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Dubliner kills two kids and walks free

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    #422
    Eight Ball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 906 ✭✭✭Eight Ball


    seamus wrote: »
    Fair play to this guy manning up and doing his time. Plenty of lesser people would have made a run for it and put themselves out of reach of the authorities.

    Good god man he didn't man up at all. Stop that.


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    #423
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    I see its being suggested that he might appeal to President Higgins for a pardon.

    Considering the majority of peoples opinions on here about the case I dont think it will be a very popular decision.

    I personally hope he gets it but thats because I used to know him quite well many years ago and he is a nice guy.
    However I have enormous sympathy for the Zoltai family and did actually write to Mr Zoltai on this thread in the past.


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    #424
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    seamus wrote: »
    Still failing to answer my question I see, inventing false scenarios that didn't occur.
    To refresh your memory, this is the question:
    "If you found yourself convicted in absentia for a crime you dispute and subject to custodial sentence in a foreign (and significantly poorer) country, you would hop on the first plane over there to serve your time? Because you're not a lowlife, and only lowlifes fight extradition, right?"

    You thanked a post a couple above yours that says he wasnt required to be there for the trial. So presumably he knew that and was fine being tried and convicted in absentia. Otherwise he'd have turned up for it, no? Should they wait till he wants the trial to go ahead?


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    #425
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    ronjo wrote: »
    I see its being suggested that he might appeal to President Higgins for a pardon.

    Considering the majority of peoples opinions on here about the case I dont think it will be a very popular decision.

    I personally hope he gets it but thats because I used to know him quite well many years ago and he is a nice guy.
    However I have enormous sympathy for the Zoltai family and did actually write to Mr Zoltai on this thread in the past.

    Presumably if they were your kids youd still want him to get a pardon?


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    #426
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Presumably if they were your kids youd still want him to get a pardon?

    I was pretty sure this would be the first reply.
    No, I would probably want to kill him.
    Hypocritcal? Yes I know.


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    #427
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    ronjo wrote: »
    I was pretty sure this would be the first reply.
    No, I would probably want to kill him.
    Hypocritcal? Yes I know.

    A bit more than hypocritical imo. Your basically saying "**** those peoples kids, they don't really matter" and depending on your personal leanings the fact that they are foreign may come in to it too.


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    #428
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    A bit more than hypocritical imo. Your basically saying "**** those peoples kids, they don't really matter" and depending on your personal leanings the fact that they are foreign may come in to it too.

    No I am not and fcuk off with your racism accusation.


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    #429
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    ronjo wrote: »
    No I am not and fcuk off with your racism accusation.

    It would be a Xenophobic accusation if one were made at all, which it wasn't.


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    #430
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    It would be a Xenophobic accusation if one were made at all, which it wasn't.

    Yes you are right.

    It might not have been made but it was most certainly implied.


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    #431
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    A bit more than hypocritical imo. Your basically saying "**** those peoples kids, they don't really matter" and depending on your personal leanings the fact that they are foreign may come in to it too.

    That is not what he is saying and you know it. He is being honest, unlike a lot of posters here. We all take attacks on family personally, I have all my live advocated against the death penalty, I personally have serious issues with it. But can I honestly say if someone did serious harm to someone I know, that I would not at least think of giving that person a horrible painful death, of course I would, does that make my a hypocrite, no just a flawed human, something it seems most of the poster here are not, amazing how few flawed people on boards, I am truly blessed to be in the company of so many giants of humankind.


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    #432
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mod
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    It would be a Xenophobic accusation if one were made at all, which it wasn't.

    It was certainly implied and is nothing short of baiting.

    Back off.


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    #433
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    infosys wrote: »
    That is not what he is saying and you know it. He is being honest, unlike a lot of posters here. We all take attacks on family personally, I have all my live advocated against the death penalty, I personally have serious issues with it. But can I honestly say if someone did serious harm to someone I know, that I would not at least think of giving that person a horrible painful death, of course I would, does that make my a hypocrite, no just a flawed human, something it seems most of the poster here are not, amazing how few flawed people on boards, I am truly blessed to be in the company of so many giants of humankind.

