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legal recognition of transgendered people
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08-08-2010 8:12pm#1As you are probably aware the government is now required under a High Court ruling to recognise legally recognise the "acquired gender" (don't like the term myself but it seems to be the one that is used a lot) and they have set up a working group
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2010/Pages/pa300610.aspxThe Minister has already established an interdepartmental committee – the Gender Recognition Advisory Group – to advise him on the legislation required to comply with the ruling. The group has as its terms of reference to propose heads of a bill to provide for the legal recognition of the acquired gender of transgendered people, the issuing of births certificates reflecting the new gender, granting entitlement to marry in the new gender, and any other provisions consequential on the main provisions. The group is made up of representatives of relevant Government Departments and is expected to report to the Minister in about six months. The group will engage in a public consultation exercise and may consult with experts in the field, as appropriate.
It might be very useful for members here to answer this public consultation exercise when it does take place so that they have an input into the Irish legislation
Things that come to my mind:
In other countries transgendered must divorce a partner or become sterilised before they undergo any sex change operations
Also I think that some countries (I may be totally wrong about this) recognise legally people who choose not to have any operations but to live as another gender
personally I think the Irish legislation must amend equality legislation so an equal protection is given for transgendered people as it is to men and womenIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Thanks for this Johnny.
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I'm going to keep an eye out to see when the public consultation starts - I did see an email from TENI suggesting it will be soon enough
It might be worthwhile if people are going to make a submission that people should do a little reading of what it is like in other countries - maybe ask people on any mailing lists - I know for example from talking to some people that there have been problems with the UK legislation
Press for change is a good source of information
http://www.pfc.org.uk/It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Thats brilliant news and hopefully it will aid in the implementation of further equality based laws that are not inclusive of transgendered people. I too will keep my eye out for any invite of public opinion and voice mine where possible. Will new legislation be published prior to public opinion though.0 -
ItsThatManAgain wrote: »Thats brilliant news and hopefully it will aid in the implementation of further equality based laws that are not inclusive of transgendered people. I too will keep my eye out for any invite of public opinion and voice mine where possible. Will new legislation be published prior to public opinion though.
No - the public consultation phase would definitely be first before the heads of bill is published - from the email that I read I would even expect the public consultation phase within the next few weeks. The aim of the public consultation phase is to assist in drawing up the legislation
also there will be the usual protest groups putting in their submissions so it is important that the working group receives as many trans-positive submissions as possible from supportive individuals and organisations.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 18487
Well could we have a sticky and a brainstorming group for positive input. I know areas that should not go unchecked, discrimination and equal protection from hate crimes.0 -
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Yeah, well why not start brainstorming now?
Are you thinking about doing some sort of group submission? I do think that as many individual submissions as possible will be helpfulIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 18487
I intend on making a submission, i was hoping i dont miss something but im sure it will be covered either way.0 -
FYI
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/Legislation/Pages/genderrecognition.aspxGender Recognition – Public Consultation
On foot of a High Court ruling that Ireland is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights in not having a process to legally recognise the acquired gender of transsexual persons, the Government has decided to introduce legislation to comply with the judgement.
To progress this decision, the Minister for Social Protection has established an interdepartmental group – the Gender Recognition Advisory Group - with the following terms of reference:
To advise the Minister for Social Protection on the legislation required to provide for legal recognition of the acquired gender of transsexuals. In particular to propose the heads of a bill to provide for:—
the establishment of a process for legal recognition of the acquired gender of transsexual persons who have made the transition from one gender to another;
the establishment of a gender recognition register;
the granting of entitlement to marry in the legally recognised reassigned gender; and
any other provisions as may be deemed necessary consequent on the main provisions of the Bill.
To help progress its work, the Group hereby invites comments and proposals on relevant issues from interested parties, and the general public.
Proposals and comments should be submitted by e-mail to the secretary of the Group at: grag@welfare.ie - not later than Friday September 17th 2010.
The Group may invite individuals or representatives of groups to make presentations at a later stage.
Basic Scope of Proposed legislation
The basic scope of the legislation is to authorise the Minister to set up and operate a scheme whereby the State recognises the changed gender of transsexual persons.
Recognition of the changed gender of an individual will be signified by a formal statement that the person's new gender is henceforth to be regarded as their gender for all purposes.
Outline of Process
The Group’s initial view is that the basic outline of the scheme should be as follows:
The person seeking recognition of his/her changed gender makes an application to the Minister, or a decision making body designated under the Act, seeking to have the new gender recognised.
