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Erosion of north Wicklow coast. Possible cause: Greystones Harbour Development?

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    #2
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/album.php?albumid=2064#

    This album of photos shows the serious erosion of the glacial cliffs along the North Beach which has occurred within one month. Sispar and WCC are neglecting their duty and the conditions of planning approval by not protecting the cliffs from erosion. See this post for more detail: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77997817&postcount=1501

    that's significant erosion in only 4 weeks!


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    #3
    Greystoned
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Greystoned


    Earlier in the thread some posters raised the subject of the current rate vs. historical rates of North Beach erosion.

    Googling around I found a precise reference to the rate of erosion in the past:

    The east coast from Carnsore Point to Dublin Bay … has a number of wide bays due to erosion in locally softer rocks and in the drifts exposed as many miles of low cliffs. Cambrian or Ordovician beds, with intrusions, are forming a number of promontories such as Bray Head (quartzite), Wicklow Head, Mizen Point … Some of the bays between these have sand dunes partially stabilized by planting marram grass. Elsewhere the soft drift cliffs are subject to heavy marine attack, notably between Bray Head and Greystones, which stands on a small promontory of Cambrian slates and grits with quartzites: the railway line has been moved inland, and the loss of land was estimated at 4 ft. per year between 1905 and 1928, and has been similar since. In 1928 a storm removed several houses from the beach [it was in fact over several years around 1928 that the houses were undermined and collapsed]; the old coastal railway track [author means the path of the old track] is in the last stages of disintegration, and the harbor at Greystones has been almost entirely swept away.


    It was written in 1972 in Ireland: A General and Regional Geography, by Thomas Walter Freeman. See on google books at:
    http://books.google.fr/books?id=33g9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=greystones+erosion+wicklow+beach&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WbyGT-Yix4nQBba3xMoH&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=greystones erosion wicklow beach&f=false

    So… the book was written in 1972 and the author is laying down that the rate of erosion is at 4 feet per year from 1905 to 1972. Assuming that 4 ft/year remained the rate from 1972 to the beginning of the marina construction, it would appear that there has been a dramatic increase since the new piers were built – if the earlier photos posted by The Durutti Column (see # 1507 post) are anything to go by.


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    #4
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0411/sligo-council-seeks-funding-for-coastal-erosion.html

    Why is our county council not actively seeking the urgent stoppage to the erosion on the East Coast? Sligo was due to storms. Here it is due to incompetence. Never the less Wicklow County Council should be lobbying those accountable to prevent anymore erosion. This is not a town council issue in my opinion but a county council responsibility. Town councils should be looking after pay parking in the streets NOT having a say in a huge East Coast development that has gone sour. Why are we having the dialogue with the town council that has no influence, let alone knowledge in these areas. Wicklow County Council and the County Manager should take it on the chin, accept that the people involved (ie Greystones Town Council) are out of their depth and get the real players in that can sort this. I am not suggesting the redistribution of public funds but that the developers take their contractual responsibility towards our coastline seriously and sort it out.

    I hope that a public meeting will be called and that the predominate public officials are from Wicklow County Council. Where is the county manager in all this? I pay his salary. I want to see him standing up for Greystones and Wicklow.

    Or am I missing something?


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    #5
    darter
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭darter


    It is a far greater issue than a local council issue. Ireland's beeches belong to the nation, not to individual councils. Coastal erosion is a national issue. We should be alerting the Environmental Protection Agency to what is happening here.

    Can we as citizens launch a class-action law suit against WCC and their mishandling, as evidenced by the coastal erosion, of this?


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    #6
    Blanchflower
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Blanchflower


    In March 2006 at the first Bord Pleanala Oral Hearing in his Brief of Evidence Clon Unrick of Ove Arup & Partners Limited stated that the coastal protection scheme of the development was to consist of:
    • Capital beach nourishment of 30,000m3 shingle to provide for the initial effects of the construction of the marine works on the cliffs further north
    • Maintenance nourishment to provide managed cliff toe retreat for 30 years. This retreat will on average be less than the current retreat rate between Bray Head and Greystones over the design life of the coastal defences. The beach nourishment is expected to be up to 6,000m3 annually.
    The EIS prepared for the development stated that the breakwaters constitute the reason for beach nourishment and it predicted that they would result in increased erosion on the cliffs north of the development.

