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Renunciation Log.

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  • 21-05-2011 12:52pm
    #1
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭


    I have opened a similar thread on the Christianity forum, and am intending this to be a log of my formal renunciation of my inclusion in the Catholic Church, as a member of the LGBT community and a woman with self respect.

    In this thread there will be a step-by-step guide for how to do this, as I go throughout the process. I know that many LGBT people are seeking the same throughout the world right now.

    I might also document my feelings and attempts to reconcile myself with this decision. It means going against everything I believe and was taught since early childhood, and is not a decision that will be taken lightly.

    I just can't hack it any more. It's been increasingly difficult to cope with this stuff.

    I'm currently stuck in correspondence with my parish and the organizers of World Youth Day 2011 as to whether I can be permitted to attend.

    Enough is enough.

    I don't know whether the stance of other Christian denominations is different as regards LGBT people. But I can no longer subscribe to this one.

    Comments/suggestions welcome.


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    #2
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    No comments, no suggestions, but *hugs*. I know this can't be easy for you.


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    #3
    BanzaiBk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭BanzaiBk


    Hey Asry, I often see you post quite knowledgeably on the Christianity forum so I can appreciate that this is a tough decision for you to make.


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    #4
    alexjk
    Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭alexjk


    Good luck with that. I don't know how hard it is to renounce your inclusion in a religion for somebody that had faith when I never had any. I had the envelope with my letter of defection sealed and ready to go when the church decided to change the rules. I wonder if it's worth sending anyway.


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    #5
    Sir Ophiuchus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Sir Ophiuchus


    *hugs* I hope everything goes well; I know this must have been (and remains) a difficult journey for you. I would love an opportunity to follow your journey, so thank you for deciding to share some of it with us.


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    #6
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    Thank you :)

    I hope to make this a case in point as regards this issue. I don't know whether I should also document the reactions of the Christian community as I am in communication with them, on the boards.ie forum. This is probably a very giant "no, no" and in this case I will leave it out.


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    #7
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Reading your posts on the Christianity forum and here, it is clear that this isn't easy for you.

    (((hugs)))

    I wish you all the best of luck with it.

    Speaking for myself, I, too, am anxious to renounce my baptism, so I was very disappointed to see that the church seems to have made that ever more difficult. It seems that, as things stand, the only effective way I have of renouncing my baptism is through excommunication. I'd rather not have to take such extreme measures.

    For me, the difficult part of it all is that I still have a felt sense of the divine, so I've had to find other ways of expressing that - ways that are truly respectful towards everyone and everything and that aren't exploitative of me. It's a struggle, to be sure, with many false dawns.

    As for documenting the reactions of the christian community - this is your log, so you make that call. Though I'd suggest that rather than document the reactions of the community, it might be more useful/helpful to document your reactions to their reactions.

    Anyway, once again, good luck, and thanks for sharing this with us.


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    #8
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Asry, having seen much of your posts both in the Christianity forum and in the LGBT forum although I might disagree with some of what you have had to say I have gained a lot of respect for you over the last while and I wish you the very best.


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    #9
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I should reaaaallllllllly be taking two buses to Beaumont hospital to see my great uncle right now but it's all windy and it's my day off and I don't want to! /tantrum.

    As for renunciation/excommunication, I need to check the veracity of an article I found on it, posted on the Australian Atheist Foundation website. To paraphrase:

    a) "As of 1983 there are nine canons under which excommunication can take place. Five of them only apply to priests or bishops." [ok that wasn't a paraphrase at all] :D



    b) 1 - attack the pope. Obviously this has criminal repercussions so em, no thanks. No jailbait for Asry just yet.

    c) 2 - desecration of the host. Again. Probably involving criminal damage and kind of really not on my list of options.

    d) 3 - Abortion. I don't really want to get knocked up and get it aborted just so that I can get kicked out of the club. But apparently that extends to advocating abortion, aiding women to get abortions (by what? giving them info or monies for the flight?).

    e) 4 - Apostasy, heresy, or schism. Here's the big one. Embrace another religion, like Islam or Judaism. But I don't want to be Muslim or Jewish. "It is your task to convince the church that you, as an atheistic secular humanist, (or whatever) are in the same 'non-Catholic' category as a Muslim or Buddhist. In your favor is a nineteenth century ruling which stated that ":those who make a public renunciation of all religion may be subsumed under this category [apostates].""

    f) action to take: You will need to write a letter to your current parish. It should include the necessary information to meet all of the criteria for deserving to be excommunicated. You may also present this to your birth parish, if this is convenient.


