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Copyright Legalities

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  • 10-04-2011 12:44pm
    #1
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭


    My husband's photograph is being used on a certain website to promote an annual public event
    The event is a profit making venture
    The photographer who took the photos will not let us have a copy

    What is the story legally here?
    Does a person not have some legal right to their own image??

    Not according to the photographers on boards :(
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056234906

    Surely every tom dick or harry with a camera doesn't have the right to take photos of anyone and everyone without the consent of the subject and the photographer retains copyright??


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    #2
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    My husband's photograph is being used on a certain website to promote an annual public event
    The event is a profit making venture

    This is not the information you posted in the photography section of boards, and does have a drastic change to your query.

    But, the photographer does still retain copyright and has no obligation to give you a print of the photo.


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    #3
    not even wrong
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭not even wrong


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    What is the story legally here?
    Does a person not have some legal right to their own image??
    The photographer created the image and therefore owns the copyright outright.

    You could look into the area of "personality rights" which gives you certain rights to prevent commercial exploitation of any photo taken of yourself -- this is independent of copyright. However this is more for the area of misrepresentation (e.g. I take a photo of Brian O'Driscoll on the street and put it in ads for my energy drink to imply he endorses it; he has no comeback under copyright law but he still has personality rights to his own image) so will probably not help you get an extra copy.

    Why can't you just right click->Save As anyway?


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    #4
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Paulw wrote: »
    This is not the information you posted in the photography section of boards, and does have a drastic change to your query.

    But, the photographer does still retain copyright and has no obligation to give you a print of the photo.

    I didn't think it would make a difference sorry :o
    not even wrong wrote: »
    The photographer created the image and therefore owns the copyright outright.

    You could look into the area of "personality rights" which gives you certain rights to prevent commercial exploitation of any photo taken of yourself -- this is independent of copyright. However this is more for the area of misrepresentation (e.g. I take a photo of Brian O'Driscoll on the street and put it in ads for my energy drink to imply he endorses it; he has no comeback under copyright law but he still has personality rights to his own image) so will probably not help you get an extra copy.

    Why can't you just right click->Save As anyway?
    Can't right click & save because its a slideshow on the website rather than an individual jpeg

    I just can't get why the photographer won't give us a copy of a single bloody picture of my husband that we liked & wanted to frame :mad:


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    #5
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    I didn't think it would make a difference sorry :o

    It actually makes a massive difference.
    angelfire9 wrote: »
    Can't right click & save because its a slideshow on the website rather than an individual jpeg

    I just can't get why the photographer won't give us a copy of a single bloody picture of my husband that we liked & wanted to frame :mad:

    Right click and save, would actually be a breach of copyright, which the photographer can then take civil action against you for.

    He probably won't give you one because it costs him - time, paper, ink, postage, etc.

    Why not offer to buy a print of the image from the photographer?


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    #6
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Can you really use someone's image to advertise an event without their consent?


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    #7
    mari2222
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mari2222


    suggest you write to the photographer and state you are withdrawing consent to any publicisation of your image.


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    #8
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    k_mac wrote: »
    Can you really use someone's image to advertise an event without their consent?

    Amazing isn't it? :cool:
    Paulw wrote: »
    It actually makes a massive difference.

    Right click and save, would actually be a breach of copyright, which the photographer can then take civil action against you for.

    He probably won't give you one because it costs him - time, paper, ink, postage, etc.

    Why not offer to buy a print of the image from the photographer?

    Ok what is the massive difference?
    I don't get it :(

    As for paying for the photo I wanted a digital copy not a print so that I could get it put on a canvass
    How much realistically is it going to "cost" him to email me a digital copy of a picture??


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    #9
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    Ok what is the massive difference?

    It makes a difference in how the image may be used. The image should not be used for advertising.
    angelfire9 wrote: »
    As for paying for the photo I wanted a digital copy not a print so that I could get it put on a canvass
    How much realistically is it going to "cost" him to email me a digital copy of a picture??

    As a photographer, I would charge a lot more for a digital image than I would for a print. This is due to having less control over how the image can then be used. You have to consider other costs a photographer has - equipment, insurance, transport, etc

    So, again, I would agree with the photographer, and I wouldn't give you a digital image.


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    #10
    not even wrong
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭not even wrong


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    Can't right click & save because its a slideshow on the website rather than an individual jpeg
    Flash decompiler.
    Paulw wrote: »
    Right click and save, would actually be a breach of copyright, which the photographer can then take civil action against you for.
    Except the odds of being sued for saving an image off a public website for personal private use are exactly zero. For a start, the photographer has no way of knowing it's happened.


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    #11
    WIZE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭WIZE


    take a print screen then paste into paint and save as jpeg


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    #12
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Paulw wrote: »
    It makes a difference in how the image may be used. The image should not be used for advertising.

