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Part of the recent 30KPH inner city speed limit to be scrapped.

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    #32
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Just wondering, does anyone have any idea why Eden Quay and Burgh Quay are to be excluded? It seems like a strange decision to me.
    There was a move to reverse the whole 30kph scheme following media pressure; agreeing to reverse a few streets was seen as a compromise allowing both sides to save face. The streets chosen have lower pedestrian footfall than others and are more capable of allowing faster traffic.

    The newly outsourced speed cameras will monitor the south quays between O'Connell Bridge and Capel Street Bridge. From what, I can see, the new limits have slowed down traffic but most is now between 30kph-50kph rather than below 30kph. There are now other 30 kph zones outside of the city centre. The scheme is based on evidence of safety and noise pollution improvements in 20mph zones introduced in London in the past.
    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/20-mph-zones-and-road-safety-in-london.pdf


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    #33
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    A lot of people seem to think the exact opposite.

    one submission != a lot.


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    #34
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    one submission != a lot.

    Err... the articles say that only one submission was received. That was Victor's submission. The submission had the effect of some side streets and lanes being retained at 30km/h. It's not always the amount that matters.

    Zero submission were received from those wanting to scrap the zone or even support the removal from some of the streets. But none of that says very much because there was the same amount against the original zone - zero submission. Very few people -- on any side -- even know about these public consultations and fewer again ever make submissions. :)


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    #35
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    dynamick wrote: »
    There was a move to reverse the whole 30kph scheme following media pressure; agreeing to reverse a few streets was seen as a compromise allowing both sides to save face. The streets chosen have lower pedestrian footfall than others and are more capable of allowing faster traffic.

    Does Eden Quay really have less footfall than Ormonde Quay? I wouldn't think so.

    Also, a lot of buses stop there and passengers disembark, which would also increase danger.

    I'm not saying Eden & Burgh Quays should or shouldn't be included, it just seems a strange exclusion in the context of the rest of the map...


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    #36
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    Err... the articles say that only one submission was received. That was Victor's submission. The submission had the effect of some side streets and lanes being retained at 30km/h. It's not always the amount that matters.

    Zero submission were received from those wanting to scrap the zone or even support the removal from some of the streets. But none of that says very much because there was the same amount against the original zone - zero submission. Very few people -- on any side -- even know about these public consultations and fewer again ever make submissions. :)

    I'd have made a submission if I thought DCC were going to obey the whim of one cyclist.

    Again, one submission does not suggest "a lot" of people are pro the 30km/h zone. If there was, there'd have been more than one submission against it being reduced.


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    #37
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    I'd have made a submission if I thought DCC were going to obey the whim of one cyclist.

    You want the speed limit increased on the side roads and lanes in question? :confused:
    MYOB wrote: »
    Again, one submission does not suggest "a lot" of people are pro the 30km/h zone. If there was, there'd have been more than one submission against it being reduced.

    Where have I said it does? I never used the submission as an example or proof that there is a lot of people who support the 30km/h limit. :confused:


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    #38
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    monument wrote: »
    You want the speed limit increased on the side roads and lanes in question? :confused:

    I want the entire zone brought back to 50.
    monument wrote: »
    Where have I said it does? I never used the submission as an example or proof that there is a lot of people who support the 30km/h limit. :confused:

    You said there were a lot of people who supported it, for which there is no evidence. If a lot of people supported it, more than one person would have made a submission.


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    #39
    Tails142
    Registered Users Posts: 2,106 ✭✭✭Tails142


    I drive in town a few times a week and I like the 30km/h restriction.

    I think it should be extended on the quay from Heuston Station all the way to Customs House.

    Only annoying thing about is the eejits that don't adhere to it weaving through traffic.

    In my opinion it makes driving in the city centre more enjoyable and would make it more likely that I'd come into town to do shopping.

    \/


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    #40
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MYOB wrote: »
    I want the entire zone brought back to 50.

    You may as well be a troll.

    MYOB wrote: »
    You said there were a lot of people who supported it, for which there is no evidence. If a lot of people supported it, more than one person would have made a submission.

    By that logic, given that zero people made submissions supporting the changes or supporting removing all of the zone, everybody wants to keep the old zone. :)


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    #41
    Mucco
    Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mucco


    MYOB wrote: »
    I want the entire zone brought back to 50.
    Why?

