Romans lack of Interest in ireland

dubhthach · 17-02-2012 3:25pm

slowburner wrote: »

It might not be on their RADAR but it is on their LIDAR
I wonder why the DNA work has not been carried out before?

Well historically it has been very hard to extract a viable sample, plus ruling out risks of contamination (From Archaeologists digging up remains etc. ) etc.

Been some major improvements over the last couple years, and I think way technology is going that in 10 years time it will be quite easy to extract viable samples. As it in 10 years time it will only cost about $250 - $500 to sequence a living persons entire genome given how prices are going (First human genome cost $3billion!)

UCC got a €1million grant for reasearch into ancient DNA (aDNA) there in late 2010.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/DepartmentsCentresandUnits/Archaeology/NewsItems/PrestigiousEuropeanFundingAwardforUCCArchaeologist/

Project is titled: "From the earliest modern humans to the onset of farming (45,000-4,500 BP): the role of climate, life-style, health, migration and selection in shaping European population history"

I know also of a "Roman DNA" project been driven by a Dr. Kristina Killgrove in the states:
http://romandnaproject.org/
http://killgrove.org/

nuac · 20-04-2012 10:14pm

Hi
Good thread, thanks to all.

Two points

1. I read somewhere that on the Inisjkea Islands off the Mayo coast there was a type of whelk produciing a purple dye much prized by Romans.

2. Investigations on Croagh Patrick show evidence of gold extracted there years before St Patrick got there. I understand gold can now be traced back to source - anythng come up on this re Croagh Patrick or other Mayo gold. There was a pathway from Croaghan in Roscommon in pagan times

slowburner · 21-04-2012 10:09am

That's interesting about the dye. Can you remember where you read it?
Interesting too that you should mention gold and 'Croagh' together.
'Croagh' is usually translated as reek, stack or staff, hence, 'St.Patrick's staff, reek or stack'. That doesn't tell us very much at all, but Croghan Kinsella on the Wicklow/Wexford border was extensively mined for gold, in antiquity (probably/possibly) and definitely up to the end of the 19th C. There was a gold rush there in 1765.
I suppose the point I'm after is; might mountain names which have 'Crogh' in their roots, be an indicator of the known presence of gold in antiquity?

That gold was mined in antiquity on this island is without doubt.
The Book of Leacan and the Annals of the Four Masters state for the year A.M. 3656 that,

It was by Tighernmas also that gold was first smelted in Ireland in Foithre-Airthir-Liffe. Uchadan, an artificer of the Feara-
Cualann, that smelted it. It was by him that goblets and brooches were
first covered with gold and silver in Ireland.

Foithre-aithir-Liffe is the main ridge of the Wicklow mountains.
The people of Leinster, were once know as Laighnigh-an-Óir, or the Lagenians of the gold.
G.Henry Kinahan (Scientific Proceedings of the Royal Dublin Society 1883) remarks:

As a proof that Ireland, in early historic years, was rich in
gold, Colonel Vallancey quotes the following passage from the
history of Caen in Normandy, by M. Delarue :
" The exchequer (i.e. of Caen) acquired very great consequence and
extent when our Dukes became masters of Anjou, Poitou, Aquitane, the city of Caen was then the seat of the Government, not only of those provinces, but also of Great Britain. The exchequer of England was annually exhausted to fill the coffers of that of Caen, and according to the registers kept in the Tower at London, we find that the treasury of Caen
received in one year, 23,730 marcs of silver sent by the treasury of
London, besides 400 marcs of silver and 200 ounces of gold sent by that
of Ireland—an enormous sum of money for those times."
Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald Barry), who died about A.D. 1224,
also states that Ireland abounded in gold.

Might we have had enough gold to invite the Romans? Probably not, but we almost definitely traded with them. We don't, as yet, know the scale of Hiberno-Roman trade.

nuac · 21-04-2012 12:53pm

SlowB

Cannot remember where I read about purple dye from the Inishkeas. I had a book about them which is mislaid at the moment and it may have been in that.

Croagh Patrick is also called the Reek locally.

It's ancient name was Cruachán Aigle =? Eagle mountain. In pagan times locals climbed it to worship "Cromdubh and his subgods 12". Legends of virgins being sacrificied. St Patrick simply christianised what was going on before. It was a night priolgrimage up to about 40 years ago, when Church and Gardai organised a change to daytime climbing. There used to be a lot of drinking involved, pubs open all night to refresh the pilgrims, and many yolung people climbing were doing more than just saying their prayers. Happy days ( or rather nights )

Various sacred wells etc on or about there are probably pre-christian. Archeological work has been done on CP by Morahan and others, and Harry Hughes Westport has written a history of CP.

