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Entrapment? - either way it's ridiculous..

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  • 07-12-2011 7:40am
    #1
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭


    ...that court time and garda time are taken up by this.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1207/1224308683120.html

    Long story short.

    21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

    The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

    First of all, is that not entrapment? And secondly, if 2 people are consenting adults and are happy to enter in to a financial agreement for basic pleasure, do they really deserve a record and their names in the paper?

    (Obviously it's just the mens' names in the paper in this instance, but you know what I mean).

    I'm all for the protection of women and obviously trafficking needs to be prevented as much as possible. That's why this trade should be taken off the streets and regulated.


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    #2
    MrJoeSoap
    Registered Users Posts: 15,117 ✭✭✭✭MrJoeSoap


    kraggy wrote: »
    ...that court time and garda time are taken up by this.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1207/1224308683120.html

    Long story short.

    21 men charged and plead guilty to soliciting females on various streets in Limerick.

    The women they were soliciting were gardai posing as prostitutes.

    First of all, is that not entrapment? And secondly, if 2 people are consenting adults and are happy to enter in to a financial agreement for basic pleasure, do they really deserve a record and their names in the paper?

    (Obviously it's just the mens' names in the paper in this instance, but you know what I mean).

    I'm all for the protection of women and obviously trafficking needs to be prevented as much as possible. That's why this trade should be taken off the streets and regulated.

    Not happy having your name in the paper, no? ;)


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    #3
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    It's a stupid moral law that attempts to regulate the behaviour of consenting adults.

    Oh and you're paying for the privilege too whether you agree with it or not.


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    #4
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    Yeah, fine them 450 euro each, that'll cover the police and court costs...


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    #5
    MarkR
    Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    Not entrapment if the gardai merely provided a favourable opportunity for the guys to get caught.

    Loved the way they listed out the names of the streets that prostitutes can be found on! *Throws notebook behind couch*


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    #6
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    Total entrapment. I presume the cops were young healthy specimens instead of the usual human detritus you'd see walking streets in which case the crimes might never have occurred.


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    #7
    Sid_Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    I don't know the detail but it is my understanding that paying for sex isn't strictly illegal, it's curb-crawling or soliciting women on the street for sex which is.


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    #8
    Frank Black
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭Frank Black


    If you believe that consenting adults should be able to enter a financial agreement on sex - like I do, then you could say it's entrapment and wrong.

    However, if you don't want to live in a city that has streets crawling with prostitutes, pimps and clients - like I don't.

    Then it's perfectly acceptable what happened.


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    #9
    mambo
    Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭mambo


    Curious line from
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/men-caught-in-prostitution-sting-by-undercover-gardai-enter-guilty-pleas-2956079.html

    "The judge heard from various solicitors representing all accused. They said their clients were sorry for their actions and had no previous convictions. Some were said to be self-employed while others were said to be deeply embarrassed." :confused:


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    #10
    MarkR
    Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    It's not entrapment. It's giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Find a law book and look up entrapment.

    Although I don't like citing wikipedia as a source, they do explain it well..
    In criminal law, entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.[1] In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal liability. However, there is no entrapment where a person is ready and willing to break the law and the government agents merely provide what appears to be a favorable opportunity for the person to commit the crime. For example, it is not entrapment for a government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informant or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person (see sting operation). So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.
    On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime had it not been for inducement or persuasion on the part of some government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. For example, if a defendant had purchased illegal drugs from an undercover officer, he may be found not guilty if it is determined that the officer initiated the transaction or aggressively pressed the accused to complete it.
    Entrapment holds[citation needed] if all three conditions are fulfilled:
    The idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.
    Government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same as persuading them to commit that crime.
    The person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before interaction with the government agents.
    Depending on the law in the jurisdiction, the prosecution may be required to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant was not entrapped or the defendant may be required to prove that he was entrapped as an affirmative defense.


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    #11
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,368 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    No it is not entrapment as the offense is to proposition a person to have sex for money. If the gardai went up to them and said I will have sex with you for money and the person said yes that would be entrapment.


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    #12
    Dancor
    Registered Users Posts: 3,623 ✭✭✭Dancor


    http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_13/sp_1309_clip07.jpg

    BUSTED!!!!


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    #13
    foxyboxer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭foxyboxer


    Jaysus, would they not just crack one off to a copy of Nuts?


    :pac:


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    #14
    BraziliaNZ
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,671 ✭✭✭BraziliaNZ


    what a waste of time and money. Prostitution is never going to go away I'm afraid, unless we have some kind of mass spiritual awakening some day. This is unfair and pointless.


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    #15
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,647 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    latenia wrote: »
    I presume the cops were young healthy specimens...
    I doubt that very much.


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    #16
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Well I'm not self employed, does that mean I am deeply embarrassed?


