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Understanding Transgender.

  • 12-07-2010 02:02PM
    #1
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭


    I have recently been reading all the threads about the transgendered among us and the struggles they face with soceity and finding support etc. But as someone who has no experience of transgender people, I find it hard to fully understand all that is spoken about in these threads. So I would like to ask a few questions in order to get a better insight and understanding.

    When you first realise you are transgender is it a sudden moment of realisation or is it just something you know?
    How is it you know you are transgender?
    Is there a risk that some people wish to transition because they feel they would be more acceptable to soceity as a member of the opposite sex? (Because as they are they are a homosexual or other reasons.)


    I ask solely out of a desire to understand the transgender population not to cause offence or outrage.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    hi GalwayGuy92, thanks for posting, and don't worry you have not caused any offense or outrage. Ask any question you want, and I (and others) will answer as best we can. ;)

    When, and how someone knows that they are transgender varies from person to person, there's no easy answer. Some people just know from an extremely young age, other people struggle with feelings they can't put their finger on for many years. In this thread, from post #31 onwards, I talk a lot about how I came to terms with my gender identity, so that should help answering your question, and I'm sure others can relate tales of how they came to terms with their genders.

    The idea that some people might transition because they feel it more acceptable to be a straight woman than a homosexual man is extremely unlikely, unless you're living in Iran where sex changes are sanctioned and homosexuals are put to death. In most cultures, those who are transgender are treated far worse than those who are gay, lesbian or bisexual. It's also pretty unlikely because there are a lot of lesbian trans women and gay trans men.

    People transition for themselves, because they feel an intense dissonance between themselves and their physical sex. And believe me, there is nothing more intense, more uncomfortable and more disturbing than feeling your own genitalia is wrong.
    Very, very rarely are there cases of people who transition and feel that it was the wrong thing for them.

    hope that helps and if you have any more questions at all, feel free to ask ;)


  • #3
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Galwayguy,

    I think the thread mentioned by Links234 is well worth a read, especially from page 2 onwards, where a few of us get into debunking some of the myths around being trans.

    For me, it most certainly wasn't a sudden awakening. Growing up, I couldn't understand why people called me male, but I accepted what they were saying (I didn't understand "female" either, so I wasn't able to self-identify as being female). Around age 9, I noticed an attraction for women's clothes. I started cross-dressing in my early 20s, but it wasn't until I was nearly 40 before I decided to address my cross-dressing in therapy. It took me about a year before I was able to self-identify as a transvestite, then another 4 months or so before I was able to self-identify as transsexual.

    How do I know I am transsexual? That was a question that it took me 4 months of quite intensive work to answer.

    - I found I felt an awful, whole lot better as "female" than as "male"
    - I found I was identifying a lot with the feelings of other transsexuals, and I also found that where there was a difference between a transvestite and a transsexual, I identified with the latter
    - The concept of gender started to make sense to me for the first time in my life.
    - My sexuality also reacted - I began to see men in a whole new light!

    It is important, at this juncture, to re-state what Links234 said - the answer to that question varies from person to person, so please don't take what I've said above as the definitive guide to a transsexual!

    As for the risk of that someone would want to transition in order to be more accepted by society? In a way, that is the only reason why anyone ever transitions! The level of self-acceptance I have as female is far greater than the level I have as male, and so I'm not going to have an inner experience of acceptance by society unless I live a life that is true to myself. Of course, that inner experience of acceptance by society is marred by the fact that, for the rest of my life, I'm also going to experience occassional transphobia, but it is well well worth it.

    However, I think you may actually have been asking "is there a danger that trans people are self-delusional?". If that is the question you were asking, then I'm sorry to say that it is somewhat offensive. But, in fairness, the answer to that question is "of course there is that danger!!!". There are delusional people throughout society. But it has to be said that the level and intensity of psychological/psychiatric screening of trans people is huge, with the result that the level of "regret" is, I believe, way less than 1%. Think about it - how many other medical interventions of the same severity of transition have a success rate of greater than 99%?
    I ask solely out of a desire to understand the transgender population not to cause offence or outrage.
    No offense taken. You didn't start the horrible myths about trans people, and you are clearly anxious to not perpetuate them, and I thank you for that.