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    #10
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    philologos wrote: »
    Asry, having seen much of your posts both in the Christianity forum and in the LGBT forum although I might disagree with some of what you have had to say I have gained a lot of respect for you over the last while and I wish you the very best.

    Thank you Philo :) I respect you very much also. At least you seem to be sane and rational about things. That'll be the Protestantism! :D /appropriate pirate-related arm action.

    I would warn you to be careful over there in your defense of my choice to leave as you might get ripped apart.


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    #11
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Hey. Remind me this evening, I have a friend who did something similar. I'll see what info I can get, if you want...


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    #12
    Killer_banana
    Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭Killer_banana


    *hugs* I know this can't be easy for you and I hope it all works out.


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    #13
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    I've nothing really to say but good luck, I can imagine this isn't easy for you.


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    #14
    Conor30
    Registered Users Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Conor30


    Asry wrote: »
    I have opened a similar thread on the Christianity forum, and am intending this to be a log of my formal renunciation of my inclusion in the Catholic Church, as a member of the LGBT community and a woman with self respect.

    In this thread there will be a step-by-step guide for how to do this, as I go throughout the process. I know that many LGBT people are seeking the same throughout the world right now.

    I might also document my feelings and attempts to reconcile myself with this decision. It means going against everything I believe and was taught since early childhood, and is not a decision that will be taken lightly.

    I just can't hack it any more. It's been increasingly difficult to cope with this stuff.

    I'm currently stuck in correspondence with my parish and the organizers of World Youth Day 2011 as to whether I can be permitted to attend.

    Enough is enough.

    I don't know whether the stance of other Christian denominations is different as regards LGBT people. But I can no longer subscribe to this one.

    Comments/suggestions welcome.

    I wonder what all the numerous gay priests would do if it were decided that gays couldn't attend world youth day!!


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    #15
    hypersquirrel
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭hypersquirrel


    I come from a Church of Ireland family and my grandfather and other close relatives were reverends in the CoI. Personally I used to be very flippant towards religion having seen first hand the nasty underbelly of dirty politics that goes with all organisations. However a few years ago I was a mess. I had just started my postgrad at college, my grandmother had died 3 after my 21st birthday and I had been through two armed robberies in the space of a couple of months. I was scared of my own shadow and still hadn't come to terms with my sexuality either. I felt completely and utterly lost.

    It turned out to be a great turning point for me though. It made me reevaluate my belief system altogether. Where before I would have simply stated there was no God. I began to develop my own perspective on it. Frankly I don't think I could even put my current beliefs into words. I don't believe in God as portrayed in the Bible or even as a creator but I found a belief that gave me strength when I thought I had none.

    I can't pretend to know what it feels like to turn away from the church and it's teachings because I never followed them but I can say that when you sit down and think through it all you will find something that you know in your heart to be right whether it be a slight adjustment to the teachings of the Catholic faith or a complete overhaul of your faith. It is a great weight off your shoulders but also a great comfort to have something that you can believe in without those niggling doubts. If everybody's relationship with God is unique then surely everybody's interpretation of their faith should be too.

    I'm extremely tired when I'm writing all this so I have no idea if I'm even making sense but long story short, I admire your courage and hope it works out as well for you as it did for me. It's not easy but nothing good ever is.


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    #16
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    ah but you see, there it is. Homosexual tenancies aren't a sin, but homosexual sex is. So long as you remain celibate all your life, God loves you.

    Thank you for your support everyone, tonight at the drinks meetup and also on this thread. It really, genuinely means a lot.

    My boyfriend is 100% behind me. He's atheist, and through knowing me and my rants about bible translations and doctrine that he's realized that the RCC is one of the most damaging organisations on earth as regards human cultural evolution. He wondered where we'd be if the Dark Ages hadn't happened.

    But yes. There is a heavy weight on me. The things I will be denied have started crushing down on me - the sacraments of marriage, last rites, the baptism of my child (unlikely because I really don't want a child) etc etc. Easter services. Even the reflex of blessing myself as I pass a church.

    Also it's occurred to me that I'm going to have to come out as LGBT all over again. My family will ask why, and I'll have to tell them. I've only told my mother, because I don't believe my sexual proclivities are anyone's business but my own. She didn't take it well.