The applicant submits evidence in support of the application.
The Minister, or the decision making body, examines the application and the evidence and makes a decision to either accept or reject the application.
The Minister or the decision making body, issues a formal statement to the successful applicant recognising the new gender.
There will be an appeal process for unsuccessful applicants.
The Group invites submissions on the proposed process.
Principles
The Group proposes certain guiding principles to inform the design of the decision making process and the setting of the qualification criteria:
The process should fully respect the rights and dignity of the applicant.
The terms and conditions of the scheme should not deter potential applicants from applying.
The criteria should be capable of being interpreted in a consistent and objective manner.
The process and the criteria should be such as to command the respect and trust of the applicants and the wider community in terms of its integrity and fairness .
The process should be completed in a timely manner.
Respect for privacy and confidentiality is a key requirement.
The Group invites submissions on these draft principles.
Qualification Criteria
The qualifying criteria for the scheme to include the following:
Minimum Age
The Group proposes that applications should only be accepted from persons aged 18 years or older.
Irish Residents
The Group proposes that applications should only be accepted from:
Persons ordinarily resident in Ireland; or
Persons whose births are registered in Ireland.
Other
Submissions are invited on other possible qualifying criteria, for example:
Should persons in an existing marriage or civil partnership be excluded?
Submissions are invited on these points.
Acceptance Criteria
In making its decision the Minister or official decision making body will require a level of evidence to the effect that the applicant has made, or is making a genuine transition from the original gender to the opposite preferred gender.
The Group invites submissions as to the evidence that should be required of the person making the application.
Decision Making Process
The Group invites submissions on the type of decision making process which should be established. Options could include:
Judicial or Court - model whereby applicants would apply to a designated existing court;
Statutory Panel - model whereby an expert independent panel would be appointed under the legislation to make the gender recognition decisions;
Gender Recognition Certificate and Recording of Data
The Group proposes the following procedures relating to the process following the recognition decision:
The Minister or the decision making body will issue a gender recognition certificate to the successful applicant.
Recognition of the new gender of an individual will apply from the date of issue of the gender recognition certificate. All rights, responsibilities and consequences of actions by the person in their original gender role prior to the date of recognition would remain unaffected.
The issue of each new gender recognition certificate will be notified to the Registrar General of the GRO.
The question as to notification of other official bodies remains to be considered.
The General Register Office (GRO) will be required to keep a confidential register of all persons whose acquired gender is recognised.
In the case of persons whose birth is already registered with the GRO, the successful applicant would be entitled, on application, to a new birth certificate with the new gender and new names indicated.
This certificate would be indistinguishable in format from the standard birth certificate.
The creation of a birth entry in a register maintained for the purposes of gender recognition will not affect the original entry in the register of births.
Issue of a new birth certificate showing the new gender role will not extinguish the original birth certificate. Both will continue to be available for use and be legally valid.
The Group invites submissions on these proposals.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Any thoughts
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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From reading the outline it sounds like it would be the same procedure as you would use to update your gender on your passport.
Does it say anywhere you have to have had the OP because if you can get a GRC without having SRS first it would seem to be better then the English system.0 -
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No it doesn't say but perhaps you could put something along those lines in a submission?From reading the outline it sounds like it would be the same procedure as you would use to update your gender on your passport.
Does it say anywhere you have to have had the OP because if you can get a GRC without having SRS first it would seem to be better then the English system.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Well it is better if you do not need it, so I wouldn't want to go giving them ideas.0
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Well it is better if you do not need it, so I wouldn't want to go giving them ideas.
Can you explain a bit more about this?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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In England don't you need to have been full time for 2 years and have had SRS to get a GRC, from the way it is put above it might be easier to get over here with the way the info was posted above if SRS is not needed.0
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In England don't you need to have been full time for 2 years and have had SRS to get a GRC, from the way it is put above it might be easier to get over here with the way the info was posted above if SRS is not needed.