  • #4
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    .

    However, I think you may actually have been asking "is there a danger that trans people are self-delusional?". If that is the question you were asking, then I'm sorry to say that it is somewhat offensive. But, in fairness, the answer to that question is "of course there is that danger!!!". There are delusional people throughout society. But it has to be said that the level and intensity of psychological/psychiatric screening of trans people is huge, with the result that the level of "regret" is, I believe, way less than 1%. Think about it - how many other medical interventions of the same severity of transition have a success rate of greater than 99%?
    This is somewhat what was on my mind in a way but not in such an ignornant manner, trans people are not delusional in any way, nor was I under that misconception. I was just wondering if there was a danger that someone sufering from mental conditions such as depression or something else, may turn to this as the root of their problem when in fact it may not be (of course it may be but also may not be). From your answer it is clear that this is an offensive question to ask and I apologise for the bluntness but as you said it is a risk that exists but clearly it is a risk that is effectively dealt with in the screening processes as the high success rate suggests. I hadn't realised such an intense screening process was there, which now of course it sounds obvious such a system would be in effect.


  • #5
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    GalwayGuy92 wrote: »
    I was just wondering if there was a danger that someone sufering from mental conditions such as depression or something else, may turn to this as the root of their problem when in fact it may not be (of course it may be but also may not be).

    It's a problematic question to ask because of the fact that the transsexual condition causes depression and other things. It's extremely stressful and distressing when your physical sex doesn't match up to your gender identity, and of course that can take it's toll on you. I suffered from depression, I also suffered from anxiety attacks and became agoraphobic. It's pretty hard to face the world when you feel you have to keep up this male persona, that every time you step outside your door you have to play a role, and that even your closest friends never even know you as a person. And I also suffer from genophobia.

    But the thing is, don't confuse correlation for causation.
    A person doesn't become trans because they're depressed, they're often depressed because they're trans and can't face up to that.

    Consider that there's a higher rate of depression and suicide among gay people than among straight people. Are they gay because they're depressed? Or does the issues they have to face and the prejudice they can receive take their toll on some gay people?


  • #6
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    Links234 wrote: »
    It's a problematic question to ask because of the fact that the transsexual condition causes depression and other things. It's extremely stressful and distressing when your physical sex doesn't match up to your gender identity, and of course that can take it's toll on you. I suffered from depression, I also suffered from anxiety attacks and became agoraphobic. It's pretty hard to face the world when you feel you have to keep up this male persona, that every time you step outside your door you have to play a role, and that even your closest friends never even know you as a person. And I also suffer from genophobia.

    But the thing is, don't confuse correlation for causation.
    A person doesn't become trans because they're depressed, they're often depressed because they're trans and can't face up to that.

    Consider that there's a higher rate of depression and suicide among gay people than among straight people. Are they gay because they're depressed? Or does the issues they have to face and the prejudice they can receive take their toll on some gay people?

    Thank you Links this is what I was trying (and failing) to get at.

    I see how my post trivialised the issues faced by trans people and that was far beyond my intention. Having read the suggested posts I have found out a lot of things that opened my eyes to how closed minded I previously was with regard to transgendered people.
    I think my main problem with understanding was that it requires the dropping of all my notions of gender and the mental aspect of gender. This is difficult to grasp since before I had thought myself open-minded, this wasn't so with regards trans people. The more I read about it the most interested I become, in trans people and the issue as a whole.


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  • #7
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Well Galwayguy, I don't think you're closed minded, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread and asked for people to help you understand. And I'm very happy you have done so, because not everyone would go out of their way to try and understand something like this. I'm glad you're finding it interesting too.

    If there's any other questions at all, please go right ahead and ask.