    The 30 kph limit was introduced because statistical evidence shows it's safer for pedestrians. It also makes the city centre a more pleasant place.
    When it was introduced on the quays, there was a lot of noise in the press and on this site against the new limit, but no rational argument. I would like to hear the rational argument. It takes ~1 minute longer to travel along the quays at an average of 30 compared to 50 - but how often do you average 50?


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    #42
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Through routes should have a 50 limit, like under the arch at Christchurch and west of Grattan bridge.

    However, there are a few ridiculous anomalies in the present scheme. Townshend st increased the limit as traffic approaches the Tara st junction.
    Bull Alley, with a contra flow bike lane has a higher limit, while the much wider Golden Lane has a low limit. All the streets off Francis St and Meath St in the liberties such as Dillon St, Engine alley, Pim St should all have a 30 limit, as should the area between the N1, Whitworth road, Botannic Road/Mobhi road and Home farm, or in the area inside the N2, old Finglas road, Ballymun road and Glasnevin(ballymun) avenue

    I'd reckon every housing estate in the land should default to having a 30 limit, with certain through routes being 50 on a case by case basis.


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    #43
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,304 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    The map being bandied about is from a suggestion about a year ago and is essentially irrelevant. The attached PDF maps are the ones that went to public consultation. Nassau Street was erroneously placed outside the 30km/h zone on the map, but was moved back in in the revised map. The PNG map is the map I submitted.

    In removing Wood Quay and Merchants Quay, they inadvertently omitted the streets between Merchants Quay and High Street - there is a school and residential terraces. It would seem that they have followed my suggestion and the version going for a vote to the council keeps those streets at 30km/h.
    MYOB wrote: »
    I want the entire zone brought back to 50.
    Including Grafton Street and Henry Street? Temple Bar?

    I made my submission on behalf of several hundred people. Your non-submission represents nobody. In any case, public consultation is about finding out what is the right thing, not necessarily what people who whinge shout the loudest want.

    So, do you want to keep the 50km/h on the M50 also?


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    #44
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,056 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Victor wrote: »
    T... keeps those streets at 30km/h...

    Sorry for being pedantic. But keeps them at an unenforced 30km/h. Peak time grid lock, keeps the average speed low. But off peak speeds are high. 30km/h zone is meaningless in that context.


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    #45
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Victor wrote: »

    Including Grafton Street and Henry Street? Temple Bar?

    None of those are open to standard public traffic.

    Victor wrote: »

    So, do you want to keep the 50km/h on the M50 also?

    No, I want it returned to the 120km/h its curvature and lane width is entirely suitable for.


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    #46
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Mucco wrote: »
    Why?

    The 30 kph limit was introduced because statistical evidence shows it's safer for pedestrians. It also makes the city centre a more pleasant place.
    When it was introduced on the quays, there was a lot of noise in the press and on this site against the new limit, but no rational argument. I would like to hear the rational argument. It takes ~1 minute longer to travel along the quays at an average of 30 compared to 50 - but how often do you average 50?

    During the day, traffic does not exceed 30km/h often to ever within the zone - original, current or soon to be reduced to.

    At the times when the Guards actually enforce the revenue generation area, sorry, speed limit area; there *are no pedestrians*. Or cyclists.

    Additionally, driving freely at or under 30km/h is ridiculously hard on a modern car to do - requiring extreme driver concentration to the point that they're not focusing on the road and causing serious engine or gearbox wear. As well as spewing out emissions, including nice thick black ones on diesel engines.

    If they want to keep it for show, time limit it.


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    #47
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    MYOB wrote: »
    Additionally, driving freely at or under 30km/h is ridiculously hard on a modern car to do - requiring extreme driver concentration to the point that they're not focusing on the road and causing serious engine or gearbox wear. As well as spewing out emissions, including nice thick black ones on diesel engines.

    Its easy, just lift your foot from the accelerator pedal a bit more, the car will automatically slow down.

    Also regarding the extreme concentration, dont worry, that will ease over time once you are off your L plates. Everyone is nervous at the start.


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    #48
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jumpy wrote: »
    Its easy, just lift your foot from the accelerator pedal a bit more, the car will automatically slow down.

    Also regarding the extreme concentration, dont worry, that will ease over time once you are off your L plates. Everyone is nervous at the start.

    No it won't. It'll stall. I assume you're driving something tiny that is willing to roll along in second? Anything with a decent size engine won't.