As further evidence of gold there in ancient times the river flowing from that area is called Owenwee - Abhann Bhuí - Yellow river.

Substantial gold deposits indentified there in recent times by Burmin and other prospectors. Prospecting prohibited by Govt on religous and culural grounds. \

Enkidu · 21-04-2012 2:16pm

slowburner wrote: »

To which I add
From Pagan Ireland, An Archaeological Sketch. W.G.Wood-Martin. 1895
Cha deachaidh aon fhear a réamh go h-Ifrionne gan sé
phighiridh air faghail bháis dó

Do you know what dialect of Irish that is sourced from? It seems Northern, but there is some strange grammar there.

dubhthach · 21-04-2012 8:39pm

slowburner wrote: »

That's interesting about the dye. Can you remember where you read it?
Interesting too that you should mention gold and 'Croagh' together.
'Croagh' is usually translated as reek, stack or staff, hence, 'St.Patrick's staff, reek or stack'. That doesn't tell us very much at all, but Croghan Kinsella on the Wicklow/Wexford border was extensively mined for gold, in antiquity (probably/possibly) and definitely up to the end of the 19th C. There was a gold rush there in 1765.
I suppose the point I'm after is; might mountain names which have 'Crogh' in their roots, be an indicator of the known presence of gold in antiquity?

Croagh = Cruach in Irish
Croghan = Cruachán in Irish

án is a dimunitive, eg Cruachán = "small Cruach"

Check out Dineen's dictionary from the 1920's
http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/popup.php?find=Irish&lang=irish&page=0272-cros.png

Cruach Aoiligh (Aoiliġ) = "Manure heap" hah!

In "Focalóir gaoidhilge-sax-bhéarla" from 1768 they only have basic meaning of Crúach meaning a "Rick" (of hay, Turf etc.)
http://books.google.ie/books?id=C30CAAAAQAAJ&dq=Focal%C3%B3ir%20gaoidhilge-sax-bh%C3%A9arla%2C%20or%20An%20Irish-English%20dictionary&pg=PA141#v=onepage&q&f=false

DIL has the following:

1 crúach
ā, f. stack of corn; rick: frith ina cruaich (cruaith, v.l. ) isin gurt hé (of wheat), IT iii 196.z . bec leis dúnn ri cond crúaiche `when the corn-rick is roofed ', Met. Dinds. iv 160.215 . med do cruaiche, Laws i 134.13 Comm. dīre do daise .i. it cruaich arba, 170.27 Comm. mo cheas beach mo chruach mo chrann (of Christ), Dán Dé xxiv 18 . luath a cruach ó Chailligh Dé `quickly sinks her cornstack ', Aithd. D. 1.9 . cruach na cliabh arbha, FM iii 288.7 . Also heap, conical pile: crícha cech cóicid fo chrúaich marked by a stone rick , Met. Dinds i 14.23 . cruacha dhóibh ga ndoinndeargadh (piles of corpses), Aithd. D. 20.27 . biáidh an foghmhar na chruaich = a heap , Is. xvii 11 . sreath cláraigh . . . / . . . mun gcruaich `round its top ' (of castle), DDána 119.7 . Transfd. c.€ sgeimhle ó chrúas do chaingne, IGT Decl. ex. 1373 . Mountain, hill: lucht na cruaiche críne (of the Túatha D.D.), ZCP xiii 361 § b . imasoich crúas ciuil croich (as.), RC v 202.3 `vigour of music surrounds the hill (?)', Ériu xvii 90 § 8 . lengait eóin ciúin crúaich `gentle birds leap upon the hill ', Four Songs 20 § 2 . cruach, cnoc, carn, Eg. Gl. 161 .
In nn. loc. ar mullach Cruaiche Mhártain, CF Eg. 66 . Especially of Croaghpatrick: argain na Cruaiche, RC xvii 413.24 (Tig.). dia mbai Pátric . . . / for Crúaich, Met. Dinds. iii 378.6 . Cf. attágar techt hi cruaich cruind, / druing cen crabad, Trip.² 1315 . an chruach ┐ an críoch i dtarla, PBocht 10.28 . See Hog. Onom.