I don't know exactly what the rules are but I'm trying to get you to maybe explain a bit more so that we could all get a better understandingIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I don't know exactly what the rules are but I'm trying to get you to maybe explain a bit more so that we could all get a better understanding
@Lilith: As far as I can remember, the Gender Recognition Act doesn't require surgery in order to get a recognition cert, but it definitely helps. I could be wrong on that... just I remember when the GRA was just the GRB (Or Gerbil to its friends), and that was an issue. (Just looked it up. Looks like section 3(3)(a) doesn't specify surgery but does say "(a) the applicant has undergone or is undergoing treatment for the purpose of modifying sexual characteristics" - so it's definitely hardline proof, but not necessary if you have good references on your side)
@Johnnymcg: The reason why it's not a great idea to have a requirement for genital surgery in the guidelines is for several reasons:
For FtM trans-people, the surgery is VERY expensive and not very effective at the moment. When I say expensive, I mean that you could buy one of the really nice cars that they have on Top Gear (basically a low-slung penis on 4 wheels) for that kind of money, and you'd probably get a lot more satisfaction from it.
Then there are people who will not have genital surgery in their lifetime, but do want to be recognised in their new role. Reasons include (but are not limited to):- Poverty - should recognition of gender be given purely on the grounds of who can afford it?
- Medical reasons - if you have a history of thrombosis or something similar, I could imagine a surgeon would refuse to operate)
- Risks - I know folk who nearly bled to death due to post-op complications. Also for MtF surgery, you face some significant nerve damage (I think best case is something like 25% nerve damage - that's possibly optimistic, but I'm in work, so I don't really want to google the stats)
- Last, but by no means least... Some people are happy with what they have - trans-people transition to be comfortable in themselves, and if they need to get an operation to get appropriately recognised, it is a case of compromising oneself one way or the other.
Basically, people can be non-op (as opposed to "pre-op" which suggests an intent to get surgery at some point in the future) for any number of reasons, and limiting this recognition process only means that a good chunk of people who can benefit from this are going to be left in the cold.
Hope that makes it a little clearer.
Aoife0 -
Thanks Aoife
Yes was the clearer explanation I was looking forIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I'm just curious about the process which will eventually come from these suggestions. Is it a case of, everyone with a concern/input/suggestion submits these, the Group looks at these, picks what they deem to be the best path/procedure, and it becomes law. Or will they publish a draft bill (I assume its going to be a bill) for further study/amendment before making it law?
Things to be consider would be stuff like PPS number, are you issued with a new one or are your tax records amends. If they are how will they ensure confidentiality there?
There was a case in Austrailia (I think) where the police disclosed to some individual when he was being charged/arrested for something, his partner used to be a man. She had transitioned and never told him. The police took the p*ss out of him, he went balistic, went home and killed her.
Now I know this kind of thing is extreme, but how, if they intend to share information with other bodies, do they prevent something like that happening.
Or how are they going to determine what relevent bodies should and shouldn't know. What will be the procedure to prevent a body with whom they share information with, from passing that information onto another body/organisation?
Health Insurance/Car Insurance - will the issueing of a cert be enough to ensure any any public/private company you may deal with to treat you as your aquired gender?0 -
- Yes they will publish the heads of a bill - a draft bill - obviously the religious cranks will be writing to them too which is why they should receive as manySassyGirl_1 wrote: »I'm just curious about the process which will eventually come from these suggestions. Is it a case of, everyone with a concern/input/suggestion submits these, the Group looks at these, picks what they deem to be the best path/procedure, and it becomes law. Or will they publish a draft bill (I assume its going to be a bill) for further study/amendment before making it law?SassyGirl_1 wrote: »Things to be consider would be stuff like PPS number, are you issued with a new one or are your tax records amends. If they are how will they ensure confidentiality there?
There was a case in Austrailia (I think) where the police disclosed to some individual when he was being charged/arrested for something, his partner used to be a man. She had transitioned and never told him. The police took the p*ss out of him, he went balistic, went home and killed her.
Now I know this kind of thing is extreme, but how, if they intend to share information with other bodies, do they prevent something like that happening.
Or how are they going to determine what relevent bodies should and shouldn't know. What will be the procedure to prevent a body with whom they share information with, from passing that information onto another body/organisation?
Health Insurance/Car Insurance - will the issueing of a cert be enough to ensure any any public/private company you may deal with to treat you as your aquired gender?
I think broadly those headings would come under Data Protection and Equal Treatment so maybe if you have some reccomendations in those areas then send them inIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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any thoughts?
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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The main issue I dislike about the UK legislation is the mandatory divorce/annulment of potentially solvent and happy marriages if one partner wants to change their birth cert. Obviously this is down to 'gay marraige' factors and I think it just highlights that Trans activism is rooted in LGB activism.
If we had gay marriage there would be no issue on a trans individual for example changing her birth cert to reflect her gender identity as a woman and still keeping her marriage to a woman. especially if children are involved it seems crazy to dissolve functioning relationships.