    The Christians on the other forum, for the most part, have resorted to treating me like a child.

    There have been PMs of support, silent support, from people, and for which I am grateful.

    As my friend said in a text message today - it comes down to what you can and cannot live with.


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    #17
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    hypersquirrel wrote: »
    I can't pretend to know what it feels like to turn away from the church and it's teachings because I never followed them but I can say that when you sit down and think through it all you will find something that you know in your heart to be right whether it be a slight adjustment to the teachings of the Catholic faith or a complete overhaul of your faith. It is a great weight off your shoulders but also a great comfort to have something that you can believe in without those niggling doubts. If everybody's relationship with God is unique then surely everybody's interpretation of their faith should be too.

    I'm extremely tired when I'm writing all this so I have no idea if I'm even making sense but long story short, I admire your courage and hope it works out as well for you as it did for me. It's not easy but nothing good ever is.


    Thank you, tired squirrel :) I should be in bed also. It's going to be difficult. I don't think I really realised how much until I actually began to think about it. I will require a complete overhaul of the way I view myself, my sexuality, the world and the people in it.

    But in that, there is a strange joy. I might begin to be able to live my live as the person I am, the person God made, rather than the person so many other people seem to want me to be.

    I admit that I am afraid. I know that I could be sanctioning my own condemnation into eternal hell, but to be frank, it's not hell I'm worried about right now. It's my life. I'm coming to think that the mental ill-health issues I have been experiencing for over a decade might very well come down to what I have been trained (brainwashed?) to believe about myself.

    There comes a time when you need to let go.

    Even today I've been flicking through moments of terror where I wonder what the hell I'm doing, and of course I won't leave the Church, and of course I will subjugate myself to the RCC's interpretation of the will of God.

    If I do send that letter, and it's done and over, and I am outcast from divine grace then that's something I'm going to have to deal with when it happens.


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    #18
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Asry wrote: »
    The Christians on the other forum, for the most part, have resorted to treating me like a child.

    A few of the Christians treat the other Christians like children at the moment as well. It's highly unfortunate. I fully support your decision to take stock and reconsider where you're at. Some of the stuff that has been posted there wouldn't be supported by the moderators on the forum and I'm really hoping something can be done to bring the forum back to normality (that isn't the way things usually are over there) over the next while.


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    #19
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I can understand absolutely that this is a divisive issue, and people sometimes don't really know what side to stand on. I do think as well that when people have the answer to the right way to live, they tend to lord it over other people. It's human nature, over anything really, not just religion.

    I do think things are settling down. I have recieved apologies and explainations of behaviour, and I'm willing to accept that. Once I understand where someone's coming from, even if I don't agree, I can empathise.

    It's easy to believe that somebody doesn't know what they're talking about if they disagree strongly with you.


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    #20
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    It's threads on everything Asry. There are a small extreme RCC minority who are making things very difficult to discuss for the other RC's and the non-RC's who want to discuss amicably with each other. It's absolutely tragic really and we had a similar incident last summer.


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    #21
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    Ah sure. I'm not going anywhere or backing down, so they can be bolshy all they want but it's not going to change anything. :) I'm sure it'll settle down on its own.


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    #22
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Just saw this on a friend's facebook page, and I thought I'd share it here -

    Truth is not doctrine, truth is a person, love is not a concept, love is a person, the word of God is not a book, the word of God is a person....are you following things or a person?

    Lovely to meet you last night, Asry. :)


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    #23
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Asry wrote: »
    The things I will be denied have started crushing down on me - the sacraments of marriage, last rites, the baptism of my child (unlikely because I really don't want a child) etc etc. Easter services. Even the reflex of blessing myself as I pass a church.
    I presume you know that there are Christian churches which are completely accepting of LGBT people? The one that comes to mind is the Unitarian Church on St. Stephen's Green - I've been to some of their services, and they are well known in the trans community as the church that holds our annual transgender day of rememberance. I don't know if that is of use to you - but I thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know about it.


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    #24
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    Truth is not doctrine, truth is a person, love is not a concept, love is a person, the word of God is not a book, the word of God is a person....are you following things or a person?

    I'll have to start thinking maybe in terms of something other than...the will of God. Except not. Because truth is doctrine. Or is it not? Ahhh I don't know. Doctrines and edicts and ritualistic symbolism.

