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KCC/Castletown backlots.

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  • 05-05-2010 8:23pm
    #1
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭


    Has Kildare Co.Co. circularised the initiative referred to below to the residents of Castletown ?
    Who is the nominated representative?
    Who nominated and elected him/her?
    Who in Kildare County Council is liaising with this nominated representative?
    Did I blink and miss something or is Kildare County Council doing this behind closed doors?
    Surely the issue of land previously taken in by residents backing onto backlots should be dealt with before proceeding to dispose of more land. Land that was designated green/open space as a condition of planning for Castletown estate.

    "The initiative should be led by Castletown Residents and where appropriate supported by the Council in the discharge of it’s statutory functions.


    1. the Castletown residents confirm their nominated representative to engage with Kildare County Council in relation to this matter.

    2. a site visit be arranged for the Celbridge Area Committee Members to examine the areas in question

    3. Kildare County Council confirm the areas it considers suitable for transfer of title, subject to agreement between all parties on proposed developments.

    4. The Castletown Residents prepare for submission and approval to Kildare Co. Council. Their agreed proposals for the areas considered suitable for transfer title.

    The Area Committee will be kept informed of developments. "

    I believe that whoever the representive may be, he/she should be capapable of bringing the proposals of all concerned residents to the council. As this has been a contentious issue for some years it needs someone who is capable of taking on board the views of all concerned and reaching a fair and balanced solution.
    Anyone with an interest in any of the backlots / open spaces needs to prepare proposals to be brought to the council by the representative .


    http://www.kildare.ie/community/CatherineMurphy/2010/03/celbridge_area_committee_some.html

    I note that the Area Committee are to be kept informed of the developements is there any possibility that someone might inform the residents?


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    #2
    soulsearcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭soulsearcher


    This has dragged on for years. Presumably the council in an effort to get closure on the matter will close off the backlotts. If they own the land I imagine they will dispose of it as they see fit.


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    #3
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    I see that the Residents are having an EGM on the 25th of May to deal with this. From what I know, it has dragged on for years and there have been various attempts to resolve the issue. With KCC eventually taking the estate in charge, I think there is now better chance of this issue actually being put to bed so to speak.
    I was on to them and they have someone who has dealt with the backlotts for the last number of years and seems to know everything there is to know about the subject but they seem quite frustrated with the complications up to now that have been involved. They say that KCC are now dealing with the issue in a concerted way and want to resolve it this year - here's hoping !


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    #4
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Altered state of mind


    When was the egm date decided. We didn't receive any notification of this.
    What exactly is on the agenda for discussion. Why arent the residents association or the council keeping the residents up to date with this. There is no mention of an egm on the CRA website.
    What is going on between KCC and the CRA.
    Come on you guys spill the beans.
    Nice try CRA : Castletown North and Castletown South, divide and conqour wont work. Green open spaces should mean exactly what it says on the tin.


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    #5
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Altered state of mind


    second wrote: »
    I was on to them and they have someone who has dealt with the backlotts for the last number of years and seems to know everything there is to know about the subject but they seem quite frustrated with the complications up to now that have been involved. They say that KCC are now dealing with the issue in a concerted way and want to resolve it this year - here's hoping !
    Who is this person?


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    #6
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    Altered state of mind wrote: »
    Who is this person?

    Planning permission was applied for in 1992 by certain person/s to extend their gardens into the green open spaces which were (and still are) the designated amenity areas for all the Castletown residents.

    Perhaps this might answer your question. Check out File no. 92/1002

    http://webgis.kildarecoco.ie/planningenquirysystem/MainFrames.aspx

    It is worth noting that those who are hoping for closure are most likely to be the few who stand to gain at the expense of the majority. The green open spaces are designated amenity areas for the benefit of all Castletown residents. The excuse of anti-social behaviour is pathetic. If some of the amenity areas get closed off, the anti-social behaviour just gets moved on and becomes more concentrated in the few remaining areas. This has already happened as some of the backlots have been closed off by certain residents.