    These breakwaters have been completed for more than two years now but Wicklow County Council recently stated in an EIS and follow up letter to Bord Pleanala that so far only 10,000m3 of capital beach nourishment material has been placed on the north beach. They also admitted to Bord Pleanala in this letter that the date of the last survey of the North Beach was carried out in March 2010, two years ago.

    Sispar and Wicklow County Council have patently dishonoured their commitment for beach nourishment of the North Beach. They gave false promises to the Bord Inspector and to the people of Greystones. The huge impact on level of coastal erosion arising from this failure to comply with their commitment to nourish the beach is clearly visible for all to see.

    Why is Wicklow County Council allowing Sispar to renege on its specific contractual obligations regarding the programme of beach nourishment to protect the Greystones North Beach?


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    #7
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    darter wrote: »
    It is a far greater issue than a local council issue. Ireland's beeches belong to the nation, not to individual councils. Coastal erosion is a national issue. We should be alerting the Environmental Protection Agency to what is happening here.

    Can we as citizens launch a class-action law suit against WCC and their mishandling, as evidenced by the coastal erosion, of this?

    Why dont you do just that and contact the Depatment of the Environment as well?


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    #8
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    7129224329_9cceb565c8_z.jpg
    North Beach 30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


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    #9
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    6983147470_53b88e47f3_z.jpg
    North Beach 30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


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    #10
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    6983184268_293695d4a3_z.jpg
    North Beach 30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


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    #11
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    6983184268_293695d4a3_z.jpg
    North Beach 20/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr

    Hi John, nice pics. Have you taken any of the cliffs, especially near the rock armour, since the gales on Wednesday and Thursday last? If so, could you post them?


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    #12
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    "Hi John, nice pics. Have you taken any of the cliffs, especially near the rock armour, since the gales on Wednesday and Thursday last? If so, could you post them? "

    Will take a few tomorrow and post them


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    #13
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    Oh my God!

    I have pics taken 2 weeks ago and 6 weeks ago, the erosion is now exponential!


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    #14
    F3
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭F3


    I have a friend who has a lazer scanner, I'll try get him to do a sub-millimetre 3d lazer scan of the entire cliff face, and then compare every month against the actual rate of erosion against the 700mm per annum allowable. I don't see any beach norishment placed by Sispar yet, despite the recent press release by Hayden that it was to happen. Is it because he hasn't a clue what's going on, or is it because he knows exactly what is going on and just misinfoms people?


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    #15
    pixbyjohn
    Registered Users Posts: 6,250 ✭✭✭pixbyjohn


    7129433439_69c6ff2d91_z.jpg
    North Beach 30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr


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    #16
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ^^^
    Won't be long now before that green fence goes swimming.
    You can see the last few silver coloured poles of the previous fence scattered down at the base of the cliff. That was last year's Sispar fence, which was out a few metres from the green one.


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    #17
    Maudi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭Maudi


    pixbyjohn wrote: »
    7129433439_69c6ff2d91_z.jpg
    North Beach 30/04/2012 by pixbyjohn, on Flickr
    oh my god!!!!i was down at those rocks less than 2 weeks ago..the rate of erosion is incredible...why?


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    #18
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Maudi wrote: »
    oh my god!!!!i was down at those rocks less than 2 weeks ago..the rate of erosion is incredible...why?

    Why? Because Sispar have placed NO beach nourishment since they put 10,000 m3 in mid-2008, four whole years ago, even though they were supposed to place 30,000 m3 during the period of construction of the breakwaters. They have just ignored the planning conditions and the County Council has conspired with them in this.

    I have the documentary evidence, the smoking gun. I am not accusing — just stating the facts.


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    #19
    LEIN
    Moderators Posts: 9,936 ✭✭✭LEIN


    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    Why? Because Sispar have placed NO beach nourishment since they put 10,000 m3 in mid-2008, four whole years ago, even though they were supposed to place 30,000 m3 during the period of construction of the breakwaters. They have just ignored the planning conditions and the County Council has conspired with them in this.