In plant-name: cruach Patraic gl. plantago, Arch. i 330 § 1 . sugh teinegail . . . cruaiche Padruig, Rosa Ang. 102.17 . 110.3 .

Compd. crúach-bás `heaped slaughter', Met. Dinds. iii 242.14 . crúachbhás .i. deargbhas, O'Cl.

2 crúach
o, ā (1 crú). Earlier cruäch. gory, bloody: mo corpán crūäch, Fianaig. 10.3 . do cholg . . . / cruoch, LU 10363 . adnaig tar fót c.€ away from the scene of the wounding , Críth Gabl. 53 . bráen c.€ `gory rain ', RC xxvii 300.1 . fo duilnib sleg coícrind crūach (seven sylls.) `bloody spears ', Hail Brigit 10 . aill is tóla catha crúach, ZCP xi 110 § 30 . isí mór caem cruach high-coloured (of Andromache), BB 427 b 7 . or' ort Gola cruach golach bloodthirsty, SR 5921 .
Perh. in n. pr.: idal and / diarbo chomainm in Cromm Crú- aich, Met. Dinds. iv 18.3 . d'adrad Chruimm Chrúaich, 20.36 .
As subst. slūagadach Liphi, crūach Clóitigi (of king Aed Finnlíath), ZCP xii 235 § 51 .

Dineen has Crúach for bloody/gore I assume the origin is probably to do with stacks of dead (say after a battle)

slowburner · 21-04-2012 9:07pm

This is interesting stuff.
I think the 'heap, conical pile' definition probably fits the bill. Both mountains are this sort of shape.
I wonder if the Sugarloaf was once known by a crúach prefix?

Hmmm, the discovery and working of gold is first attributed to Tighernmas, who was slain during Samhain, while worshipping Crom Cruach.

slowburner · 21-04-2012 9:15pm

Enkidu wrote: »

Do you know what dialect of Irish that is sourced from? It seems Northern, but there is some strange grammar there.

That would not be a strong point of mine, Enkidu, but Martin was from Sligo

Translation of the Irish quote from W.G.Martin:
'no man ever went to hell without sixpence at the time of his death.'
Martin believed that the Roman burials near Bray which contained the coins, were the result of sailors burying the dead after a shipwreck. The Romans of course, believed it was essential to leave coins on the corpse to pay the grim ferryman of the Styx, or so goes the theory.

dubhthach · 21-04-2012 9:38pm

slowburner wrote: »

This is interesting stuff.
I think the 'heap, conical pile' definition probably fits the bill. Both mountains are this sort of shape.
I wonder if the Sugarloaf was once known by a crúach prefix?

Hmmm, the discovery and working of gold is first attributed to Tighernmas, who was slain during Samhain, while worshipping Crom Cruach.

I believe the Sugarloaf is Ó Cualann in Irish, this reflects the tribal/tuatha boundaries, as it was part of the territority of Cualann. Thence the older name for Bray (not Bré) is Brí Chualann, as far as I know the Brí bit is cognate with the words Brigantia and obviously Brighid -- implies heights/exalted one etc.

In other words Bray = "Heights of the Cualann"

pedroeibar1 · 21-04-2012 11:21pm

nuac wrote: »

Cannot remember where I read about purple dye from the Inishkeas. I had a book about them which is mislaid at the moment and it may have been in that.\

Dornan’s book is the only one I've read on the Inishkeas – it is very comprehensive and I don’t remember anything about purple in that – I recall that it has no index so I cannot look it up.
Taken from memory, (read in ‘The Great Sea’ by David Abulafia), the Phoenicians got their name from purple, the Greek word for which is phoenos. They built their wealth on it, Tyre, etc; it had a major influence in the trade and economics of the Med. Purple dye comes from a Mediterranean sea snail. Purple became a ‘Royal’ colour because of its cost – it took thousands of snails to make a gram of dye. Had there been a dye industry there based on purple, it would have been so iportant it would have been well-recorded. I’m not aware that the snail lives in colder waters, not sure how it would fare in Mayo!

nuac wrote: »

Croagh Patrick is also called the Reek locally.