    A few years ago Castletown residents were asked to submit suggestions for the use of these backlots, addressed to Simon Wallace, Parks Department, Kildare Co. Council (address below). It is better to deal directly with the council on this issue, rather than through a third party. The CRA does not have a mandate to act as our representative/s on this issue.

    Mr. Simon Wallace,
    Parks Department,
    Áras Chill Dara,
    Devoy Park,
    Naas,
    Co Kildare


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    #7
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Altered state of mind


    How can we deal directly with the council when they have asked for a nominated representative.
    According to KCC's website Dave Kenny of the housing section is dealing with this matter. http://kildare.ie/CountyCouncil/CorporateAffairs/CorporateServices/Meetings/CelbridgeArea/2010/Minutes/MeetingTitle,21457,en.html


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    #8
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    Hi Altered,
    Jees ! I was only letting people know what I had found out - I don't have all the answers !! I suggest that people that Do want to find out goes to the EGM - obviously they have been working on this issue if there is an EGM ????
    Regarding the signs - come on - they're nice - what's this about divide and conquer - divide and conquer who ? Sometimes I wonder why people would bother ever trying to do anything !


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    #9
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Altered state of mind


    Reading through the archived minutes and agendas of the monthly meetings on KCC's website it would seem that hardly a month goes by without some councillor or other raising the issue of the backlots. Reports are given, dates set for meeetings with representatives , a site vist was even arranged.
    If KCC are serious about resolving this issue why are the residents not being regularly uptpdated.
    If the CRA are serious about representing all the residents why are they not informing them of the "progress" they have been making on their behalf.
    With only 3 weeks to the egm we need the information upfront now.
    On what basis has KCC accepted the CRA as representative of all the people of Castletown.
    Not all residents are members of the CRA and not all members of the residents association necessarily agree with the views of the Committee.:mad:


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    #10
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    Altered state of mind wrote: »
    How can we deal directly with the council when they have asked for a nominated representative.
    According to KCC's website Dave Kenny of the housing section is dealing with this matter.

    I see what you mean. This was back in February.
    CE20/02/2010
    Backlots, Castletown,Celbridge

    The committee considered the following motion in the name of Councillor Murphy:
    Can we set a date to visit the internal backlots in Castletown, Celbridge?
    Mr Dave Kenny of the housing section gave a report on this item and agreed to meet the members on site within the following weeks, he stressed that the council would engage with this process however the residents must also be involved.
    Resolved: That Mr Kenny meet with the members on site to progress this item further.

    However, I am finding it impossible to get a clear picture of this. For example, Who is giving these orders and setting up this 'initiative'? I will have to find out more about it tomorrow and get back to you. It looks like some plans that affect all of us are being made behind closed doors, by persons as yet unknown to us. This is unacceptable!


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    #11
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    second wrote: »
    Hi Altered,
    Jees ! I was only letting people know what I had found out - I don't have all the answers !! I suggest that people that Do want to find out goes to the EGM - obviously they have been working on this issue if there is an EGM ????
    Regarding the signs - come on - they're nice - what's this about divide and conquer - divide and conquer who ? Sometimes I wonder why people would bother ever trying to do anything !

    Where did you find out that there was going to be an EGM?

    As for the signs, anyone I have spoken to thought they were a joke :rolleyes:! Whoever put those there never gave a second thought to whether anyone else wanted them.


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    #12
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Altered state of mind


    second wrote: »
    Hi Altered,
    Jees ! I was only letting people know what I had found out - I don't have all the answers !! I suggest that people that Do want to find out goes to the EGM - obviously they have been working on this issue if there is an EGM ????
    !

    Thanks for letting us know. It would be hard for anyone to have all the answers with the secrecy surrounding the dealings between KCC and the CRA.


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    #13
    soulsearcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭soulsearcher


    The Raven. wrote: »
    As for the signs, anyone I have spoken to thought they were a joke :rolleyes:! Whoever put those there never gave a second thought to whether anyone else wanted them.

    Not a very funny joke more of a sad reflection on those responsible.