    I have the documentary evidence, the smoking gun. I am not accusing — just stating the facts.

    .... and were are the facts to backup what you are saying here?


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    #20
    Fiachra2
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭Fiachra2


    DD9090 wrote: »
    .... and were are the facts to backup what you are saying here?

    To adress your and Maudi's queries.

    The rock armour was placed in front of the dump, in theory to act as a permanent barrier to prevent erosion exposing the dump.

    The problem -which WCC chose to ignore- was that structures like this dont work. Something that has been proven time and time again. What a structure like this does is not to dispel the erosive forces it merely deflects them to another point on the coastline. So what the rock armour has achieved is simply dispel the force to a point immidiately adjacent to the rock barrier. What then happens -and it is now very visible in John's photos- is that the cliff immediately adjacent to the end of the rock armour begins to erode at a much faster rate. We can now see the erosion getting in behind the rock armour and collapsing it onto the beach.

    The 30K M3 of "beach nourishment" that Durutti refers to was stated in WCC's EIS in 2007. That they only put 10K in place was confirmed by WCC in a recent letter to an Board Pleanala
    That they know they should be putting more in place is confirmed by the announcment by Cllr Ciaran Hayden about three weeks ago that more beach nourishment was being put in place. Something that has not-to date-happened.

    However in all this let us not forget. Sispar have not commited to stopping erosion . They only intend to slow it down. So what we are seeing -the collapase of the cliffs and the eventual exposure of the dump, is going to happen anyway if Sispar adhere to their original plans. Its just happening a lot faster than we thought.


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    #21
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    DD9090 wrote: »
    .... and were are the facts to backup what you are saying here?

    If you insist, I can post the documents which demonstrate that everything I said above consists of facts.

    One is the minutes of the HLC meeting where placing of the 10Km3 is announced — July 2008. The other is a letter of February this year in which WCC refers to the same 10km3 having been placed, with the remaining 20Km3 to be placed during the overall construction period, which now means as late as 2017.

    WCC promised the ABP oral hearing that all 30km3 would be placed during the period of construction OF THE BREAKWATERS, because their own experts advised that amount and because, as their own experts pointed out, the BREAKWATERS, not the housing and other elements, cause the erosion problem.

    Not to fulfil that promise for cost reasons; to abandon it cynically and to publicly announce they have abandoned it — what more evidence do we need that WCC and Sispar do not give a flying flute about the environment or our community's interests?


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    #22
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Just to add: the same letter from Sean Quirke of WCC to Bord Pleanala stated that the last beach survey took place in 2010. Another obligation abandoned — beach surveys were mandated to take place at six months intervals initially and then annually.

    So, no beach survey in 2011, none so far in 2012, no fresh nourishment placed despite announcing it via Cllr Hayden, erosion increasing at a dangerous rate. And WCC and Sispar walk away. Great!!

    What do their cheerleaders have to say? Either nothing at all, or that everything is fine and NAMA will fund the health centre — which has no planning permission yet! These people need to wake up and smell the coffee...


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    #23
    vinpaul
    Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭vinpaul


    Has anyone seen the erosion that seems to be taking place at the cove. Look over the wall in front of La Touche Hotel and you will see some evidence of land/rock movement. There is a crack in the wall that seems to have been caused by slippage of some of the rock below. Also noticed that some of the bigger rock formations seem to have shifted. This could result in closure of roadway and footpath if not attended to urgently. Severe stormy seas and easterly winds have altered the coastline all along seafront. Harbour development has definitely been a factor in the changing coastline.


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    #24
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    recedite wrote: »
    Won't be long now before that green fence goes swimming.
    You can see the last few silver coloured poles of the previous fence scattered down at the base of the cliff. That was last year's Sispar fence, which was out a few metres from the green one.
    F3 wrote: »
    I have a friend who has a lazer scanner, I'll try get him to do a sub-millimetre 3d lazer scan of the entire cliff face, and then compare every month against the actual rate of erosion against the 700mm per annum allowable. I don't see any beach norishment placed by Sispar yet, despite the recent press release by Hayden that it was to happen. Is it because he hasn't a clue what's going on, or is it because he knows exactly what is going on and just misinfoms people?

