Alarm monitoring over UPC

KoolKid · 23-02-2011 9:08pm #1

Here is one thats coming up a lot on the Home Security Forum.
Is there any good reason why Eircom are telling people people alarms can not be monitored by UPC if they switch their phone provider?

eircom: Tony · 24-02-2011 1:30pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Here is one thats coming up a lot on the Home Security Forum.
Is there any good reason why Eircom are telling people people alarms can not be monitored by UPC if they switch their phone provider?

Hi Koolkid
The origin of this information may be that PhoneWatch is delivered across analogue lines and not, as of yet, across digital service. It is possible with the addition of a GMS unit to deliver Phonewatch across the majority of providers digital services.
Hope this answers your question.
Tony

KoolKid · 24-02-2011 4:30pm

Hi Tony,
All alarm dialers are basically an analogue phone. The line out that UPC gives connects to a standard analogue phone.So all alarm dialers will connect without any problem to a UPC line. To my knowledge there are no plans to change this system from any manufacturers .
GSM Units are no longer considered secure by most monitoring stations,and most installers, with the easy availability of GSM jammers.
Can you tell me why Eircom recommend these and yet refuse connection to UPCs line?

eircom: Tony · 24-02-2011 5:50pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Hi Tony,
All alarm dialers are basically an analogue phone. The line out that UPC gives connects to a standard analogue phone.So all alarm dialers will connect without any problem to a UPC line. To my knowledge there are no plans to change this system from any manufacturers .
GSM Units are no longer considered secure by most monitoring stations,and most installers, with the easy availability of GSM jammers.
Can you tell me why Eircom recommend these and yet refuse connection to UPCs line?

Hi Koolkid
not sure that eircom recommend these, I can look into that for you. My last post stated that, 'It is possible with the addition of a GMS unit' to deliver analogue Phonewatch across digital services'.
Obviously anyone wishing to arrange Phonewatch accross either an eircom or non eircom line would be advised to speak with our Phonewatch team who would be able to advise on each individual case.
Will see if I can get more info for you.
Tony

KoolKid · 24-02-2011 6:25pm

Thanks for that Tony, to clarify my questions here is an example:

A customer rings PW and says they want to switch their phone service to UPC.
PW refuse to connect to UPC and offer the GSM alternative.
My questions here are why are PW refusing to connect to a perfectly good line yet willing to connect a GSM service with known issues?

eircom: Tony · 25-02-2011 12:04pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Thanks for that Tony, to clarify my questions here is an example:

A customer rings PW and says they want to switch their phone service to UPC.
PW refuse to connect to UPC and offer the GSM alternative.
My questions here are why are PW refusing to connect to a perfectly good line yet willing to connect a GSM service with known issues?

Thanks Koolkid, yep that helps. Will get back to you later today or early Mon.
Tony

Cathmandooo · 01-03-2011 12:02pm

I'm very interested in this topic too and look forward to eircom's answer on the matter.

eircom: Tony · 01-03-2011 2:17pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Thanks for that Tony, to clarify my questions here is an example:

A customer rings PW and says they want to switch their phone service to UPC.
PW refuse to connect to UPC and offer the GSM alternative.
My questions here are why are PW refusing to connect to a perfectly good line yet willing to connect a GSM service with known issues?

Hi Koolkid
have confirmed this with the PhoneWatch team, If a customer wished to change over to UPC and wished to keep PhoneWatch service;
1. customer can keep the eircom line ( along with other provider) and continue with PhoneWatch. Moving to UPC does not exclude the customer.
2. Customer can drop eircom phoneline and go with the GSM option, which connects to the digital service of other provider.

If customer disconnects the eircom line and therefore from eircom network, we can no longer deliver our security service on that cancelled line, (even though 'perfectly good'). We cannot offer the package accross the other providers (digital) service.

To get any more specific info on a particular case or if you wish to discuss this with a member of there technical team you would have to call 1850500900 and take option 1. They would be happy to have someone within their technical team to explain more.
Tony

KoolKid · 01-03-2011 4:16pm

Sorry Tony ,this is just stating Eircoms policy , which I already know, it doesn't answer the question as to WHY?
Is this a ploy to try get people to keep the Eircom line?

Questions are still the same?
Why must people keep the Eircom line when the UPC line will do the same job?
Why are Eircom refusing to use the UPC line, yet offering a GSM solution which most in the industry agree is unreliable?

eircom: Tony · 01-03-2011 4:46pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Sorry Tony ,this is just stating Eircoms policy , which I already know, it doesn't answer the question as to WHY?
Is this a ploy to try get people to keep the Eircom line?