It's ancient name was Cruachán Aigle =? Eagle mountain. \

I’ve always believed that Cruach is a pointed hill, meall is often used for a rounded one. Fiolar is Irish for eagle, aigle is French; FWIW, and OT, the French clothing company Aigle (known to all shooting sportsmen especially for their jackets & boots) was founded by an American, who used his national bird as a name for his new company in France.

pedroeibar1 · 22-04-2012 10:46am

Correction on the dye industry -
Wiki has a piece here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whelk#cite_ref-6

It seems that the Irish whelk has similar properties to its warm-water cousin:
The dog-whelk can be used to produce red-purple and violet dyes, like its Mediterranean relations the spiny dye-murex. In Ireland, on the island of Inishkea North, Co. Mayo, archaeologists found a whelk-dyeing workshop, dated to the 7th century AD, complete with a small, presumed vat, and a pile of broken-open dog-whelk shells.
Source given as
Henry, F., 1952. A wooden hut on Inishkea North, Co. Mayo (Site 3, House A). Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 82: 163-178.

Solair · 22-04-2012 10:57am

I'd say it was largely timing and lack of serious maritime ability, the Mediterranean is like a warm swimming pool compared to the Irish Sea and North Atlantic which are proper seriously rough scary seas.

Crossing to Ireland wasn't easy in those days, unless you were hardened sea fairers like the Vikings were.

Also, the only short crossing, was in hostile Scotland.

They got to Britain at a time when them empire was already overstretched and beginning to in decline.

nuac · 22-04-2012 11:26am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Correction on the dye industry -
Wiki has a piece here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_whelk#cite_ref-6

It seems that the Irish whelk has similar properties to its warm-water cousin:
The dog-whelk can be used to produce red-purple and violet dyes, like its Mediterranean relations the spiny dye-murex. In Ireland, on the island of Inishkea North, Co. Mayo, archaeologists found a whelk-dyeing workshop, dated to the 7th century AD, complete with a small, presumed vat, and a pile of broken-open dog-whelk shells.
Source given as
Henry, F., 1952. A wooden hut on Inishkea North, Co. Mayo (Site 3, House A). Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland, 82: 163-178.

Thanks Pedroeiber

the reference I recall mentioned that the purple dye was exported from the Inishkeas to Rome ( for the Togas ?) so it must have been earlier than the 7th Century

pedroeibar1 · 22-04-2012 12:04pm

Solair wrote: »

..... the Mediterranean is like a warm swimming pool compared to the Irish Sea and North Atlantic which are proper seriously rough scary seas.

Clearly you never sailed in the Med! Levanters, Poniente's, Tramontanas, Mistrals, etc. Not to mention the williwaws that come out of nowhere. In a full gale the Med has a short steep sea, rather like the Irish Sea; the Atlantic has a much longer wavelength that is easier on ship and crew alike.

Enkidu · 22-04-2012 2:12pm

slowburner wrote: »

That would not be a strong point of mine, Enkidu, but Martin was from Sligo

Thanks, I was wondering with Cha. The rest of the grammar was Connacht, but the Cha made it look Northern.

dubhthach · 22-04-2012 4:35pm

Enkidu wrote: »

Thanks, I was wondering with Cha. The rest of the grammar was Connacht, but the Cha made it look Northern.

Given the transitional nature of North Mayo dialects (also tied in from historic migration from Donegal). It wouldn't surprise me if the Sligo dialectic were quite close to those of Donegal. After all we do see plenty of times with the Ó Domhnaill doing "power-projection" into Sligo/North Connacht during medieval era.

grenache · 25-04-2012 3:33am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I’ve always believed that Cruach is a pointed hill

That was always my understanding of the word too - my home village in West Limerick is Croagh. Now, the Irish for it is either Cruach (little hill or ridge) or Cróch (meaning saffron or gold). The village itself is in the flattest part of the Golden Vale, so i don't believe it was named after a some local non existant hill. So either buttercups were prominent in the area or else there was some serious hoards of gold in the village abbey.

slowburner · 25-04-2012 10:44am

grenache wrote: »

That was always my understanding of the word too - my home village in West Limerick is Croagh. Now, the Irish for it is either Cruach (little hill or ridge) or Cróch (meaning saffron or gold). The village itself is in the flattest part of the Golden Vale, so i don't believe it was named after a some local non existant hill. So either buttercups were prominent in the area or else there was some serious hoards of gold in the village abbey.