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    #14
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    I was talking to one of the members. I know there are leaflets being delivered also - maybe not everywhere has got them yet.
    I do know that the residents committee seem to have been quite frustrated with what seemed to be back and forward with nothing ever happening. Maybe - and this is just giving a 'alter' view to this - what are they to do really if there was no real information or move until recently ? This new person in the KCC seems to have a part to play then in things moving forward ? Maybe it's only now that the residents group has actually got any new news of substance and that's why they are calling an EGM ?? To my mind that would be fair enough. They can't call to every single person everytime someone says boo ! Maybe the EGM tells all ? Maybe they are trying to act in best interest ? Maybe they re doing their best ? Maybe, maybe, maybe !!!
    I do feel though that I feel a little bad when I see them doing clean ups or planting and I drive by them - seems to be small enough group trying to do things.
    Regarding the signs - I like them - but no - I was'nt asked - but would the council ask ? I was'nt asked either when they cut the grass in the open areas or planted new plants at the 'north' entrance !
    I'm not arguing with you lads but come on - if there are people out there that give their time to try and do some good on behalf of everyone - give them a break - no one's perfect and as the saying goes -'you can't please all the people all the time' !


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    #15
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    Altered state of mind wrote: »
    Reading through the archived minutes and agendas of the monthly meetings on KCC's website it would seem that hardly a month goes by without some councillor or other raising the issue of the backlots. Reports are given, dates set for meeetings with representatives , a site vist was even arranged.
    If KCC are serious about resolving this issue why are the residents not being regularly uptpdated.
    If the CRA are serious about representing all the residents why are they not informing them of the "progress" they have been making on their behalf.
    With only 3 weeks to the egm we need the information upfront now.
    On what basis has KCC accepted the CRA as representative of all the people of Castletown.
    Not all residents are members of the CRA and not all members of the residents association necessarily agree with the views of the Committee.:mad:

    It seems as if the councillors are being pestered by a person or persons to close up these backlots and hand them to the residents living next to them for free. They have been trying this since the early 90s.

    As for the CRA, this is nothing new. They didn’t hold an election at the last AGM or the one before it. They just keep electing themselves. They most certainly are not representing the residents in general on this issue, and KCC and the relevant councillors need to be made aware of this.


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    #16
    soulsearcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭soulsearcher


    The Raven. wrote: »
    I see what you mean. This was back in February.



    However, I am finding it impossible to get a clear picture of this. For example, Who is giving these orders and setting up this 'initiative'? I will have to find out more about it tomorrow and get back to you. It looks like some plans that affect all of us are being made behind closed doors, by persons as yet unknown to us. This is unacceptable!

    I wish you luck getting a clear picture on this one.
    The fact that some areas were already closed off prior to this "initiave " , despite KCC requesting that people refrain from doing so , has surely muddied the waters.
    KCC don't have a clear picture , given the reccomendation by Catherine Murphy that they seek the advice of other councils that have dealt with similar issues.
    So we have a council that doesn't know what to do liaising with a representative who is unknown to the residents but is meant to bring the views of all residents to the council. A surefire recipe for clarity indeed!


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    #17
    soulsearcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭soulsearcher


    I take your point Second the CRA do a lot of very good work.
    But given the contentious nature of this issue it needs to be dealt with openly and transparently.


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    #18
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    second wrote: »
    I was talking to one of the members. I know there are leaflets being delivered also - maybe not everywhere has got them yet.

    The leaflets that were delivered recently only mentioned an AGM on the 11th May. No mention of an EGM.

    With all due respect, I have heard all your other arguments before and they don't really wash. We are talking here about the legal rights of the residents in Castletown, which are not too complicated to understand. These rights cannot be diminished on a whim without proper consultation and agreement of each and every resident in the estate.


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    #19
    soulsearcher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35 ✭soulsearcher


    It would seem to me that those rights are being ignored. KCC seem happy enough to deal with this anonimous individual. Presumaby that is their idea of proper consultation with all residents.