The other issue, which has been raised, is the requirement for surgery, which I hope isn't put through ESPECIALLY if it specifically states the removal of sex organs. I think it's unlikely unfortunately though that people will be able to be granted an amended birth cert without some form of 'gender surgery'.0 -
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The main issue I dislike about the UK legislation is the mandatory divorce/annulment of potentially solvent and happy marriages if one partner wants to change their birth cert. Obviously this is down to 'gay marraige' factors and I think it just highlights that Trans activism is rooted in LGB activism.
If we had gay marriage there would be no issue on a trans individual for example changing her birth cert to reflect her gender identity as a woman and still keeping her marriage to a woman. especially if children are involved it seems crazy to dissolve functioning relationships.
The Civil Partnership bill while a major step step forward in Ireland for the LGBT Community, is the attempts of a few to try and shush the minority to satisfy many. While I support Civil Partnership, I don't think it should stop there. I'd much rather Gay Marriage instead with equal rights and not some watered down version.The other issue, which has been raised, is the requirement for surgery, which I hope isn't put through ESPECIALLY if it specifically states the removal of sex organs. I think it's unlikely unfortunately though that people will be able to be granted an amended birth cert without some form of 'gender surgery'.
Surgery typically states the removal of sex organs for MTF trans people and top surgery for FTM as far as I am aware. I also hope that this isn't a requirement for one to obtain a change to their birth cert as not all can afford the surgery or want it for that matter. In my opinion, that requirement goes back to the day in which Psychiatrists and Endocrinologists were regarded as 'gatekeepers' by the trans community as they were selective about who they let transition. Honestly, it's like holding a gun to someones head.0 -
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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ItsThatManAgain wrote: »The Civil Partnership bill while a major step step
Surgery typically states the removal of sex organs for MTF trans people and top surgery for FTM as far as I am aware. I also hope that this isn't a requirement for one to obtain a change to their birth cert as not all can afford the surgery or want it for that matter. In my opinion, that requirement goes back to the day in which Psychiatrists and Endocrinologists were regarded as 'gatekeepers' by the trans community as they were selective about who they let transition. Honestly, it's like holding a gun to someones head.
Actually in terms of passport legislation it's any surgery at all regardless of MTF or FTM direction. Usually it's all about the gonads or it's not - regardless if it's the lads or the ladies we're talking about. I don't see why people should be forced to give up their sex organs if they don't want to. There are loads of reasons not to want any operation including SRS. (Not to mention people who'd love to but can't have it.)
Really it's hardly a 'swan princess' kind of moment where you wake up from surgery and suddenly you've come through some massive transformation like the tabloids suggest (like you're magically a woman now you're post op - please). Any 'transformation' takes place long before SRS in my opinion.
Also speculation means nothing really, we need to fight our corner on all these issues. There is no real way to know how this legislation will go in.0 -
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So by that reasoning you can't actually change your birthcert either because, in most instances a birthcert is proof of identity to obtain a passport in the first place.
If this is actually the case, as I said before using a quality of english not befitting a man or woman, it's bullshít that one would require surgery, before they can legally change their name and gender on their birthcert on other documents. It should be a case of reaching a certain point in your transition, know it's what you want then obtain a letter from a GP/Psychiatrist permitting one to change their details. Surgery is one more hurdle that should not have to be overcome as transitions can be stressful enough for some.0 -
ItsThatManAgain wrote: »So by that reasoning you can't actually change your birthcert either because, in most instances a birthcert is proof of identity to obtain a passport in the first place.
If this is actually the case, as I said before using a quality of english not befitting a man or woman, it's bullshít that one would require surgery, before they can legally change their name and gender on their birthcert on other documents. It should be a case of reaching a certain point in your transition, know it's what you want then obtain a letter from a GP/Psychiatrist permitting one to change their details. Surgery is one more hurdle that should not have to be overcome as transitions can be stressful enough for some.
You can get a temporary passport in your preferred gender marker (which you need to keep renewing) if you're on hormones and have a psych letter.
To get a permenant one you need some kind of surgery that can qualify as a gender surgery (FFS, top surgery, vocal surgery - anything). This may not even be totally accurate still. It was when I went through the system which is around 3 years ago.
I really need to get updated on all this. I'd love if people maintained / updated an information site with this info on it but it's hard to keep up with internal changes in policy and sometimes they don't like you knowing it.