    You should do that ASAP, F3. Expert evidence will be of the essence. As Recedite says, the cliff is receding at an unprecedented rate. Looks like several years of the normal levels of erosion within a couple of months...


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    #25
    LEIN
    Moderators Posts: 9,936 ✭✭✭LEIN


    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    If you insist, I can post the documents which demonstrate that everything I said above consists of facts.

    I do insist.

    If you are going to make statements or accusations you will need to back it up with fact or I will have to remove your posts.


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    #26
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    DD9090 wrote: »
    I do insist.

    If you are going to make statements or accusations you will need to back it up with fact or I will have to remove your posts.

    1. I need some time to extract the relevant elements
    2. Your threat is unnecessary
    3. They are not accusations


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    #27
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    As INSISTED upon by DD9090, I have uploaded the relevant extracts as a photo album, with some difficulty. It is here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/album.php?albumid=2098 and there are six images total.

    You can also download a PDF file of the same material using this link: http://db.tt/ayn9BzR9

    The image below is the relevant extract from the minutes of the HLC meeting held on 15 July 2008 — almost four years ago. It is reporting an event which took place in May or June 2008.
    picture.php?albumid=2098&pictureid=12679


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    #28
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The Durutti Column wrote: »
    1. I need some time to extract the relevant elements
    2. Your threat is unnecessary
    3. They are not accusations


    Hi DC

    We don't answer any feedback regarding moderation as per the forum charter. You should be aware of this. You should be aware that the standard procedure for moderation feedback is ALWAYS to pm a mod and/or use the feedback/DRP forums. Please do not derail the thread by getting into an unnecessary moderation row.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #29
    Blanchflower
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Blanchflower


    In Section 5.5 "Nourishment principles" from the Brief of Evidence given at the Bord Pleanala Oral Hearing in March 2006 by Clon Ulrick BSc(Eng) CEng MICE MIStructE on behalf of Wicklow County Council and Sispar Ltd. it states the following:

    "5.5.1 Capital nourishment: It will be necessary to place some initial beach nourishment to minimise the impact of initial changes to the coastline during construction. It is proposed that 30,000 m3 will be placed during the construction of the breakwaters.

    5.5.2 Maintenance nourishment: It is proposed that up to 6,000 m3 per year will be placed from the Gap Bridge to 850 m further north. The 6,000 m3 provides for a factor of safety of 1.5 on the modelled erosion rates shown on Figure 8.

    5.5.3 Harvesting of up to 25,000 m3 of material accreted at the new north beach may be carried out over the 30 year concession period to further reduce peak erosion rate near the Gap Bridge."

    Sispar Ltd has only placed 10,000 m3 of the nourishment material even though the breakwaters have been completed for more than 2 years.

    So there you have it folks. Commitments were made by Wicklow County Council which have not been kept. The impacts of this failure to comply with planning obligations is now clearly evident in the unnatural levels of coastal erosion on the coastline adjacent to the new breakwaters.:eek:


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    #30
    Cheeky Chops
    Registered Users Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Cheeky Chops


    Or as my kid said to me "Where is Ireland disappearing to? Why did they take away our harbour and now our beach? They are mean people"

    Out of the mouth of babes eh ..

    Good works chaps on finding the detail in a swarm of bureaucracy.

    Thanks

    Cheeky.


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    #31
    The Durutti Column
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 274 ✭✭The Durutti Column


    Cheeky Chops wrote: »
    Or as my kid said to me "Where is Ireland disappearing to? Why did they take away our harbour and now our beach? They are mean people"

    Out of the mouth of babes eh ..

    Good works chaps on finding the detail in a swarm of bureaucracy.

    Thanks

    Cheeky.

    There's more to come, Cheeky. We are data-mining to beat the band... Watch this space, plus https://www.facebook.com/groups/greystones and http://greystonesharbour.org

    The sh1t is about to hit the fan — bigtime!!


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