    I've been sneakily reading the bible at work. I have a teeny tiny one I carry in my bag. Hopefully the others don't think I'm one of those weirdo religious fantatics. :rolleyes:


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    #25
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I got the goahead to go to World Youth Day! There was a whole email all talking about the costs of the trip and stuff and how I'd have to pay for myself and the church couldn't fund it because I'm registering late and no mention of the LGBT thing at all!

    Sooooo. Maybe I ought to go? To see? It might make me feel better. I could so see me attempting to turn the innocent young Jesusfreaks to the dark side though...:cool:


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    #26
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I was chatting to the editor of a magazine I do features for sometimes, and he's interested in sending me to World Youth Day on a press pass! Provided I write an article as a gay person at Jesuscamp. Which is .... em. I'd have to like talk about being gay. My MOM might see it (she knows, but she don't like it). But it's too good an opportunity to pass up.

    I mean, that'd be free registration. And maybe free accommodation? Probably not though. Plus I'd get paid for the article and then get to see what it would be like there and how I'd feel and deal with it and stuff. Putting myself to the test, as it were.

    I've never actually met other believers in real life before. Everyone's either just a mass-at-Christmas Catholic or just plain angry about how horrible the RRC has been perceived to have been in this country. So I wonder what being surrounded by 1.5 million Catholics under 30 would be like. And being gay at the same time.

    But I don't think for a second that I'll be the only one out of all of those people who's LGBT.


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    #27
    diddlybit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭diddlybit


    Asry wrote: »
    I was chatting to the editor of a magazine I do features for sometimes, and he's interested in sending me to World Youth Day on a press pass! Provided I write an article as a gay person at Jesuscamp. Which is .... em. I'd have to like talk about being gay. My MOM might see it (she knows, but she don't like it). But it's too good an opportunity to pass up.

    That would be awesome...and brave. :eek:


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    #28
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I could just not tell her about it but announce the article on my blog and if she sees it she sees it, and if she doesn't, she doesn't.

    I just really don't want to get into this discussion with her because she's quite Catholic in a traditional way and pretty much thinks I'm not entirely human and an evil creature with no morals. And I got enough of that when I lived with her, so I don't want to be inviting narky brain-searing phonecalls from Spain if I can help it.

    She's going to find out though, if I go through with the renunciation. Like if I ever have children and don't baptise them (which hurts my chest to think about it but OK). It's really, really unlikely I'd ever have kids though, in fairness, so it's just me worrying about something that won't really happen.


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    #29
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    I went to mass this morning, and to be honest it really did confirm to me that it was time to leave. I don't believe in transubstantiation. I don't believe that Mary remained a virgin after she gave birth to the Christ.

    Funnily enough, the homily was about obeying God's commandments. I think it's interesting though. Jesus never said anything about women, or about LGBT people. It was St Paul, in his letters, who advised the early churches that homosexuality was wrong.

    And in Leviticus (the famous book with all the rules)...that's in the Old Testament. And like when Jesus came, apparently all those rules fell away, and he gave us just one, new commandment - love one another as I have loved you.

    So, should a Christian just follow the words of Christ? And not the words of the people around him?

    As for making a formal renunciation though, it could prove complicated. I was born 3 months premature, and was baptised Catholic in the hospital because they thought I would die. But then when I was ok, I had a formal Protestant christening. So...is it first come first served or what? And then which parish would I write to? And where the hell would I find my baptism certificate?


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    #30
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Asry wrote: »
    As for making a formal renunciation though, it could prove complicated. I was born 3 months premature, and was baptised Catholic in the hospital because they thought I would die. But then when I was ok, I had a formal Protestant christening. So...is it first come first served or what? And then which parish would I write to? And where the hell would I find my baptism certificate?
    I think you should p1ss off both denominations, just to be safe ;):D

    Thanks for the update. Hope you are keeping well - hope this stuff is getting easier for you.


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    #31
    Asry
    Registered Users Posts: 883 ✭✭✭Asry


    LOL! yeah, I should. I'm starting to think maybe I don't need a church at all. I would miss the other people though and the homilies and stuff.

    When he said 'do this in memory of me', as regards the bread and wine...maybe he just meant eating? We eat every day, so every time we eat we do it with thanks to Jesus for our continued life and faith? Or something?

    ...That sounds really lame now that I write it out :rolleyes:


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