Edit:
and in terms of practicality having your passport changed is infinitely more useful on a day to day basis then your birth cert willl be but it's still important to get done.0 -
You can get a temporary passport in your preferred gender marker (which you need to keep renewing) if you're on hormones and have a psych letter.
To get a permenant one you need some kind of surgery that can qualify as a gender surgery (FFS, top surgery, vocal surgery - anything). This may not even be totally accurate still. It was when I went through the system which is around 3 years ago.
I really need to get updated on all this. I'd love if people maintained / updated an information site with this info on it but it's hard to keep up with internal changes in policy and sometimes they don't like you knowing it.
I got a full passport with the gender marker changed before any surgery recently, all they looked for was my deed pool and a letter from my GP that i was on hormones and living fulltime. This was only a few months ago though so the system might have changed0 -
Is that a full passport Lilith or a temp one(2 years)?0
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The Council of Europes commissioner for human rights made some
interesting comments on this as well
http://commissioner.cws.coe.int/tiki-view_blog_post.php?postId=74It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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It is important tht people take the time to give in put on this other wise conserative groups will be the only voices. I've seen how they rally thier grass roots with leaflets and suggestioned texts so that the submissions are swamped from thier point of view.
A friend had to review and do a synopsis when input was asked on reviewing what consitutes a family underlaw and there were rosary beads and picture of padre pio ect attched and prayers.0 -
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I could argue religion all day, but I love how they feel they have a hand in everything. 50 years ago, the Government wouldn't do a tap without Church approval. Now I just wish the Church and it's mindless sheep would píss off and let everyone get on with their own thing.0 -
Thomas Hammarberg is a brilliant ally. He sent a video to the TENi law conference in the Law Society and he was very eloquent and supportive. Good to know the EU are on track.0
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Atleast the EU Commissioner for Human Rights knows the score and is highly supportive of the issue. He's in the best possible place to help make some change across the board.0 -
ItsThatManAgain wrote: »Atleast the EU Commissioner for Human Rights knows the score and is highly supportive of the issue. He's in the best possible place to help make some change across the board.
The European Council and the EU are entirely separate.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 18487
My bad. Still not up to date on the old EU and EC. Maybe I should be.0 -
+1000It is important tht people take the time to give in put on this other wise conserative groups will be the only voices.
Reminder about this - a week to goIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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deadline on Friday
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Below is the draft response that I've put together, based on experiences here and in the UK.
The closing date has been extended to the end of September and if anyone has any feed back on this please feel free to PM me
Regards
Louise
Gender Recognition Act submission Louise Hannon September 2010
Response to the establishment of a process for legal recognition of the acquired gender of transsexual persons who have made the transition from one gender to another.
Main overriding criteria
The principle criteria for this legislation should be :
Once a person starts to transition from one gender to the other, (the acquired gender) they should not be in a disadvantaged position in comparison to their life pre-transition or to any other citizen of the state
Definition: To whom the act should apply.
A transgendered person is one who lives permanently in the gender opposite to that in which they were physically born. A transgendered person (frequently referred to as a Transexual) does not mentally identify with their born gender. This definition should also include those who are intersexed i.e. born with the physical sexual characteristics of both sexes. Intersexed people may or may not be transgendered depending on the clinical choices made at birth.
Medical Criteria
● The medical criteria on whether someone should be issued with a GRC is vitally important. Some countries will only grant a GRC /birth certificate in cases where full medical gender reassignment has been completed. This has one major drawback. There are cases where those with GID are diagnosed, but unfortunately for medical / health reasons they cannot go on to have SRS (Sexual reassignment surgery) This exclusion causes extreme mental stress to those involved. The UK act works on the principle of the legal process starting on diagnosis, and this should be applied in Ireland.
Once a person is living fully in the acquired gender (this can be set at two years for example) and have all their records changed to reflect this position i.e. name change by deed poll and PPS records changed then that should suffice, where a medical condition prevents further movement.
Intersexed individuals
● Those who are born intersexed. (The sexual organs are ambiguous and both are present ) These individuals are assigned a gender shortly after birth by surgical intervention, usually on the basis of their parents who choose which gender they would prefer, and it's mostly female. This small group are completely excluded from the UK act and they must be included in Ireland. They have exactly the same problems as those born fully male or female.
Those diagnosed with GID who are married and have no wish to divorce
● Situations arise where a person would like to transition within a loving marriage and where there is no wish to divorce. The UK act makes a person decide between divorce and a Gender Recognition Certificate. This is entirely unfair. If this is allowed to happen here, then a couple would then be forced to use the civil partnership mechanism to carry on in their legal relationship. This is not equivalent to marriage. There will be issues in this situation which will become complicated in regard to property rights inheritance and children's rights.