Croagh is not a million miles from Ardagh, of chalice fame.
Across the estuary too, near Newmarket on Fergus there was the Mooghaun hoard. This was probably the largest gold hoard ever found on this island. It was found when workers were digging for the railway between Limerick and Ennis in 1854. Very little of it survived in its original form: most was sold and melted down. It was said that workers were seen leaving with wheelbarrows full of gold. Four men were reputed to have gone to America with £6,000 pounds worth of gold each - a tidy sum in 1854. Only 29 of the original 146 pieces displayed by the Royal Irish Academy in that year, survive.

slowburner · 25-04-2012 11:18am

Tighernmas (sp.?) is also credited with being the first to dye cloth purple.

'It was Tighearmas first established in Ireland the art of dying cloth of purple and other colours, and the ornamenting of drinking cups, and goblets, and breast pins for mantles, of gold and silver.'

{From a poem by 'Flan of the Monastery of Bute', in the 'Book of Lecan' circa 1050.
In R. Rolt Brash. Precious Metals and Ancient Mining in Ireland. 1878}

I seem to remember that the reason for the conical nature of these mountains is to do with the hardness of the their constituent bedrock - quartz, and quartz is generally associated with deposits of gold.
Tighernmas, gold, Cruagh/Croagh, purple dye and the Phoenicians.
Very interesting indeed.

pedroeibar1 · 25-04-2012 12:05pm

slowburner wrote: »

Four men were reputed to have gone to America with £6,000 pounds worth of gold each - a tidy sum in 1854. Only 29 of the original 146 pieces displayed by the Royal Irish Academy in that year, survive.

Interesting story, no doubt much exaggerated. In 1854 the average weekly wage of an agricultural labourer was about 10 shillings*; a general labourer got about one third more and a clergyman got about £270 p.a**. On that basis £6k is the equivalent of 22 years salary for the latter, or several lifetimes for a labourer. The gold sum is easy. In 1717 Sir Isaac Newton, as master of the Mint, set the gold price at £3.17s. 10d. per troy ounce and it remained at that price (+/-) for a couple of centuries. If the Claremen each had £6k, it amounted to 1538 troy ounces or almost 48 kilos each. Not far off Euro 3 million in today’s money.

Terrible what happened at the RIA.

*Department of Employment and Productivity 1981 British Labour Statistics: Historical Abstracts, 1886-1968
**Williamson 1982 The Structure of Pay in Britain, 1710-Research in Economic History, 7.

grenache wrote: »

..........my home village in West Limerick is Croagh. Now, the Irish for it is either Cruach (little hill or ridge) or Cróch (meaning saffron or gold). ..........So either buttercups were prominent in the area or else there was some serious hoards of gold in the village abbey.

Saffron is from the stigma of the crocus flower, from the Greek ‘krokos’ meaning saffron or yellow. With 3 stigmas per flower it takes 75,000 flowers (225,000 stigmas) to make one pound of saffron. ( See http://faculty.ucc.edu/biology-ombrello/pow/saffron.htm ). As they grow on dry hillsides I’d go with your buttercups;)

slowburner · 25-04-2012 1:35pm

I don't know how exaggerated the story is, but here's a screenshot of the original passage, it's from a communication to the Ulster Journal of Archaeology, vol ix, p.42 made by John Windele, I think in the year of the hoard's discovery.
The amount of priceless prehistoric/historic artifacts which have been melted down over the years is absolutely mind boggling.

grenache · 27-04-2012 4:06am

slowburner wrote: »

Croagh is not a million miles from Ardagh, of chalice fame.

That's fascinating about the hoard in Newmarket, those Clare boys don't miss a trick. It's funny you should make mention of Ardagh, my mother hails from there. My father always teases her that she "moved to the civilised world" when she came to Croagh. To which she always replies "yeah but like the monks you needed to go to Ardagh to strike gold"

slowburner · 06-05-2012 11:44am

nuac wrote: »

It's ancient name was Cruachán Aigle =? Eagle mountain.

A similar early reference to Croagh Patrick here below - Cruachangeli. From The Works of Gildas and Nennius. Trans. J.A.Giles. 1841

books?id=3R1mCE7p44MC&pg=RA1-PA31&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2-YT3x8CS15xCziEkl5t2BlYQzJg&ci=95%2C518%2C750%2C876&edge=0

nuac · 06-05-2012 12:22pm

Thanks for the quotation Slowburner.

About the figures Clew Bay is reputed to have 365 islands. Would have to count a lot of rocks as islands to get to that figure.

Tradition locally is that he did consecrate a bishop at Aughagower, which was then the nearest centre to Croagh Patrick. Aughagower was on the old pre-christian route from Croaghan Roscommon

Romans lack of Interest in ireland

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