    Thank you Infosys.
    I couldnt have put it better myself.


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    #434
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    You thanked a post a couple above yours that says he wasnt required to be there for the trial. So presumably he knew that and was fine being tried and convicted in absentia. Otherwise he'd have turned up for it, no? Should they wait till he wants the trial to go ahead?
    Did you read the judgement of the Supreme Court?

    Would you turn up to defend your case voluntarily, in the knowledge that you would be immediately remanded in custody if found guilty? In a foreign country, with a demonstrably ropey and inefficient legal system? I bet you say you would.
    It's easier to fight a conviction from a position of freedom than inside a foreign prison.

    I can guarantee that 99% of people if they were in this man's shoes, wouldn't have done a damn thing differently. Especially given the facts of the case. The accident could have happened to anybody.


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    #435
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    ronjo wrote: »
    I see its being suggested that he might appeal to President Higgins for a pardon.

    Considering the majority of peoples opinions on here about the case I dont think it will be a very popular decision.

    I personally hope he gets it but thats because I used to know him quite well many years ago and he is a nice guy.
    However I have enormous sympathy for the Zoltai family and did actually write to Mr Zoltai on this thread in the past.

    I know a guy who was sentenced for 2 years for low level drug dealing. The sentence was harsh given what was involved but he was made an example of regardless.

    This guy is absolutely bang on, never messed up before and hasn't since. But he'll tell you himself that he ****ed up because he saw easy money to be made which backfired in the end. He would have been bang within his rights to appeal given the severity of the sentence and what was actually involved, but he accepted his punishment.

    Unlike others, he never got it into his head that exceptions should be made for him just because he was a good guy.


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    #436
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    ronjo wrote: »
    I see its being suggested that he might appeal to President Higgins for a pardon.

    I would be very surprised if the President of Ireland can issue a Pardon to a person convicted in another state of a crime committed in another state.
    It would be akin to the President of Hungary issuing a pardon to the Dundons or John Gilligan.


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    #437
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    I would be very surprised if the President of Ireland can issue a Pardon to a person convicted in another state of a crime committed in another state.
    It would be akin to the President of Hungary issuing a pardon to the Dundons or John Gilligan.

    I just read it here this morning.
    THe Hungarian justice minister seems to think he will get it.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/man-jailed-for-killing-two-children-in-crash-to-seek-pardon-29921065.html


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    #438
    grizzly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭grizzly


    However, senior law lecturer Tom O'Malley said the issuing of pardons was extremely rare and usually only on the grounds of a clear miscarriage of justice.

    I think it would be a disgrace if he was pardoned. This case stinks of middle class entitlement.


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    #439
    Eircom_Sucks
    Registered Users Posts: 3,193 ✭✭✭Eircom_Sucks


    Sure some cnut mounted the path outside kavanaghs pub on malahide road 4 years ago and killed my aunt , she had 2 kids. , he was drunk and on drugs and got. 18 months and done 15 of that , while her kids have no mother , countrys legal system is shocking


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    #440
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    infosys wrote: »
    That is not what he is saying and you know it. He is being honest, unlike a lot of posters here. We all take attacks on family personally, I have all my live advocated against the death penalty, I personally have serious issues with it. But can I honestly say if someone did serious harm to someone I know, that I would not at least think of giving that person a horrible painful death, of course I would, does that make my a hypocrite, no just a flawed human, something it seems most of the poster here are not, amazing how few flawed people on boards, I am truly blessed to be in the company of so many giants of humankind.

    That's not the same as saying you hope someone that killed a couple of kids is let away with it because you used to know the guy and they weren't your kids. I'd probably have no issue killing someone that killed my kids, I wouldn't go that far for someone elses. But neither would I want someone let away with it just because they were someone elses kids, whether that person was a mate, my brother or anyone else. TBH if it was my brother in the same place as the guy in question I'd have probably given his a bit of a kicking at this stage , nevermind hoped he got away with it.