I believe those in a marriage should be allowed to remain married and still transition with a new birth certificate in the acquired gender.
The establishment of a gender recognition register etc.
● A small specialist section within the appropriate government department, should be made available to oversee the issue of Gender Recognition Certificates provided a person meets the criteria.
● The criteria for issuing a gender recognition certificate should be clear and unambiguous. An appeal process should be set up through the district court where points of law arise with final arbitration decided by the relevant government minister in cases where fraud or other potential inappropriate actions have been identified.
● It would be helpful if a gender recognition document if issued before a full birth certificate in the acquired gender could be made identical to the full birth certificate. Perhaps a shortened version with full version being available on full completion of SRS, similar to a short birth certificate with a full birth certificate being held in reserve. The problem with a gender recognition certificate which is not identical to a birth certificate being used for legal purposes for example to enter college, “outs” anyone straight away as being transgendered.
● There should be no payment of fees for issuing a new birth certificate. Transitioning is an expensive process in itself and even getting a new passport costing €75 is too much for some people who transition on Welfare. The passport is used in many cases for identification purposes for jobseekers benefits etc.
Who should the act apply to?
● The GRA should apply to those over 18 who are of Irish Nationality, but it should also include provision for those under 18 who with advances in medicine are now being treated in Germany the UK and the USA
● The GRA should apply to those who were not born here but who have lived and worked here and who could obtain Irish citizenship, and who wish to transition here.
● All foreign GR Certificates should be accepted here, and those coming to work here who are in transition allowed to fully complete their legal transition, should that be necessary through their own government channels.
Access to information and confidentiality.
● Access to the original birth certificate information and deed poll needs to be controlled and it needs to be made an offense to disclose the previous gender information to anyone except to those bodies on a strict list to include An Garda but only on application to a court. Perhaps the data protection act needs to be amended to include this as one method. If a civil servant or any other person discloses sensitive gender details to a third party they need to be sanctioned legally in such a way as to deter others.
Currently within the state all documents can be changed in an ad hoc way once a name has been changed by deed poll. Changing PPS records or a driving license are relatively straight forward. However, within Social Welfare, Fas and the Revenue all system gender details need to be changed individually as the computer systems do not link to each other. There needs to be a way found to synchronise all government records within one department, even on the grounds of fraud and security.
Acts requiring amendment
● The Employment Equality Act gender definition should be amended to include transgender to copper fasten any ambiguity which currently exists under the grounds of gender.
● Equal Status Act
Discrimination should be outlawed where a transition occurs and the person transitioning is worse off financially, legally, or medically. e.g. Being treated unfavourably by an insurance company post transition.
● Data Protection Act amended to include a ban on disclosure of the born gender to any third party unless as previously discussed above.
Finally
There are a host of other situations that need to be clarified in relation to treatment by government agencies, which should be addressed but perhaps not necessarily within this legislation.
1/ Treatment protocols should be set up by the HSE for A&E when treating those presenting with health issues
2/ Treatment protocols within the Prison Service and an Garda Siochana0 -
ItsThatManAgain wrote: »I could argue religion all day, but I love how they feel they have a hand in everything. 50 years ago, the Government wouldn't do a tap without Church approval. Now I just wish the Church and it's mindless sheep would píss off and let everyone get on with their own thing.
In thirty years time that generation will be gone. Most people under fifty in this country are atheist/non religious in all but name. Of course the census won't reflect that as the Mammies fill them out, and cite the entire family as Catholic-thus giving the Catholic church more power in society and influence in government. The moral of the story is for people not to cite themselves as Catholic in the census if they don't practise their religion. Sadly people do,usually because they are born into the church or perhaps they just don't think enough.0 -
Acts requiring amendment
● The Employment Equality Act gender definition should be amended to include transgender to copper fasten any ambiguity which currently exists under the grounds of gender.
● Equal Status Act
Discrimination should be outlawed where a transition occurs and the person transitioning is worse off financially, legally, or medically. e.g. Being treated unfavourably by an insurance company post transition.
● Data Protection Act amended to include a ban on disclosure of the born gender to any third party unless as previously discussed above.