    As a photographer, I would charge a lot more for a digital image than I would for a print. This is due to having less control over how the image can then be used. You have to consider other costs a photographer has - equipment, insurance, transport, etc

    So, again, I would agree with the photographer, and I wouldn't give you a digital image.

    The photographer was paid by the event organisers to take photographs at the 2010 event for use on the website to advertise their 2011 event
    He most probably took 100's of pictures of which about 100 are on the website

    His costs "equipment, insurance, transport etc" are paid for over the course of a years business in the case of equipment probably more than 1 year

    All I want is ONE digital photograph of my husband for the purposes of mounting it via canvass at our home

    I still don't see why
    A) He has a problem with this
    B) Why I should pay for it

    Presumably my husband has the right to ask for the picture to be removed from the site? Or does the photographer's right to advertise his services supersede my husband's right to privacy?




    By the way are there any legal eagles able to definitively comment on this??


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    #13
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    I still don't see why
    A) He has a problem with this
    B) Why I should pay for it

    Presumably my husband has the right to ask for the picture to be removed from the site?

    By the way are there any legal eagles able to definitively comment on this??

    To answer the last question first - legal advice is not permitted, as per the forum charter.

    He has a problem with it due to loss of potential revenue, and loss of control over his copyright work (the image).

    You should pay because the photographer owns the copyright, and has a right to charge for his work.

    Your husband can request the photo to be removed from the site. But, that too will depend on the circumstances of how/where the image were taken. It's not clear cut black and white.

    Even if the image is removed from the website, you still won't get anywhere with the photographer.


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    #14
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Paulw wrote: »
    To answer the last question first - legal advice is not permitted, as per the forum charter.

    He has a problem with it due to loss of potential revenue, and loss of control over his copyright work (the image).

    You should pay because the photographer owns the copyright, and has a right to charge for his work.

    Your husband can request the photo to be removed from the site. But, that too will depend on the circumstances of how/where the image were taken. It's not clear cut black and white.

    Even if the image is removed from the website, you still won't get anywhere with the photographer.

    I am aware of the charter and am not seeking legal advice is not like i'd actually go to the bother of suing anyone over this
    I am looking for a legal opinion there is a difference

    As a photographer you are obviously entitled to your opinion that does not mean that i have to agree with it :rolleyes:


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    #15
    mari2222
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mari2222


    googled this:



    Secret filming in a public place can in principle be unlawful. Photographers must be aware that this could result in successful claims for damages. The practise of secret filming raises serious issues around liability for common law breach of confidence.

    The photographer will have to show that any interference with individual privacy rights was no more than was necessary and could not reasonably have been avoided by e.g. asking the individual for consent. The privacy rights of the individual are present prior to any broadcasting or future ‘embarrassment ‘ that may occur.


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    #16
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    mari2222 wrote: »
    googled this:

    Secret filming in a public place can in principle be unlawful. Photographers must be aware that this could result in successful claims for damages. The practise of secret filming raises serious issues around liability for common law breach of confidence.

    The photographer will have to show that any interference with individual privacy rights was no more than was necessary and could not reasonably have been avoided by e.g. asking the individual for consent. The privacy rights of the individual are present prior to any broadcasting or future ‘embarrassment ‘ that may occur.

    What jurisdiction does this google article apply to? Certainly doesn't seem to apply in Ireland, since there is no specific direct right to privacy in a public area.

    I'm not aware of any case-law in Ireland for liability for common law breach of confidence against a photographer for taking a photo in public.

    Different rights apply in different countries. France, for example, is very strict on person privacy rights, while Ireland is not.

    Also, from the sound of things, the photographer was not "secretly filming" but was overtly taking photos.


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    #17
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    What about Data Protection?
    From http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/A_guide_to_your_rights_-_Plain_English_Version/858.htm
    You have the right to data protection when your details are:

    held on a computer;
    held on paper or other manual form as part of a filing system; and
    made up of photographs or video recordings of your image or recordings of your voice.


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    #18
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    What about Data Protection?
    From http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/A_guide_to_your_rights_-_Plain_English_Version/858.htm

    So, how would you apply Data Protection to this situation?

    It would still not give you a right to a digital copy that you can use to print on canvas.


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    #19
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Conversely I don't see what gives a photographer the right to use a person's image to promote a business and event without their permission

    We are going round in circles....


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    #20
    mari2222
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭mari2222


    an EU court on human rights has declared that taking someone's photo can violate their privacy. In the past, laws in Europe have said that you can't necessarily publish a photo of someone without their permission, but merely taking the photo was allowed. No longer. In the press release about the decision, the court explained its reasoning:
    "The Court reiterated that the concept of private life was a broad one which encompassed the right to identity. It stressed that a person's image revealed his or her unique characteristics and constituted one of the chief attributes of his or her personality. The Court added that effective protection of the right to control one's image presupposed, in the present circumstances, obtaining the consent of the person concerned when the picture was being taken and not just when it came to possible publication."


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    #21
    Paulw
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 13,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    angelfire9 wrote: »
    Conversely I don't see what gives a photographer the right to use a person's image to promote a business and event without their permission.

