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Should there be combined ladies and "less able men's" races?

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  • 27-02-2012 2:37pm
    #1
    QueensGael
    Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭


    I was all set to do the women's race this weekend. However, when I found out (Fri) that the men >50 were going to be lumped in with the women, it really put me off and ultimately I decided not to travel.

    I haven't done a whole lot of racing, but I'm not encouraged when I hear it's not even a women's race. When there's already plenty of men's categories available, why is there a need to put men in with the only (formerly) women's race?

    I'm not posting this to incite a riot, but genuinely interested to know if this is common and why it's necessary.


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    #2
    feck sake lads
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭feck sake lads


    no idea why the older men are allowed to enter why don't they just do the mens vet racec maybe its just to make up the numbers.:confused:


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    #3
    C3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭C3PO


    QueensGael wrote: »
    I was all set to do the women's race this weekend. However, when I found out (Fri) that the men >50 were going to be lumped in with the women, it really put me off and ultimately I decided not to travel.

    I haven't done a whole lot of racing, but I'm not encouraged when I hear it's not even a women's race. When there's already plenty of men's categories available, why is there a need to put men in with the only (formerly) women's race?

    I'm not posting this to incite a riot, but genuinely interested to know if this is common and why it's necessary.

    Certainly for me (an over 50 A4 guy!) the idea of a slightly slower and less aggressive race is very appealing! Riding in a big A4 field can be very intimidating if you're new to racing whether you're male or female! I'm assuming that the feeling was that the standard would be roughly similar between the Ladies and the Over 50s A4 Men which was borne out with yesterdays result! Is there always a seperate Ladies race?


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    #4
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,625 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    feck sake lads wrote: »
    no idea why the older men are allowed to enter why don't they just do the mens vet racec maybe its just to make up the numbers.:confused:
    They have introduced the "A4 over 50s" as a new category this year, mainly, as I understand it at the request of Cycling Ulster, who are running a league this year

    There is no other category of vets racing under the CI umbrella (other than vets championships, which I believe are for over 40s), although clearly the IVCA do run them. This was only open to men in the A4 category, or who had a club licence (and in the latter case there was no alternative, although A4s could have taken part in the separate A4 race)

    In this particular case it clearly did not make sense to put on a race for this category - there is limited road space available, and in the event only 3 men entered

    I would welcome comments from any ladies who did take part, as I thought it was a good race, I am led to believe that ladies racing tends to be a bit more tactical, but I don't think there is any harm in putting a few of the "less able" men into some of these races (and I'm not suggesting it for all ladies races). If the three men had gone up the road and had their own race I could understand the reservations. In fact two of them were dropped, and ladies took the first 2 places. I would ask any of the ladies participating if they felt intimidated by our presence?


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    #5
    feck sake lads
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭feck sake lads


    just clear this one up please. if a man wins in the ladies race does he ,get first prize or is it first man then first lady:confused:


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    #6
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    Beasty wrote: »
    I would ask any of the ladies participating if they felt intimidated by our presence?
    Im always intimidated by the presence of the Beast :D


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    #7
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,625 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    feck sake lads wrote: »
    just clear this one up please. if a man wins in the ladies race does he ,get first prize or is it first man then first lady:confused:
    To be clear it was not a ladies race - it was a combined "ladies and A4s over 50s" race

    As it was a combined event, they simply placed the first 6 (5 of whom were women) - guess I can lay claim to first man though ...


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    #8
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,625 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Posts moved from Traders Cup thread


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    #9
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Oeerr, take a look what happened in ART when someone asked about men in the Mini Marathon, it raised all sorts of hell
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056557547


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    #10
    jameverywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭jameverywhere


    Ugh. Why segregate by gender at all?

    They use weight classes in stuff like wrestling. Surely there can be some system devised to group cyclists by ability and level of fitness? That doesn't involve gender...?


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    #11
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,604 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    I seriously doubt if there were a combined racing category that the male uptake on it would be sufficient enough for it to be worth doing at all...

    Anything that could potentially decrease the number of women participating in road racing is a v bad thing....


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    #12
    jameverywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭jameverywhere


    I just don't like the assumption here that women are always worse than men...


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    #13
    feck sake lads
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭feck sake lads


    my take on it is leave the women to race there own races.. there will be a lot of very experienced over 50's in a combined race, guys that would have raced all there lives and know how to just sit there for the entire race then pop out at the last couple hundred meters. there only playing with the ladys at this time watch what happens when the season really gets going.


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    #14
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,527 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    RPL1 wrote: »
    Certainly for me (an over 50 A4 guy!) the idea of a slightly slower and less aggressive race is very appealing!

    Are you sure about that?


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    #15
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,021 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    jameverywhere wrote: »
    I just don't like the assumption here that women are always worse than men...

    There is no such assumption. The women are welcome to race in whatever senior category they are good enough for, AFAIK.