Finally
2/ Treatment protocols within the Prison Service and an Garda Siochana
I would personally regard these as the three most urgent issues.0 -
TENI have put together some notes on Gender Recognition and making a submission. Deadline for submissions has been extended to the 30th.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]
***A TIME FOR RECOGNITIONMaking a submission to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group
For further information or assistance please contact:
TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland
E director@teni.ie
T 01 633 4687
Introduction
The lack of a process whereby individuals who may wish to be legally recognised in a gender other than that which is recorded on their birth certificate has emerged as a significant issue which renders Irish law incompatible with the State’s obligations under European Human Rights norms. TENI welcomes the establishment of the GRAG and a public consultation process to address this issue as a hugely positive step towards the full recognition of transgender people in Ireland
Transgender Equality Network Ireland (TENI) is a national non-profit organisation establishedto represent and work with Ireland’s transgender community, including their families and friends, by providing support and education, and by advocating for equality, rights, and access to services. TENI is working to develop and support transgender services and resources. (TENI) are asking organisations and individuals to make a submission to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group. To assist we have prepared some explanatory notes that highlight some of the main points we believe are important to address.
What is the background to the setting up of this Advisory Group?
On foot of a High Court ruling that Ireland is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights in not having a process to legally recognise the acquired gender of transsexual persons, the Government has decided to introduce legislation to comply with the judgment.
To progress this decision, the Minister for Social Protection has established an interdepartmental group – the Gender Recognition Advisory Group. This Group is inviting proposal and comments and the terms of reference can be found at http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/Legislation/Pages/genderrecognition.aspx
Proposals and comments can be submitted by e-mail to grag@welfare.ie by September 30th 2010.
What is gender recognition?
In order to interact with the law one must identify oneself as either male or female. These are the only two sexes/genders which the law will recognise. Access to legal rights and protections flows from recognition as either male or female. Those rights and protections to which one may be entitled varies depending on the gender as which one is recognised. Under the law of the European Convention on Human Rights, Ireland is obliged to introduce a scheme to enable legal recognition of the preferred gender identity of people. Once legal recognition of the preferred gender identity is achieved, a person should be treated as if of that gender from that moment forward.
Who would benefit from the introduction of gender recognition legislation in Ireland?
There are three groups of people who would benefit from the introduction of gender recognition legislation. These are:
i. Transsexual people: those who have completed gender reassignment surgery from one gender to the other;
ii. Transgender people: those who for whatever reason are not undergoing a medical and/or surgical transition but who identify in the opposite gender role; and
iii. Intersex people: those whose bodies simultaneously combine both male and female biological traits who may not identify with the gender assigned at birth or who may not identify as either male or female.
What form should legal recognition of gender in Ireland take?
There are a number of ways in which legal gender recognition could be put into effect. To be all inclusive it is recommended that legislation is introduced which will encompass all three categories of people who would benefit from it. It is
suggested that accessing the right could depend on a sworn affidavit of intention to live permanently in the preferred gender role and a confirmation of gender identity; medical or surgical intervention; or confirmation as intersex.
TENI would like to see Irish gender recognition legislation which:
Respects privacy and dignity
Respect for the privacy and dignity of all people who might seek to employ the rights contained in a legislative scheme for gender recognition must inform all aspects of the drafting and implementation of such a scheme.
Is as inclusive as possible
The proposed legislative framework should be as inclusive as possible of all people who might benefit from the rights contained therein. Therefore, eligibility criteria should be kept as simple as possible to facilitate wide access to gender recognition.
Secures complete legal recognition in the new gender
Legal recognition implies that once recognised, a person is legally treated as being of the recognised gender from that moment on. Therefore, no other enactments are necessary in order to enable the person live life undisturbed. Where attempts have been made in other jurisdictions to regulate beyond recognition, such as the introduction of the requirement to disclose prior gender history on marriage, this creates new discriminations. Therefore, the law must treat the recognised person the same as others of the recognised gender.
Does not invalidate marriage and/or parentage
Recognition in the preferred gender identity should not invalidate any acts done prior to recognition. Therefore, parentage, marriage etc would remain unaffected by transition. To introduce a divorce requirement would pose particular difficulties in the Irish context. Furthermore, such a requirement is unfair to the supportive spouse and children of the person seeking recognition as it interferes with that spouse’s right to marry, and the rights of the children to remain part of the marital family. Therefore we would strongly recommend that those in a valid marriage or civil partnership should not be excluded from gender recognition provision.