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    #20
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    soulsearcher wrote: »
    I wish you luck getting a clear picture on this one.
    The fact that some areas were already closed off prior to this "initiave " , despite KCC requesting that people refrain from doing so , has surely muddied the waters.
    KCC don't have a clear picture , given the reccomendation by Catherine Murphy that they seek the advice of other councils that have dealt with similar issues.
    So we have a council that doesn't know what to do liaising with a representative who is unknown to the residents but is meant to bring the views of all residents to the council. A surefire recipe for clarity indeed!

    That paints a pretty disgraceful picture indeed! I will try to seek clarification, as it affects us all.


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    #21
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    Just a thought but when they refer to a 'representative' of the residents - could they mean the association themselves as being the representative ?They would afterall be the actual single 'representative' body of the residents be it on this issue or others ??
    Anyway, glad to see that some progress seems to be happening, afterall, we all know how long it took and the roundabouts that were experienced with regard to the taking in charge process. A lot of people thought there were cloaks and daggers there when in fact it was just plain complicated.

    Had a look at the group's web and there's a link on this page for the EGM. It also states about backlotts on the AGM agenda. I received our leaflet about the EGM today ! ( Did'nt notice it until I found it on my countertop a few mins ago !! ). Here's the link ;
    http://www.castletownresidentsassociation.com/5.html


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    #22
    On the fence
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭On the fence


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULjCSK0oOlI&feature=related

    Paul Simon said "Get these mutts away from me , you know, I don't find this stuff amusing anymore".
    On the contrary it becomes more amusing and fascinating. As a "blow in" to Castletown North I wonder about all these "incidents and accidents hints and allegations"
    It does not seem too long ago that people were horrified when the OPW considered erecting a fence around Castletown House. Woe betide anyone who sought to fence Castletown residents out of their precious green open space. That attitude might seem ok.
    Or is it? On further reading into this it seems some residents have already fenced off green open space to the exclusion of the rest of the residents.
    Is this a case of the tail wagging the dog in the manger?
    Then I wake up thinking I'm in a dream or worse still a nightmare. I find I am now living in Castletown North and ponder how our brethren in the South feel about being segregated from us.
    Was Johnathan Swift prophetic in bequeathing money to build a psychiatric hospital? Did he foresee the schizophrenic nature of the future Castletown?
    Maybe now is a good time to crack a few nuts.
    People of Castletown North and South don't be taken in by the slick words of some supposedly proposed policy or other.
    Read between the lines before the open green disappears into space.
    I am looking forward to the next two amusing and entertaining episodes i.e. the AGM and the EGM. Must remember to renew my subscription as I wouldn’t want to risk exclusion on the night.


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    #23
    Altered state of mind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭Altered state of mind


    second wrote: »
    A lot of people thought there were cloaks and daggers there when in fact it was just plain complicated.

    http://www.castletownresidentsassociation.com/5.html



    The Raven. : We are talking here about the legal rights of the residents in Castletown, which are not too complicated to understand.

    I guess people can make things complicated when it suits them.


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    #24
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    I rang one of the members this morning. To be honest, he said they have come from a stage of only having 3 people trying to do everything to now having more people there to help out on the committee.
    For years there has been negotiations regarding the backlotts which never really came to a conclusion which has been frustrating everyone just the same as the taking in charge. Now it seems as though there is someone in KCC who is actually only recently on board and tasked with resolving the issue. ( he said )
    He stated that for a long period of time there actually was NO progress on the issue no matter what was tried with KCC and nothing new to report. It has only been in the last couple of weeks that any form of definite progress has really been made and that as soon as something concrete was put forward by KCC, they immediately went to call for an EGM to put it to everyone in the estate. He said it was too important to have a rushed debate on it at the AGM although there will be an update and detail for the EGM given by the member who has been working on this for years on behalf of Castletown, with the KCC.
    In fairness, he said that they were trying to do their best on lots of different issues but acknowledged that yes, there are areas that they still need to work on - they "would like to have a P.R.O. who could help with getting all the information out there all the time" but as of yet dont. They had been "delivering newsletters regularly until they were complained to about delivering junk mail" !!!
    They have a web site which they try to keep updated as much as possible ( most associations dont have one ) but once again he said it's hard without having someone dedicated to that area to keep on top of everything - "everyone is voluntary and gives of their time freely" and as a result, everyone is trying their best but yes, some things fall "through the cracks".
    When I asked about 'unknown representative' he said the association were keeping the issue live with constant pressure on the KCC to come to a resolution that would be such as to suit the views of residents- and that is why the EGM has been called - to get these views. The last round of 'views' was some years ago when it was thought they might have been coming to a final resolution but that did'nt happen and that they now need to get the up to date views of residents and put them forward.
    There was lots more he explained, which I for one now actually appreciate and see where they're coming from.
    This is my summary of what I got from the conversation, but please don't quote my quotes as this is my take on it for what it's worth.
    Anyway, just letting you know what I found out.