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    #441
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    seamus wrote: »
    Would you turn up to defend your case voluntarily, in the knowledge that you would be immediately remanded in custody if found guilty?

    Is that not how all courts work in this case?

    Would you be assuming youd be heading home afterwards if you were on a similar charge here?


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    #442
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've read this thread since the beginning, I've read the facts, and I can honestly say that I feel so sorry for Ciaran Tobin and his family. I think he has paid enough for this accident.


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    #443
    oceanman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭oceanman


    seamus wrote: »
    Did you read the judgement of the Supreme Court?

    Would you turn up to defend your case voluntarily, in the knowledge that you would be immediately remanded in custody if found guilty? In a foreign country, with a demonstrably ropey and inefficient legal system? I bet you say you would.
    It's easier to fight a conviction from a position of freedom than inside a foreign prison.

    I can guarantee that 99% of people if they were in this man's shoes, wouldn't have done a damn thing differently. Especially given the facts of the case. The accident could have happened to anybody.
    very true...


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    #444
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Is that not how all courts work in this case?

    Would you be assuming youd be heading home afterwards if you were on a similar charge here?
    The key point there really was "voluntarily". Over here, the trial wouldn't proceed without the defendant, as a criminal conviction in absentia is considered to be a violation of your common right to answer charges that are put to you.

    Why didn't he go back to answer the charges? For the same reason that Amanda Knox won't be in Italy for her murder trial. Anyone who says that they would go back voluntarily to face charges that they dispute is either lying or delusional.

    "I believe I'm innocent, but I believe so strongly in the principle of law that I will voluntarily put my freedom at risk so as to be seen in court".

    Sure.


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    #445
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've read this thread since the beginning, I've read the facts, and I can honestly say that I feel so sorry for Ciaran Tobin and his family. I think he has paid enough for this accident.
    If he does apply for a pardon, I believe that this is the basis on which he will apply - that he's had this hanging over his head for 12 years (?) - so arguably the stress and restrictions that this has placed on his and his family would constitute "due punishment", or something.

    Personally don't know how I feel about that, but we'll wait and see if he does apply.


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    #446
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've read this thread since the beginning, I've read the facts, and I can honestly say that I feel so sorry for Ciaran Tobin and his family. I think he has paid enough for this accident.

    Not as much as the family of the two kids he killed has.


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    #447
    ronjo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,176 ✭✭✭ronjo


    seamus wrote: »
    If he does apply for a pardon, I believe that this is the basis on which he will apply - that he's had this hanging over his head for 12 years (?) - so arguably the stress and restrictions that this has placed on his and his family would constitute "due punishment", or something.

    Personally don't know how I feel about that, but we'll wait and see if he does apply.

    Its almost 14 years.

    I would be surprised if it did happen too. Possibly the Hungarian Justice Minister said this knowing there would be quite a lot of outrage which might reduce the chances of it being granted.


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    #448
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    karma_ wrote: »
    Not as much as the family of the two kids he killed has.

    Bonus points for stating the obvious.

    I would be very surprised if he asks for a pardon at this stage.


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    #449
    Yellow121
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Yellow121


    I can't believe this scumbag is receiving sympathy. He killed two kids! They were 5 years old and two years old. He has/will spend less time in prison than the youngest of his victims. This is crazy.


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    #450
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 50,630 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yellow121 wrote: »
    I can't believe this scumbag is receiving sympathy. He killed two kids! They were 5 years old and two years old. He has/will spend less time in prison than the youngest of his victims. This is crazy.

    It was an accident.


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    #451
    Yellow121
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Yellow121


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It was an accident.

    So? He drove onto a footpath and killed two kids. Has he been banned from driving for life?
    Can anyone go around running people down on the roads and be excused if they say it's an accident?


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