement.

    Rgds


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    #9
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    Thanks everyone for the posts, really helpful...thing I'll look at 530d instead :-)


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    #10
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    368100 wrote: »
    Thanks everyone for the posts, really helpful...thing I'll look at 530d instead :-)

    Good stuff, just make sure you go for an 08 (because it will be taxed on emissions and will be almost the same as a 07 520d) and it *has* to be automatic (you'll find it very hard to find a manual even if you want one but at this level auto is the only way to go).

    Have fun searching - as executive cars go, I don't think you can do better than a 530d - they're really excellent :)!


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    #11
    chrislentzy
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭chrislentzy


    Hi 368100,
    all BMWs with the N47 engine (used between Feb 2007 and May 2010) will give timing chain trouble. These engines are all starting to give problem now and you'll find alot more in the UK BMW forums. When the timing chain goes without warning you will have major damage done to your engine as I have.
    BMW Germany acknowledges that there was a design flaw with the drive sprocket which drives the timing chain, causing the chain to break and the engine to become damaged. Compensation is given in Germany for this, our problem is that the Irish main dealers are ignoring the problem and playing dumb rather than passing on this "goodwill" compensation.


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    #12
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Hi 368100,
    all BMWs with the N47 engine (used between Feb 2007 and May 2010) will give timing chain trouble. These engines are all starting to give problem now and you'll find alot more in the UK BMW forums. When the timing chain goes without warning you will have major damage done to your engine as I have.
    BMW Germany acknowledges that there was a design flaw with the drive sprocket which drives the timing chain, causing the chain to break and the engine to become damaged. Compensation is given in Germany for this, our problem is that the Irish main dealers are ignoring the problem and playing dumb rather than passing on this "goodwill" compensation.
    when this issue arises and the sprocket is replaced, is it a permanent fix, i.e. a modified sprocket or whatever, or is it another time bomb?


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    #13
    chrislentzy
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭chrislentzy


    Hi Idbatterim,
    thats a good question wether or not a new drive shaft with sprocket is a permanent fix for not.
    I'll ask the question and find out.


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    #14
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Hi Idbatterim,
    thats a good question wether or not a new drive shaft with sprocket is a permanent fix for not.
    I'll ask the question and find out.

    it would be different if this was a few hundred quid repaid job, id say given the value of these cars and they fact you might well get away with it, its worth the risk, different kettle of fish given the prices I have heard bandied about...


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    #15
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    when this issue arises and the sprocket is replaced, is it a permanent fix, i.e. a modified sprocket or whatever, or is it another time bomb?

    You need to make sure the replacement crank was produced after a certain date. Also, the issue affects cars built from March 1st 2007 to February 2011 according to the BMW PuMA case details. It affects the 1 Series, 3 Series & 5 Series N47 powered models.


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    #16
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    dont they test they cars for 100,000's of miles before putting them into production?


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    #17
    chrislentzy
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭chrislentzy


    Hi PAddy,
    so the new crankshaft would have to be produced after Feb 2011?


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    #18
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    chrislentzy wrote: »
    Hi PAddy,
    so the new crankshaft would have to be produced after Feb 2011?

    The car would have to be produced from March 2011, but as far as I remember the modified cranks were produced from May 2009 (I presume they can create the cranks faster than they need them and would still be using April 2009 cranks in February 2011 built cars.) The production date is stamped into the rear of the sprocket on the crank.


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    #19
    chrislentzy
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭chrislentzy


    they could have used different castings or tooling on the production model. This happens. But when it does you own up to the problem.


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    #20
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    Here's the BMW PuMA case for anyone interested (translated from German to English)

    PUMA 13588845-03 incidence recorded by BMW and its repair

    Diligence-number Item
    43863106-03 N47, N47S, N47T, rustling sound in the engine, timing chain rubs.

    Approval date (day.month.year) Status Organization
    Approved 14.12.11 Germany, automobiles

    Vehicles affected
    E Series Motor Body
    E60 E61 E81 E82 E83 N47 N47DKO N47S N47T E61 E60 E81 E82 E83 N47 N47S N47T N47DKO
    E84 E87 E88 E90 E91 E87 E84 E88 E90 E91
    E92 E93 F10 F11 F25 E93 E92 F10 F11 F25

    Feedback Comment production interval Feedback
    (From / to) on the production interval diligence (day.month.year) to (day.month.year)
    / 01.03.11 / 01.03.11

    Complaint
    Sound of friction drag on the engine from about 1500 rpm, which is visible from the inside.
    The noise can be perceived in area of the gearbox housing and the oil pan.