    I have never stated that I believe that the photographer has the right to use the image to promote a business. However, the photographer isn't using the image, the business is. It is up to the business to ensure it has the correct releases to use the image.

    But, there is still no reason at all why the photographer should give you a free digital copy of the image.
    mari2222 wrote: »
    an EU court on human rights has declared that taking someone's photo can violate their privacy.

    While this is an EU court view, it has not been passed in Irish law. Irish law does not currently see privacy in the same way.


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    #22
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Paulw wrote: »
    But, there is still no reason at all why the photographer should give you a free digital copy of the image.

    mmmm.... because he is making money from the publication of an image which he did not obtain a release for??:rolleyes:


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    #23
    234
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭234


    mari2222 wrote: »
    an EU court on human rights
    Do you mean the European Court of Human Rights?


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    #24
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    if it was as you say a picture taken at an event, the terms and conditions of you entering the event probably state that pictures may be taken for promotional use or some such. Is it possible that the event promoters in fact own the image having paid for it and you could contact them?


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    #25
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    Weepsie wrote: »
    if it was as you say a picture taken at an event, the terms and conditions of you entering the event probably state that pictures may be taken for promotional use or some such. Is it possible that the event promoters in fact own the image having paid for it and you could contact them?

    It wasn't a competition so I doubt those kind of T's & C's apply
    More along the lines of attending a concert or taking part in a Paddy's Day parade

    Anyway I have contacted the organisation on who's website I saw the pic so we'll see what they say


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    #26
    jhegarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,434 ✭✭✭jhegarty


    Paulw wrote: »
    So, how would you apply Data Protection to this situation?

    It would still not give you a right to a digital copy that you can use to print on canvas.

    http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Accessing_Your_Personal_Information/14.htm

    "Under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts, you also have a right to get a copy of your personal information. This applies to all types of information -for example, written details about you held electronically or on paper, photographs and CCTV images. You are also entitled to know where the information was obtained, how it has been used and if it has been passed on to anyone else. "


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    #27
    PCPhoto
    Registered Users Posts: 6,584 ✭✭✭PCPhoto


    Hold on a second ..... I might be wrong here but ..... whats wrong with paying the photographer for the image ?

    The law (as I understand and know it) - as a full-time working professional press photographer.

    (in simple english)
    if you are in a public place - you can be photographed
    (everyone has a bloody camera these days...and theres loads of CCTV around too so you are practically always caught on camera)

    OP.... would you expect the photographer to give you a copy of the photograph if you owned a pet pig who had won an award at a local fair ? ...... would you expect to get a digital copy of the image to do what you wanted with the image ?

    if the image was used to advertise the "local fair" the following year - would you be proud that your pet pig's image was used or would you demand the image be removed ?

    very similar scenario .... completely different way of looking at it ..... Personally I think you should just pay the photographer IF you want a copy of the image..... why not goto the "event" again this year and take the same photograph yourself ...problem solved !!! ...you can create the same image without the cost of purchasing one from someone who has probably spent thousands on equipment, learning etc etc.


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    #28
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    jhegarty wrote: »
    http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Accessing_Your_Personal_Information/14.htm

    "Under Section 4 of the Data Protection Acts, you also have a right to get a copy of your personal information. This applies to all types of information -for example, written details about you held electronically or on paper, photographs and CCTV images. You are also entitled to know where the information was obtained, how it has been used and if it has been passed on to anyone else. "

    if you went down this road, you would probably get a low res watermarked version, you wont get the original file.

    I don' think your grasping the whole issue of the photographers legal rights. You seem to have no value on the role of the photographer and feel entitled to the fruits of his labour because you want a photo and dont want to pay for it...


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    #29
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    if you went down this road, you would probably get a low res watermarked version, you wont get the original file.

    I don' think your grasping the whole issue of the photographers legal rights. You seem to have no value on the role of the photographer and feel entitled to the fruits of his labour because you want a photo and dont want to pay for it...
    When the OP is the subject of the photo I think he is entitled to feel such a way.


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    #30
    melekalikimaka
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,686 Mod ✭✭✭✭melekalikimaka


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    When the OP is the subject of the photo I think he is entitled to feel such a way.

    not at all i disagree completely. Having studied photography law, and photography ethics in college, i personally feel the op has an issue with self entitlement, not uncommon these days, if you want the photo you pay for it, end of, no two ways about it.


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    #31
    angelfire9
    Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    melekalikimaka wrote: »
    if you went down this road, you would probably get a low res watermarked version, you wont get the original file.

    I don' think your grasping the whole issue of the photographers legal rights. You seem to have no value on the role of the photographer and feel entitled to the fruits of his labour because you want a photo and dont want to pay for it...

    Not necessarily I just don't see why he should expect payment from me for a photograph that he has already been paid for when he didn't even ask the subject of the photo if he minded the pic being taken!


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