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    #25
    Fire_fly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Fire_fly


    Altered state of mind wrote: »
    If the CRA are serious about representing all the residents why are they not informing them of the "progress" they have been making on their behalf.
    With only 3 weeks to the egm we need the information upfront now.
    On what basis has KCC accepted the CRA as representative of all the people of Castletown.
    Not all residents are members of the CRA and not all members of the residents association necessarily agree with the views of the Committee.:mad:

    I'm sure I'm putting my head on a chopping block here but what the hell...
    Castletown estate has approx 770 house...the CRA committee has approx 10 members...
    The committee is open to all members of the estate and all help is appreciated and very much needed, their are subcommittees in place so people can pick and choose which areas they are interested in or be involved in all areas, they meet the 1st Tuesday of every month in the Kildrought downstairs..no secret passwords of disguises needed..just bring your owning drink money! The CRA cannot inform people about something in which they have very little information on, they have not been selected by KCC to represent the residents and have not formed one joint opinion on what should be done with these areas.
    I attended my first AGM as a resident last year for this particular topic, the dreaded back-lots/green areas, it is MY opinion that these areas should be cleaned up, secured at night and open during the day for all the children to use. I grew up in this estate spending most of my summer days playing in these areas..why should my children be any different.. they are our areas...and I am prepared to fight for them.
    I'm one of those people that you drive by, out cleaning and planting and sweeping this estate on my time, I've shed blood (many a blister) sweat and I'm sure tears after tomorrows AGM....it really bugs me to read some of the stuff posted about this estate and the way its managed...action speak louder than words...so get up off your computer chair and get out and do something..
    Looking forward to seeing you all especially you Raven at our next clean-up...


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    #26
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    Wow !


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    #27
    Fire_fly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Fire_fly


    Yeah maybe a bit OTT - sorry it's not a mellow Monday!!


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    #28
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    After digesting that, I'd like to say thanks to you and the other helpers that do put in the effort to try and keep the estate looking in good condition. I wonder just how it would look if there was no one out doing it - terrible I expect.
    I get the feeling that there is frustration at the lack of support ? or lack of getting anywhere with whatever issues cause problems ? Is that because of the departments you are dealing with or is it just that there are not enough of you to do it ?
    I personally could'nt see myself getting involved as it seems like a pure thankless job if what is shown here is anything to go by, but I do commend your collective efforts. I do also see the concerns of others also but....take it easy people - these are volunteers ! Volunteers who from what I can see and hear, are doing their best while the rest of us all float along.


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    #29
    dustfree
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭dustfree


    Maybe instead of muddying the waters with talk of 'Castletown north' and 'Castletown south', which is just a geographical designation to help visitors find addresses in the estate, people should actually go the meetings and put themselves forward and get involved. I got notice of the EGM today and will certainly go that meeting to get an up to date on the whole back-lots issue.


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    #30
    Fire_fly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Fire_fly


    Your right Second it is a thankless job and I was a floater..but I wanted something done and the best way to get something done is to do it yourself, so they say..and I've met some funny and interesting people in the process..

    Anyone who has had any dealing with KCC will know the brick walls you hit over and over again and again!!


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    #31
    second
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭second


    Just a clarification - the signs at both entrances - I've seen them - they say ;
    North "entrance", South "entrance",
    not just north and south.
    I think you're right - no sign ( excuse the pun ) of trying to segregate the estate, just plain and simple signs !


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