  • #8
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    GalwayGuy92 wrote: »
    This is somewhat what was on my mind in a way but not in such an ignornant manner, trans people are not delusional in any way, nor was I under that misconception. I was just wondering if there was a danger that someone sufering from mental conditions such as depression or something else, may turn to this as the root of their problem when in fact it may not be (of course it may be but also may not be). From your answer it is clear that this is an offensive question to ask and I apologise for the bluntness but as you said it is a risk that exists but clearly it is a risk that is effectively dealt with in the screening processes as the high success rate suggests. I hadn't realised such an intense screening process was there, which now of course it sounds obvious such a system would be in effect.
    Such questions are only offensive because of the assumptions that can be behind them. Usually when someone "asks" if a trans person "may" be suffering from self-delusion, the implication is that trans is "caused" by self-delusion. That implication I find offensive, for fairly obvious reasons.

    I accept that you weren't implying that I, or any other trans person, is any more likely to be self-delusional than the general population - that removes any offense from your question.

    Friends? :)


  • #9
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    i call myself a crossdresser. i like to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex.
    i have always been interested in female clothes.i dont dress full time because of family etc.
    i think a transvestite would be someone who "dress" all the time & go out in public dressed.
    a transexual then is a person male or female who feel they should / want to change to the opposite sex & go on hormones to reach that goal.


  • #10
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    I was just wondering are there any FtM Trans people here? If so are your experiences similar as the MtF? Or are they remarkably different? I would imagine they are similar but so far most of my assumptions have been wrong with regards the issue.


  • #11
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    coolvale wrote: »
    i call myself a crossdresser. i like to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex.
    i have always been interested in female clothes.i dont dress full time because of family etc.
    i think a transvestite would be someone who "dress" all the time & go out in public dressed.
    a transexual then is a person male or female who feel they should / want to change to the opposite sex & go on hormones to reach that goal.
    The terms used to describe trans people are all very grey and shifting. The big problem is that no-one likes the "sexual" in "transsexual", as it has nothing to do with sexuality.

    Being trans is grey - using your terminology above, there are people who are between cross-dresser and transvestite, and there are people who are between transvestite and transsexual.


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  • #12
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    it seems that most trans people are male to female.
    that is my obsevation of the situation.
    maybe im wrong.


  • #13
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    GalwayGuy92 wrote: »
    I was just wondering are there any FtM Trans people here? If so are your experiences similar as the MtF? Or are they remarkably different? I would imagine they are similar but so far most of my assumptions have been wrong with regards the issue.
    I've met more than one FtM. The issues are similar, and different. The social issues are broadly the same - transphobia, bullying, etc. The medical issues are a bit different. On the plus side, testosterone is stronger than estrogen, and so FtMs very quickly get to a much better level of "passability" than MtFs. In particular, their voices break! On the minus side, I believe the surgical options for FtMs aren't as great as those for MtFs.

    I had the rather scary experience last weekend of holding a sachet of the testosterone gel that some FtMs use (there is more than one way of getting testosterone into the system). I can't imagine what I would have done if the sachet had burst!


  • #14
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    coolvale wrote: »
    it seems that most trans people are male to female.
    that is my obsevation of the situation.
    maybe im wrong.
    You most certainly are.

    I would say that it is probably 50-50. The thing is that a lot of trans people quietly "melt" back into society as soon as they have finished transition. However, MtF trans people seem to hold more of a fascination to society than FtM, and so we get talked about and written about more.


  • #15
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    deirdre you seem to have done your homework well.


  • #16
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    coolvale wrote: »
    deirdre you seem to have done your homework well.
    Almost everything I've written is from experience - both my experience and the experience of other trans people I've met or whose stories I've read.