    I personally think that the "A4 is too hard for old men" argument says more about A4 than anything else. It's supposed to be an introductory category, but there is this idea that you should work your way up to open races by doing club races first. That results in a some very strong riders in A4 who should really be in A3 (including some outrageous sandbaggers who are just filling the trophy cabinets on the way back up to A1/A2), with the consequence that riders who are not served by a local racing club don't really get much of an introduction.

    I think C.I. have done a great job of clearly signposting A4 as a "just for fun" introductory cat, but you can take a horse to water...


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    #16
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users Posts: 8,604 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Lumen wrote: »
    I think C.I. have done a great job of clearly signposting A4 as a "just for fun" introductory cat, but you can take a horse to water...

    Dunno bout that, my impression from doing a couple of A4 races is that there are some v serious racers taking part and certainly the speed would be the same as A3...if slightly less agressive in there racing (but not by much)


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    #17
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Tenzor07 wrote: »
    Dunno bout that, my impression from doing a couple of A4 races is that there are some v serious racers taking part and certainly the speed would be the same as A3...if slightly less agressive in there racing (but not by much)

    I think that was his point, no?


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    #18
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    If each such race were officially labelled as a race for "ladies and less able men" then the problem may well resolve itself as the number of men willing to line up under the title of "less able" is likely to be in or around zero. To make certain just rename the category to "ladies and doddery old codgers".

    Incidentally, the standard of women's racing that I've witnessed in the past has been quite high. I don't see that an average over-50 male rider could join such a group and expect to dominate at all (mind you I haven't seen much women's racing in recent years, but I doubt the standard has dropped much, if at all). As Beasty mentioned earlier, it wasn't like he had it all his own way in the race by any means, and what's more from what I can gather (from someone else in Swords) Beasty is not what I would consider an average over-50 rider. That's not to say that it's a simple option to merge ladies and over 50's but it's not necessarily as unbalanced as some might think either.


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    #19
    killalanerr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭killalanerr


    It should be pointed out that the girls are able to go into any race depending on the lic they have,so a lady with an A3 could if they wished have entered the main A3 event they have the choice.
    As far as allowing the over 50s in with the ladies i feel their is a need for a class to fill the gap between full A4 and over 50s the numbers are small so the best way to facilitate this class is to allow them in with the ladies,indeed if it was to bring up the numbers it may even encourage clubs to run more combined +50/ladies races
    However their should be a points system and when a +50 reaches the required number of points they would have to move up to A4 races
    I still cant help thinking this is CI way of puting a bit of pressure on the vets


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    #20
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,725 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    jameverywhere wrote: »
    Ugh. Why segregate by gender at all?

    They use weight classes in stuff like wrestling. Surely there can be some system devised to group cyclists by ability and level of fitness? That doesn't involve gender...?

    They use gender as well as weight category in wrestling competition, at least they have in any I've entered. Same for boxing, judo and most other competitive martial arts. I'd guess that for the same amount of training average power output per kilo is not the same across genders, so it wouldn't really be fair.


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    #21
    jameverywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭jameverywhere


    I don't have any stats or anything but I would imagine that men and women are more equal than one would think on a bicycle.

    It should be ability based, tho, imho.

    "ladies and less able men" sounds like ladies = less able men. As in, they're less able by default. That's what it sounds like is all.


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    #22
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    jameverywhere wrote: »
    It should be ability based, tho, imho

    There is ability based licensing though. Women have the same licences as men, i.e. A4, A3, etc. And they can race against men every weekend if they want.

    However, nearly every single woman racer I know favours women's races. They'd do mixed races regularly, yes, but usually on days when there's no women's race and their season's goals are all based around women's races.


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    #23
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    For "less able" substitute "old".

    That doesn't really help, does it?


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    #24
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,625 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I really would appreciate it if some of the ladies who took part (who I know to be boardsies) had their say here (don't worry, I won't take any offence - I just think you guys have the most to contribute to this discussion). I suspect opinion is divided amongst them, but one thing I would add is I think that the occasional race like this, where the ladies are not swamped by riders of much higher ability, could be an ideal way for ladies to race a bit harder and improve their own ability, without having to enter Open Races (where men are much more likely to dominate)

    I also really hope ladies are not put off by men competing - in response to feck sakes lads' comment about there being lots of 50+ racers who have competed all their lives, I've only been competing for 2 years. There are a couple of other over 50 A4s in my club, but I suspect they would have struggled to stay with the bunch yesterday. I really don't think there are that many out there that fall into this category and would be competitive in such races (although there may well be a few more 50+ club racers who could hold their own)

    If I'd had previous experience of A4 racing (and was not on the new bike, and didn't have a cold, and ...;)) I may have been tempted to give the A4 race a go, but I really do not think there are many A4s in the over 50 age group that could dominate a race like that. Indeed (and I suspect this is down to the way the women's grading works) there were a number of A3 ladies in the race, who presumably would have needed to enter the main race if this particular option had not been available.