Questions are still the same?
Why must people keep the Eircom line when the UPC line will do the same job?
Why are Eircom refusing to use the UPC line, yet offering a GSM solution which most in the industry agree is unreliable?

Hi Koolkid
My apologies if last posts did not answer this question and yes I would agree that to an extent that I am stating policy here.
But this is not an eircom policy to get people to keep the eircom line. It is more to do with the fact that UPC digital service is not compatible with eircom phone watch product, in a manner similar to not being able to get SKY on a UPC box.
I understand your point that there is a perfecty good digital UPC connection but we cannot deliver our product over that line. This may be something that will change in future but would mean both providers agreeing to adapt a 'protocol' allowing this.
Although I am sure you may request more info on this I would have to advise that you contact our PhoneWatch section 1800500900 and the UPC team also.
If you do get more info on this I would be interested in seeing this.
Tony

KoolKid · 01-03-2011 5:38pm

eircom: Tony wrote: »

But this is not an eircom policy to get people to keep the eircom line. It is more to do with the fact that UPC digital service is not compatible with eircom phone watch product, in a manner similar to not being able to get SKY on a UPC box.

Again , I am sorry Tony but this is not true.
Eircom PW alarms use a standard digi dialer.
A standard dialer is basically a standard phone. A standard phone will work with a UPC line & a standard alarm dialer will also ,
To give another example, I had Eircom previously, I now have UPC . If I plug my Eircom phone into UPC line it will work perfectly.
If I connect my Alarm to a UPC line it works perfectly

eircom: Tony wrote: »

I understand your point that there is a perfecty good digital UPC connection but we cannot deliver our product over that line.

Technically there is no difference between one dialer and another. Can you explain why PW believe this wont work.

eircom: Tony wrote: »

This may be something that will change in future but would mean both providers agreeing to adapt a 'protocol' allowing this.

What protocol would need to be adapted here.???

All dialers use the following protocol options
Fast Format
Contact ID
SIA
SIA extended.
I have no problem using these over UPC lines.
I also note no answer as to why Eircom offer GSM as a solution when there are known issues & risks re jamming.
When offing to provide monitoring over GSM are customers made aware of the risks.
Many other stations now only accept GSM connections with a signed disclaimer from the customer. Is this Eircoms policy.?

fred funk }{ · 01-03-2011 6:45pm

Eircom install HKC alarms. I have connected a HKC alarm to a monitoring centre through UPC. To say they wont work is wrong.
We also dont install GSM diallers anymore because they are so easy to disable, infact my monitoring company don't even except them anymore as they are so insecure.

This stinks of eircom trying to hold onto the lines.

No1J · 01-03-2011 8:14pm

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Eircom install HKC alarms. I have connected a HKC alarm to a monitoring centre through UPC. To say they wont work is wrong.
We also dont install GSM diallers anymore because they are so easy to disable, infact my monitoring company don't even except them anymore as they are so insecure.

This stinks of eircom trying to hold onto the lines.

I have an alarm (HKC) installed by a company who also install for PW. When I asked them could I change to UPC but keep the monitoring they said that it could not be done, would have to get the GSM. If this is just a protocol/legal thing.
1. can it be done and approx how much?

2. would it affect insurance after a break in?

Thanks in advance.

KoolKid · 01-03-2011 9:12pm

The company is simply doing what Eircom tells them to.
It is not a protocol thing
It is not a legal thing
Your insurance states you have a monitored alarm, thats fine, it is immaterial to them who the provider is. As long as the company and the monitoring station are up to the required standards.
Why they are recommending the GSM s is really baffling me..
Stations are turning down connections using GSMs yet Eircom are recommending them over a landline??

No1J · 01-03-2011 11:13pm

Thanks for confirming what I am reading between the lines. that being the case are there reg companies that can do this reconnection and could you give an approx price for a 6 year old alarm system.

Thanks.

eircom: Tony · 02-03-2011 1:24pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Again , I am sorry Tony but this is not true.
Eircom PW alarms use a standard digi dialer.
A standard dialer is basically a standard phone. A standard phone will work with a UPC line & a standard alarm dialer will also ,
To give another example, I had Eircom previously, I now have UPC . If I plug my Eircom phone into UPC line it will work perfectly.
If I connect my Alarm to a UPC line it works perfectly

Technically there is no difference between one dialer and another. Can you explain why PW believe this wont work.