    And I'm an IAM member, thanks for the sneering insult.


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    #49
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    No problems in an FTO.

    Also had no problems in the 30km/h areas in Sydney in my 4L Straight 6 Falcon.

    The only way you will mess up your gearbox is if you ride your pedal. Ask your driving instructor for more details on this.


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    #50
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jumpy wrote: »
    No problems in an FTO.

    Also had no problems in the 30km/h areas in Sydney in my 4L Straight 6 Falcon.

    The only way you will mess up your gearbox is if you ride your pedal. Ask your driving instructor for more details on this.

    Driving 7 years, fully qualified, zero points (while driving about 5x the Irish average annual distance), IAM, work as a professional driver. Neither of my cars will run at 30 without serious intervention. They'll roar in first, they'll roar in second, they'll stall in third.

    If you can't respond other than with childish insults you're not worth dealing with.


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    #51
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    Sorry if you consider them insults. I had just thought that maybe it might be worth getting a little more driver training so that you can safely drive at a reduced speed. As opposed to trying to change a speed limit that any other reasonally capable driver has no trouble with.


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    #52
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jumpy wrote: »
    Sorry if you consider them insults. I had just thought that maybe it might be worth getting a little more driver training so that you can safely drive at a reduced speed. As opposed to trying to change a speed limit that any other reasonally capable driver has no trouble with.

    If you learn to discuss like an adult in future, let me know.


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    #53
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,304 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    MYOB wrote: »
    None of those are open to standard public traffic.
    All are open to traffic and most of Temple Bar is open to traffic at least part of the day.
    No, I want it returned to the 120km/h its curvature and lane width is entirely suitable for.
    The only parts of the M50 inside the city are the port tunnel from East Wall to the M1/N32. Hardly suited to 120km/h, but parts are inadvertently subject to 50km/h
    MYOB wrote: »
    Additionally, driving freely at or under 30km/h is ridiculously hard on a modern car to do - requiring extreme driver concentration to the point that they're not focusing on the road and causing serious engine or gearbox wear. As well as spewing out emissions, including nice thick black ones on diesel engines.
    Driving slow is fuel efficient. It is stop-start traffic (and racing to the next red traffic light) that is fuel inefficient. Driving slower reduce the stop-start effect.


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    #54
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Victor wrote: »
    All are open to traffic and most of Temple Bar is open to traffic at least part of the day.

    If they're not open to general traffic on a full-time (barring temporary works) basis they can slap whatever limit they want on them. Possible exception for the bus gate.
    Victor wrote: »
    The only parts of the M50 inside the city are the port tunnel from East Wall to the M1/N32. Hardly suited to 120km/h, but parts are inadvertently subject to 50km/h

    Last time I checked that was either 50km/h approaching the plaza and 80km/h further away from it. Limits at toll plazas are always 50 at the mouth.
    Victor wrote: »
    Driving slow is fuel efficient. It is stop-start traffic (and racing to the next red traffic light) that is fuel inefficient. Driving slower reduce the stop-start effect.

    I don't ever remember "racing to the next red traffic light" at night in Dublin. Indeed I've had two combined green waves that took me from the Custom House to Bridge Street and the on to HSQ before.

    Driving the same at 30km/h would have been far less fuel efficient than 50 and I've had missed many light timings - as they were never altered for 30.


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    #55
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    Thanks for the personal interest. I shall advise you of any future Toastmasters course I may complete.
    However it might be worth considering that not every view that differs from yours is 'childish' as you put it.
    You simply pointed out your difficulties with safe driving and I offered advice to resolve said difficulties.
    I would have expanded on it, however it really is as simple as lifting your foot a bit more from the pedal.
    If your car stalls or is over-revving then its worth visiting a mechanic.

    The common "gearbox burnout" argument is void as the only way you can damage it is if you ride your gear pedal.

    Simply put, many, many people in many, many variations of motor vehicle have no problem driving at this speed.

    So why do you?


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    #56
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jumpy wrote: »
    The common "gearbox burnout" argument is void as the only way you can damage it is if you ride your gear pedal.

    Riding the clutch pedal will damage the clutch, not the gears.

    Lugging the engine by driving too slow for a gear will damage the gears.
    Jumpy wrote: »
    Simply put, many, many people in many, many variations of motor vehicle have no problem driving at this speed.

    So why do you?