    Cause
    Excessively sharp edges on the sprockets, the chain does not flow evenly over the guides.

    Measures
    We must distinguish two cases:

    Case 1:

    For engines N47, N47DKO, N47S, interval from 01.03.2007 to production 05.01.2009.

    In case of customer complaint must change the following parts:
    (See Annexes, Figures 1 to 7.) - Nov. 21 7803479 Sutitución the crankshaft bearings.

    Caution: Use only crankshafts with a production date back to 5. 1. 1. 2009 2009
    The production date is printed on crankshaft sprocket (see page 2 of the Annex)

    Meaning of the figures:
    The first two indicate the assembly line.
    The 6 following year (two digits), month, day.
    Last 5 indicate the reference number of the crankshaft.
    Thus, the crankshaft shown on page 2 of the annex was built on October 21, 2009.
    41 -11 7,797,896 chain oil pump.
    11 31 8 506 652 Timing Chain bottom.
    13 52 7 797 906 sprocket for driving the high pressure pump.
    11 27 7 800 523 sprocket (intermediate for balance shafts).
    11 8,510,014 31 Supply Chain superior.
    -11 7,797,899 31 Timing Chain Guide above.
    -13 7,797,904 52 Timing Chain Guide below.

    Note: Adjusting the intermediate gear shafts accurately balanced according to workshop manual. In case this intermediate sprocket and the balance shafts are not sufficiently fit, the motor can still giving rise to noise despite the new crankshaft.

    See November 21 workshop manual 500 "crankshaft replacement."

    Note: In the case of vehicles to which a previous repair and they replaced the crankshaft:
    Proceed with these vehicles as detailed in "Case 2".

    Case 2:

    N47 engine, N47DKO, N47S, N47T production interval 05.01.2009 - 01.03.2011

    In case of customer complaint replace the following parts:
    (See Appendix, Art 8 to 10)
    -11 8,506,652 31 Supply Chain bottom.
    - 13 52 7 797 906 sprocket high pressure pump.
    - 11 31 8 510 014 Supply Chain superior.
    -11 7,797,899 31 Timing Chain Guide above.
    -13 7,797,904 52 Timing Chain Guide below.

    Note: There is no need to release the binding thread of the intermediate toothed wheel balancer shafts.

    Note: As of March 2011 there are new guidelines. These guidelines do not bring reinforcing ribs.

    (See Appendix, pp. 7 and 10.)
    In this way the inner surface of the guides is smooth throughout its length and the timing chain runs easily on them.
    They have not changed the references.

    Note: During the repair make sure guides are mounted without lateral veins (in the Annex, Art 7 and 10.)

    Attention:
    No repairs are allowed in vehicles with production date after 03/2011 and vehicles in which all existing measures have already been made. The sound now is the moment, the normal state of this world! No risk of broken chain!

    Not allowed engine change because of this claim!

    Claim
    Location of the defect: Defect Type: Circumstances of default:
    Guide part incorrect

    Crank Noise
    Wheel motor
    Distribution

    Worn crankshaft
    Wheel motor
    Distribution

    Motor Noise Motor Power


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    #21
    chrislentzy
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭chrislentzy


    Hi Paddy,
    I couldn't get the link at the top of your reply to work. Could you just check it.
    I assume all the BMW dealerships in Ireland would have been issued this?
    If you re-check the link I'll email it on to them all.
    Its a bloody disgrace!


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    #22
    Paddy@CIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Paddy@CIRL


    chrislentzy wrote: »
    Hi Paddy,
    I couldn't get the link at the top of your reply to work. Could you just check it.
    I assume all the BMW dealerships in Ireland would have been issued this?
    If you re-check the link I'll email it on to them all.
    Its a bloody disgrace!

    Can't find the link now, so removed it temporarily. If you Google 'PUMA 13588845-03' wait and see how many results you get ...


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    #23
    cferreira
    Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭cferreira


    There is a petition to make some pressure to BMW
    http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/BMW_N47_engine_recall/

    Please sign and share


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    #24
    kendelaney7
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭kendelaney7


    I'm buying a dec 09 520d should I be worried?


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    #25
    sawdoubters
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭sawdoubters


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74/features/bmw-chains-snap-n47-engine-2007-2009

    buying advice

    http://www.driving.co.uk/advice/bmw/5-series/9805


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