What protocol would need to be adapted here.???
All dialers use the following protocol options
Fast Format
Contact ID
SIA
SIA extended.
I have no problem using these over UPC lines.
I also note no answer as to why Eircom offer GSM as a solution when there are known issues & risks re jamming.
When offing to provide monitoring over GSM are customers made aware of the risks.
Many other stations now only accept GSM connections with a signed disclaimer from the customer. Is this Eircoms policy.?

HI Koolkid
I have contacted PhoneWatch 3 times in regards to your query. Three times I have been advised that we cannot deliver this service over other providers digital lines and have passed on the information given me.
Given your obvious knowledge and interest in this I would have to again suggest that give the PhoneWatch technical or sales staff a call on 1850500900.
I have spoken to the technical staff there who were only too happy to advise me. As you have much more knowledge on this particular subject I imagine you could extract more relevant information from them.
If you wish to post your finding here I would be interested in reading them.
Regards
Tony

KoolKid · 02-03-2011 1:34pm

Equally I , and others have stated it can be done.
I would ask that Eircom either acknowledge it can be done or else call us liars.
Are Eircom not willing to state here why they are saying it can't?
Also no answer as to why they are offering GSM as a solution when there are serious issues re jamming.
Can we take from this that there is a policy on this forum to refer people to phone numbers if there is something that Eircom don't wish to answer here??

eircom: Tony · 02-03-2011 2:53pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Equally I , and others have stated it can be done.
I would ask that Eircom either acknowledge it can be done or else call us liars.
Are Eircom not willing to state here why they are saying it can't?
Also no answer as to why they are offering GSM as a solution when there are serious issues re jamming.
Can we take from this that there is a policy on this forum to refer people to phone numbers if there is something that Eircom don't wish to answer here??

Hi Koolkid
absolutely not, as is obvious throughout the many questions within this forum and this particular issue. I have answered your questions and stated the reasons why. You have not accepted my responses I therefore offered you the PhoneWatch number as an alternative source of information.
I also stated that any findings you may have would be welcome on this forum.
This is an open forum and eircom welcomes any query or question.
I have again sent this query to phonewatch and I will post this response as soon as I recieve it.
Tony

KoolKid · 02-03-2011 3:11pm

Tony, with due respect, I knew Eircoms policy was not to use UPC and to try get People to use a GSM alternative.
The questions I asked were why??
You gave a technically incorrect answer saying that a monitoring service can not be offered over UPC lines It can be.! .You stated its not possible because its a digital service. I and others here have stated that it can be done. Earlier I even gave examples explaining how a dialler is a phone & how any normal phone will work with a UPC line.
You reject my explanation but still don't offer an explanation. If you are going to suggest I, and others ,are lying at least do us the courtesy of explaining how.
As of yet you have ignored the question as to why Eircom are offering customers a GSM solution when it is common knowledge in the industry that these can easily be jammed. Could you also answer if Eircom are notifying customers of these issues before selling them that device & service?

eircom: Tony · 02-03-2011 3:59pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Tony, with due respect, I knew Eircoms policy was not to use UPC and to try get People to use a GSM alternative.
The questions I asked were why??
You gave a technically incorrect answer saying that a monitoring service can not be offered over UPC lines It can be.! .You stated its not possible because its a digital service. I and others here have stated that it can be done. Earlier I even gave examples explaining how a dialler is a phone & how any normal phone will work with a UPC line.
You reject my explanation but still don't offer an explanation. If you are going to suggest I, and others ,are lying at least do us the courtesy of explaining how.
As of yet you have ignored the question as to why Eircom are offering customers a GSM solution when it is common knowledge in the industry that these can easily be jammed. Could you also answer if Eircom are notifying customers of these issues before selling them that device & service?

Hi Koolkid
re my last post 'I have again sent this query to phonewatch and I will post this response as soon as I recieve it'.
However on each of your posts you highlight different topics. This is the reason I suggested it may be best for you to contact the technical staff and was suggested as the most direct way for you to get your query answered.
I invited you to post any information you might have gathered here if you wished.
I will add your latest query to my previous query and hope to get a satisfactory reply.
This may take time and I hope you can bear with me in this instance.
Regards
Tony

KoolKid · 02-03-2011 4:43pm

Thank you Tony'
I do appreciate that you are the man in the middle here.
I am sorry if I am coming across annoying , I have rang PW in the past & I have asked customers to call them also. But the reply remains the same just stating policy & not answering why.

eircom: Tony · 02-03-2011 5:03pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Thank you Tony'
I do appreciate that you are the man in the middle here.
I am sorry if I am coming across annoying , I have rang PW in the past & I have asked customers to call them also. But the reply remains the same just stating policy & not answering why.