Conclusion
Recognition of the human rights of transgender people has opened up legal possibilities, for now that the transgender person's human right to be recognised in a new gender has been acknowledged, issues concerning diagnosis, treatment and self-determination are likely to become prominent in human rights law. It is a time of real hope that can offer dignity and respect to people who have experienced discrimination and exclusion. It is vital that the opportunity to promote and establish equality and human rights for all trans people is not missed.
For further information or assistance please contact:
Kathleen Murray
TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland
E director@teni.ie
T 01 633 46870 -
I would personally regard these as the three most urgent issues.
Well in reality legal recognition by the issuing of a birth certificate gives people legal status. That has to come before anything else, because transgender people are not currently legally recognised by state bodies so therefore the government will not change any of the above acts until that happens.0 -
I sent this is - EVERYONE can still send something similar in TODAY
GRAG@welfare.ieDear Working Group
I wish to make a submission regarding the proposed Gender Recognition Act.
Firstly I believe the working group should take on board the views expressed by Thomas Hammarberg – The Council of Europes Commissioner for Human Rights recent comments regarding forced divorce and forced sterilisation.
http://commissioner.cws.coe.int/tiki-view_blog_post.php?postId=74
I am strongly of the view that forcing divorce and sterilisation should not be considered under Irish legislation
I think the working group should consider the fact that for various reasons some individuals may not be able to undergo physical surgery – However in these cases I think they should be allowed obtain a new birth certificate anyway
I strongly believe that the Data Protection and Employment Equality and Equal Status Acts must be updated to protect transsexuals
I think the general registry office or HSE should deal with this process – Decisions should NOT under any circumstances be at the whim of a Government MinisterIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I'd like to bump this and include some hany bullet points of what I felt the main issues were.
Please please make a submission even if it's just a small bullet point list, even if you're no trans.
Thank you
***
· Introduce yourself, why you think inclusive gender recognition legislation is important, and why you have an interest in making a submission to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group (GRAG).
· Gender recognition legislation must be inclusive, and explicitly allow provisions for all transgender and intersex individuals to avail of it (not limited only to ‘transsexual’ people).
· Applicants must not be forced to choose between having their gender recognised and being in a civil partnership or marriage. Married and civilly partnered applicants should be allowed to remain in their marriages or civil partnerships and have their gender recognised. The rights of family, including children, must also be considered.
· An individual should be allowed to self-select for gender recognition simply by presenting a sworn affidavit, without the requirement of (gender dysphoria) diagnosis or subjection to assessment by a statutory panel.
o The requirement of (gender dysphoria) diagnosis for gender recognition is a violation of human rights and furthermore impractical in the Irish context due to the dearth of medical practitioners knowledgeable in trans experiences.
o Subjecting applicants to gender scrutiny by way of an ‘expert panel’ is inhumane and unnecessary. The costs and time involved, as well as the lack of expertise available for such a panel make this option unfeasible. It should be up to the individual trans person to select as an applicant for gender recognition, as members of the panel would inevitably impose their own ideas of what gendered appearances and behaviours constitute being ‘trans enough’.
o It is feasible and preferable in the Irish context for a sworn affidavit alone to qualify someone for gender recognition. This would be the most simple, cost-effective and appropriate procedure.
· The process must be timely, respectful and accessible to any transgender or intersex person who wishes to have their gender recognised.
· All of these requests are in line with European Human Rights norms.0 -
Quote
"An individual should be allowed to self-select for gender recognition simply by presenting a sworn affidavit, without the requirement of (gender dysphoria) diagnosis or subjection to assessment by a statutory panel."
There is a major problem with this approach. Unfortunately there are individuals with mental health issues which may or may not be related to being transgendered. The approach until now has been to deal with these issues before/during transition. The process of transition is stressful enough at times, so to proceed without some treatment path in place could cause some serious issues, particularly within a hormone treatment programme.
I don't mean to be saying this in any way which is detrimental to those with mental health issues, but it is an issue that needs to be brought out into the open and discussed.0 -
The GRAG report is being launched tomorrow morning at 11am
http://www.pila.ie/bulletin/latestbulletin/2011/07/13/gender-recognition-legislation-minister-to-launch-report-tomorrow--/
Heres some background info
http://www.irishexaminer.com/features/state-stalling-on-gender-issues-153614.htmlIt was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Available now on welfare.ie!
Major step forward - although unfortunately not covering those in existing marriages or civil partnerships and not covering intersex conditions. The report does recognise that something needs to be done for those in the latter group though, which is positive. Hopefully that will be the next step.
Overall - yay!0 -
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