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    #17
    danniemcq
    Registered Users Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    shoulda asked to film it,

    be classed as making a porno movie not picking up a hooker and therfore be immune from prosicution and if you are brought to court or whatever you can then sue the state for defaming your character.


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    #18
    carfiosaoorl
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭carfiosaoorl


    No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.


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    #19
    tunney
    Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    latenia wrote: »
    Total entrapment. I presume the cops were young healthy specimens instead of the usual human detritus you'd see walking streets in which case the crimes might never have occurred.

    Entrapment is an American concept.


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    #20
    kincsem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    Gardai on the streets. That's a first. :rolleyes:


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    #21
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    latenia wrote: »
    Total entrapment. I presume the cops were young healthy specimens

    Ban Garda Murphy on the job.


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    #22
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    6 out of the 21 names are Eastern European/Russiany. Interesting. Either they must be more used to paying for s&x, just thought they were far enough from home to get away with it, or are even less likely to be in regular relationships that the Irish guys (for whatever reason).

    Hmmmmmm.


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    #23
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    carfiosaoorl wrote: »
    No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

    Eh source?

    What makes you think that? Yes it happens but most of the time the woman is on the street of of her own choice. They're mostly Irish on the streets.

    It's the likes of prostitutes in apartments that are more likely forced to work. It's an enclosed space booked out for a period of time by a pimp.


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    #24
    carfiosaoorl
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭carfiosaoorl


    kraggy wrote: »
    Eh source?

    What makes you think that? Yes it happens but most of the time the woman is on the street of of her own choice. They're mostly Irish on the streets.

    It's the likes of prostitutes in apartments that are more likely forced to work. It's an enclosed space booked out for a period of time by a pimp.

    You can say they are there by choice but nobody would prostitute themselves for the fun of it they do it because they dont have another choice. What source do you need? Common sense should tell you that. Any guy that goes with a prostitute and thinks that she is completely up for it is delusional.


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    #25
    Mindkiller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,200 ✭✭✭Mindkiller


    MarkR wrote: »
    It's not entrapment. It's giving people enough rope to hang themselves. Find a law book and look up entrapment.

    Although I don't like citing wikipedia as a source, they do explain it well..

    So wait, when Bodie pleaded entrapment in season 3 of The Wire and got off, was it really entrapment?


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    #26
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    I'm not sufficiently familiar with the law in Ireland, but wonder what the position would be if fellows who proposition women on the street for sex begin by asking the woman: "Hi, are you a Garda, by any chance?" If she then replies "No", he can continue by asking her what she'll charge him for a ride, etc. ---

    Would it be entrapment on the part of a Garda to deny what she was a police officer/decoy and then allow the prospective "client" to continue propositioning? If it emerges that it is, it won't take long for fellows looking for a bit of jiggy-jiggy to learn to ask that question every time.;);)

    This could easily be tested by fellows using their mobile phones to record the conversation, or by investigative journalists who might prefer the Gardai to put their time and effort into investigating crimes like burglaries that actually have clear victims.:)

    Does anyone know what the legal position might be?:confused:


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    #27
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    carfiosaoorl wrote: »
    No its not entrapment. Also you cant call it an agreement between two concenting adults because most of the time it isnt. The vast majority of women who prostitute themselves dont want to do it and many of them as doing it against their will.

    That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin


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    #28
    carfiosaoorl
    Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭carfiosaoorl


    Sin City wrote: »
    That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

    I dont listen to religious fanatics. Maybe there are a tiny handful of high class escorts who dont mind the job but I dont really believe that but either way the guys in question were caught curb crawling.


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    #29
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    carfiosaoorl wrote: »
    Sin City wrote: »
    That may be true of street walkers but not true.of escorts who do choose the job freely . don't believe all the turn off the red light bull**** , religious fanatics who to demonise the sex industry claiming that all sex workers are held against their will. Read turn off the blue light, the sex workers side of the coin

    I dont listen to religious fanatics. Maybe there are a tiny handful of high class escorts who dont mind the job but I dont really believe that but either way the guys in question were caught curb crawling.
    dont get me wrong kerb crawling is wrong but most high class escorts work freely many with options and choices. Many are.highly educated but know.they can make a.fortune.doing.this.tax free


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    #30
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    I both agree and disagree with what the gardai did.

    Prostitution in Ireland is not a crime but soliciting in public, this I agree with and cracking down on it needs to be done.

    Name and shaming those who tried it? Bloody joke, give them a link to some Irish Escort service, make them donate the money and leave them the **** alone.

    I actually know one of the men named there, his life is going to be ruined for breaking a minor law most people don't even know exists.


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    #31
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    If you ever find me using a prostitute, feel free to print my name in the paper.
    Prostitution might seem like a lesser crime to some sleazebags but it's one of the worst crimes against women.


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