  • #17
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    deirdre_dub wrote: »
    The big problem is that no-one likes the "sexual" in "transsexual", as it has nothing to do with sexuality.

    this is true of me personally, I much prefer transgender to describe myself

    but I think coolvale points out something rather important, is that transgender is meant to be a blanket term that includes many gender variant people, including crossdressers and even intersex people. not all trans people are like me, and I'm not like all trans people, it's a varied bunch ;)

    also there are absolutely loads of FtMs, I don't know if it's 50/50 but probably pretty close to that. the thing is, we rarely hear about them in the media, and a lot of people don't seem to find it surprising that a female bodied person would want to become male bodied, but it's unfathomable to many that someone male bodied would want to become female bodied. then you've got the psychological perspective, and people on the MtF spectrum get all kinds of dehumanizing and ridiculous theories thrown at them to try and explain their gender identity, but there's almost nothing in comparison to that level of pathologicalization on the FtM spectrum, almost as if it were assumed that it's natural they'd want masculine bodies.


  • #18
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    TRANSWHAT? is a good resource as well


  • #19
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    people dont take any notice of a female walking down the street dressed as a male.
    so when she changes her body to male who will take notice ?


  • #20
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    coolvale wrote: »
    people dont take any notice of a female walking down the street dressed as a male.
    so when she changes her body to male who will take notice ?

    His friends, family and partner? Everyone he knows and everyone who knows him. This change isn't just to the female body but to the whole web of people involved. Deirdre has said FtM transgendered people suffer much the same as MtF so this is an 'educated' guess. Besides there is a MASSIVE difference between dressing as a man and becoming a man in the eyes of soceity.

    On an unrelated but still on-topic note, does anyone recall that show Anna Nolan had on RTE some years ago about transgender and crossdressing people? It was part of the 'Anna in Wonderland' series I think. I dont recall exactly the stance it took on the whole trans issue but as far as I remember it was fairly sympathetic.
    Anyway, there was a FtM trangender person featured and this person seemed to imply that taking testosterone (possibly with other hormones too) caused male genetalia to be produced naturally (without surgery) by the female body, protruding through the vagina, I don't recall if it was functional or not but I was curious to see if anyone knew if this is true or just added in for good television viewing?


  • #21
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    GalwayGuy92 wrote: »
    Anyway, there was a FtM trangender person featured and this person seemed to imply that taking testosterone (possibly with other hormones too) caused male genetalia to be produced naturally (without surgery) by the female body, protruding through the vagina, I don't recall if it was functional or not but I was curious to see if anyone knew if this is true or just added in for good television viewing?
    This isn't true. Hormones taken by transmen increase the size of the clitoris, but don't cause anything to protrude through the vagina.


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  • #22
    GalwayGuy92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭GalwayGuy92


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    This isn't true. Hormones taken by transmen increase the size of the clitoris, but don't cause anything to protrude through the vagina.
    I pretty much expected that one but the show just popped into my head and I had to ask even though it sounds like a ridiculous question.


  • #23
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    one time sex or transgender issues would not be mentioned on irish tv or radio.
    there was a nude scene on tv , it was an artist painting it was part of a series .there was such a carry on the remainder programs were not shown.


  • #24
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    well as far as I know, the clitoris can become quite big from the testosterone
    I saw some website before where there was this female wrestler who did a porn video, and I dunno maybe because of steriod abuse or testosterone, she had a massive clitoris


  • #25
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    im quite happy as i am being a cross dresser.
    maybe if i was younger & know then what i know now i would have thought about things in a different light.
    i will never know what my decission would have been.


  • #26
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    coolvale wrote: »
    im quite happy as i am being a cross dresser.
    maybe if i was younger & know then what i know now i would have thought about things in a different light.
    i will never know what my decission would have been.

    Do you mean that you think you might have wanted to transition?


  • #27
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    i may have.
    but when i was growing up anything to do with transgender was not discussed or heard of in ireland.
    all i knew was i liked dressing in girls clothes.


  • #28
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    coolvale wrote: »
    i may have.
    but when i was growing up anything to do with transgender was not discussed or heard of in ireland.
    all i knew was i liked dressing in girls clothes.

    If you still feel that way now, what's stopping you? don't think that you're too old to do it, that's kind of a sunk-cost fallacy.


  • #29
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    i got heart & other health problems so i would not be suitable for it.


  • #30
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    oh I'm very sorry to hear that :(


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  • #31
    coolvale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 217 ✭✭coolvale


    im ok so long as look after myself.


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