I understand completely Koolkid especially if you have not had this issue resolved by PW. Yes am in the middle I am afraid, PhoneWatch is not a product I have ever really been involved with so rely on the information given me by PW tech support.
As you are asking specific technical and policy questions it just may take me a few days to get the correct info.
Thanks for bearing with me so far.
Tony

eircom: Tony · 04-03-2011 8:26pm

KoolKid wrote: »

Thank you Tony'
I do appreciate that you are the man in the middle here.
I am sorry if I am coming across annoying , I have rang PW in the past & I have asked customers to call them also. But the reply remains the same just stating policy & not answering why.

Hi KoolKid
This is the response I recieved to your query.
Current alarm technology does not support signalling over digital (UPC/NTL etc) phonelines so it is not that we refuse to supply the service it is just not possible for us (eircom) to do so. If a customer doesn’t have a landline or is having their landline disconnected we offer the GSM unit as an alternative form of monitoring. GSM monitors over the mobile network and can be used on it’s own or as a backup to existing landline monitoring.
Although GSM jamming has had some prominence in the media, re burglaries at commercial properties, there has been few reported incidents in residential situations which is our primary market.

The risk of jamming is low within the residential market. Of the 12k GSM units we have installed we have no evidence to suggest that any jamming has occurred on any of these. If a customer raises any issues with the product we will of course discuss these openly. Certainly we would not recommend that GSM only monitoring be installed on commercial properties where there is high risk.

I appreciate that it may not be the technical answer you wished for but does explain eircom's position on GMS.

I have been advised that if you did wish to speak with PhoneWatch they would be happy to try and answer further queries.
I hope it does answer at least part of your question.
Regards
Tony

KoolKid · 04-03-2011 9:11pm

eircom: Tony wrote: »

Hi KoolKid
This is the response I recieved to your query.
Current alarm technology does not support signalling over digital (UPC/NTL etc) phonelines.

Quite simply that's untrue.!!!!!
Anyone who wants to argue is invited to look at my system.
I challange Eircom to explain why they feel this is not technically possible.
Failure to answer this gives the impression that Eircom are simply trying to force people to keep their line's ..
As for GSMs, why are other stations refusing connections if the risk is minimal?
Do Eircom explain the risks to the customer?
After all it should be their decision?

altor · 07-03-2011 9:54am

It is untrue as I have tested there wire free systems with UPC, works no problem.

P.W. will have to get there finger out and employ a better solution than the GSM they are selling.

KoolKid · 08-03-2011 5:44pm

I don't blame Tony here, he is just the man in the middle & he is doing a great job trying to get the answers. It would seem he is being lied to as well.
So my questions still remain unanswered..:mad:

1> Is there any good reason why Eircom are telling people people alarms can not be monitored by UPC if they switch their phone provider, when clearly they can be.?
2>Why are Eircom offering a GSM dialler as a solution where there are well known issues re jamming?
3> Are Eircom making customers aware of the availability of GSM jammers & the possible consequences ?

In the face of no logical answers forthcoming, my own personal beliefs are this

1> People are told this in an attempt by Eircom to hold onto the customer for land line service & line rental rental.
2> Eircom have a large stock of GSM diallers , which need to be shifted before they become totally obsolete or they have no viable alternative to offer the customer re monitoring.
3> I would believe not for the reasons mentioned in 1 & 2 above.

KoolKid · 10-03-2011 7:55pm

6 days later and not further input from Eircom.:(
I would still like these issues addressed, please.

KoolKid · 14-03-2011 5:55pm

10 days later & no further input from Eircom.
Can a representative from Eircom please state the position on this.
Is this issue still being addressed or is it the policy on this forum for Eircom to simply post up lies then ignore the questions posted. Is this Eircoms out when they don't wan't to answer questions put to them??:mad:

donutheadhomer · 15-03-2011 10:09am

KoolKid wrote: »

6 days later and not further input from Eircom.:(
I would still like these issues addressed, please.

koolkid

I have a hkc alarm with eircom line that sends me texts on events. I've not got PW. Would this still work if I move to UPC? Also will UPC connect it up for me as part of their install process or do i need the alarm guys who installed it. only installed a year so new hkc system

altor · 15-03-2011 10:13am

UPC will only do voice with the HKC, not text.

donutheadhomer · 15-03-2011 11:08am

altor wrote: »

UPC will only do voice with the HKC, not text.

so in this case I will need a gms dialer for the hkc. any idea how much this would cost and is it possible to do myself?

Alarm monitoring over UPC

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