    I don't see "many, many" people actually driving at this speed, ever. Its either crawling, or complete flouting of the limit.


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    #57
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    MYOB wrote: »
    Riding the clutch pedal will damage the clutch, not the gears.

    Lugging the engine by driving too slow for a gear will damage the gears.



    I don't see "many, many" people actually driving at this speed, ever. Its either crawling, or complete flouting of the limit.

    Tomato/Tomato (damn this one really doesnt work using text) I'm an Aussie. Specific wording is irrelevant.

    Easy fix for the first one. Use the right gear.

    The second one you have no control of so why stress? I supported Andrew when he brought this in and I will support anyone else who would bring this into other cities.

    I am a little tired of people spouting rubbish about it damaging their vehicles or causing crashes because you have to "watch your speedo" all the time when its a simple matter of just being plain impatient.


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    #58
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Jumpy wrote: »
    Tomato/Tomato (damn this one really doesnt work using text) I'm an Aussie. Specific wording is irrelevant.

    In this case, its an extremely substantive difference. I don't seem to remember Australian cars having different part names...
    Jumpy wrote: »
    Easy fix for the first one. Use the right gear.

    There isn't one. Its either drive quite hard in second or stall in third. In two cars with entirely different types of engines (a low revving mid sized diesel and a highly strung, high-revving forced induction small enough petrol). I've also driven other vehicles up to extremely large engine petrols, same problem. No car is designed to drive easily at 30km/h for prolonged periods.
    Jumpy wrote: »
    The second one you have no control of so why stress? I supported Andrew when he brought this in and I will support anyone else who would bring this into other cities.

    Just shows that you have no proof that "many, many" people have no problem doing the speed when virtually nobody actually does it.
    Jumpy wrote: »
    I am a little tired of people spouting rubbish about it damaging their vehicles or causing crashes because you have to "watch your speedo" all the time when its a simple matter of just being plain impatient.

    None of it is rubbish.


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    #59
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    Quick request - Jumpy & MYOB, please try not to be personal in future posts. Both of you are well able to make your points without sarcasm or jibes.


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    #60
    Jumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,606 ✭✭✭Jumpy


    -Chris- wrote: »
    Quick request - Jumpy & MYOB, please try not to be personal in future posts. Both of you are well able to make your points without sarcasm or jibes.

    SmallThumbnail.jpg


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    #61
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BostonB wrote: »
    Sorry for being pedantic. But keeps them at an unenforced 30km/h. Peak time grid lock, keeps the average speed low. But off peak speeds are high. 30km/h zone is meaningless in that context.

    Not as affective as it should be, but not meaningless. Speeds are down slightly and with more enforcement speeds can be brought down further. At peak time there is not always grid lock everywhere, there's a lot of needless rushing from one set of lights to the other.

    MYOB wrote: »
    No, I want it returned to the 120km/h its curvature and lane width is entirely suitable for.

    The M50 is somewhere I'd be in favour of looking at electronic variable speed limits.
    MYOB wrote: »
    During the day, traffic does not exceed 30km/h often to ever within the zone - original, current or soon to be reduced to.

    If that is the case it's really a mute point. If most cars are travelling at or under 30km/h there's noting really to worry about. If what you're saying is true, 30km/h affects so few drives its not worth worrying about.
    MYOB wrote: »
    At the times when the Guards actually enforce the revenue generation area, sorry, speed limit area; there *are no pedestrians*. Or cyclists.

    Yes, it's all a conspiracy! The city councillors who proposed and voted on the measure are clearly in a secret partnership with the Department of Finance who get the money which goes into general funding.... and then the Department slashes the council's funding. Great conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

    You don't know the city very well, do you? The only hours of the day when there are no pedestrians are so few hours that it does not matter.

    MYOB wrote: »
    Additionally, driving freely at or under 30km/h is ridiculously hard on a modern car to do - requiring extreme driver concentration to the point that they're not focusing on the road and causing serious engine or gearbox wear. As well as spewing out emissions, including nice thick black ones on diesel engines.

    If they want to keep it for show, time limit it.

    Our cars are little different than UK or German cars so, you're talking nonsense. Next thing you're going to claim is that all Germans drive little dinky cars with tiny engines? And drivers adjust.

    And as in Germany, 30km/h speed limits are very important in town and cities at night as a solution to noise pollution from cars -- a problem Dublin suffers from acutely.


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