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    #25
    manwithaplan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭manwithaplan


    It's better (I think) that we all race on the same day, over the same course. There's more of a sense of occasion with bigger numbers and it's good for clubmates to support each other in their races.

    That puts a lot of pressure on race organisers though and compromises have to be made. I'm not sure if Cuchulainn CC's solution was the right one but fair play to them for trying it. It would be good if there were a fair mix of "road time" given to the various categories over the season and that clubs would look at the overall pattern of races in planning their events. This might mean that the A4-only race gets sacrificed some weeks to make way for a women's race etc. etc.


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    #26
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    Speaking as someone who is neither a lady nor an over-50 A4, but who was there to spectate at the race at the weekend I'd have to say that I side slightly with those who'd prefer these races to be women-only.

    The vets have their own governing body, their own very active league and a thriving community of racers. And good for them. When the time comes I hope to find myself among those ranks. If the guys in their 50s find the guys in their 40s too fast, well, take that up with the IVCA. I sympathise, I've been schooled by enough super-vets to know that the IVCA races must be no picnic. But just because the over-50s and the women face similar problems in mixed ability races doesn't necessarily mean that their problems will be solved by combining those two groups.

    The ladies, on the other hand, have less resources, fewer races that cater for them specifically and, crucially, fewer riders - I think that is in part down to the fact that they must usually race among the A4s where, jameseverywhere's high-minded but nonsensical thoughts on parity aside, women never feature in the inevitable sprint. You cannot deny biological reality.

    Racing among the A4s poses a considerable barrier to recruiting female riders from the leisure ranks to racing. And women-only racing might prove more appealing as well as allowing the strong and experienced women to really go head to head and race against each other properly without the influence, dare I say interference, or men racing each other in parallel.

    I say this because from what I saw even the modest male presence in the race on Sunday was very influential in the shape of the race as it progressed. I don't by any means intend to take away from the achievements of our dear Beast, he rode well and got a result against strong experienced riders, but he choose to prioritise beating his male rival above his own best interests against the women - as a consequence he rode harder on the front than anyone else in the final stages and then was (rightly) mugged in the finish by riders canny and strong enough to let him scupper his own chances in the sprint.

    That was interesting - but it was a race-within-a-race. That's what the women always seem to have to contend with. And what they're expected to find sufficient. Races-within-races.

    How about, for a few races a year, they get to race. Not to race-within-a-race. Just to race. I don't think that's much to ask.


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    #27
    jameverywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭jameverywhere


    jameseverywhere?

    My name's Jam.

    and y'know, I was just thinking, if women-only races encourage women to cycle more, then by golly let's have more.

    peace.

    EDIT

    in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a female leisure cyclist with bad knees. that is, someone who will probably never race, so.


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    #28
    feck sake lads
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,889 ✭✭✭feck sake lads


    jameverywhere wrote: »
    jameseverywhere?

    My name's Jam.

    and y'know, I was just thinking, if women-only races encourage women to cycle more, then by golly let's have more.

    peace.

    EDIT

    in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a female leisure cyclist with bad knees. that is, someone who will probably never race, so.
    Say Jam theres always touring;)


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    #29
    jameverywhere
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭jameverywhere


    feck sake lads wrote: »
    Say Jam theres always touring;)

    That's what I'm building up me knees for! Wanna do a three week all-Ireland trip in August if I can.


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    #30
    morana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭morana


    My personal opinion is that the womens races should be for the ladies. IF they wish to race with the men I think they should be able to which they currently can. We have to treat them with a little bit more care than other cats because they are growing. It would be great if we had Boot inn leagues spread around the country to allow women compete and then move onto National league if they wish.

    At Congress a vote was passed to allow over 50's racing as it is growing in Ulster so I guess thats why the race was held there yesterday. The IVCA is a great organisation but are mainly based in Leinster so they wont cater for somebody in Cork. Its my opinion that we, CI need a Veterans Commission. This should have an all ireland vets league consisting of 6 events in the main urban areas and possibly the entry of a team in European/World Masters events. They should also encourage the development of more IVCA type organisations in the provinces if the demand is there. However, the reason why we have no Vets races is because everything is now based on Ability hence the A in your category.

    What we do know though is the average age is 39 and therefore thats a lot of vets coming down the line.


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    #31
    fixie fox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 519 ✭✭✭fixie fox


    I'm a well-over-50 cat 4 cyclists.
    Bike racing is hard - there comes a point when you have to do a certain amount of training to compete. I have no great talent but I can race A4 because I train properly. I think any over 50 male or over 40 female can do that (given around 10% difference because of sex).
    You can't expect to compete if you don't train for bike racing. Also, I think it can take up to three years for people with no great natural talent to get into racing form.
    So, if u want to race u have to raise your game rather than looking for easier than cat 4 I think


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