Is Murgha child abuse?

browndress · 28-12-2009 8:40am #1

I have a friend who uses this punishment on her children, ages 8 to 15. They live abroad. She calls it telling them to "make murgha". I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland. I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

silverharp · 28-12-2009 10:55am

thankfully I had to look that one up. Seems a bit exteme, I would have thought at that age access to mobile phone credit or not would be more then enough. lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murga_punishment

Murgha (also spelled murga) (Urdu: مرغا); is a form of corporal punishment used in South Asia, (India, Pakistan) primarily in educational institutions [1], and by the police who use it as a punishment for petty crimes and eve teasing (sexual harassment), usually administered in public-view [2][3][4][5]

Murgha means Rooster (literally "male adult chicken") in Urdu and Hindi. This is a punishment in which the punished person takes the position of a "murgha" [6]. This is done by squatting, and then bringing the arms between the legs and firmly holding the ears. It can become very painful after a few minutes, and can also be used as a position for spanking, though it is rarely used.

Khannie · 28-12-2009 11:30am

We use grounding and / or lack of television on the youngfella (he's getting more defiant too

). He also kept leaving his bike out in the rain overnight so we prevented him from using it for increasing periods until it magically stopped happening. I wouldn't let defiance = corporal punishment, but different strokes for different folks and all that.

littlebitdull · 28-12-2009 11:37am

Even on children aged 9 & 11 - the old standards of time out, grounding, taking away priviladges will work. Take away their computer/tv/phone time. Don't allow them out with their pals.

But your alternative ... no not a good idea. At all.

Nevyn · 28-12-2009 11:40am

I don't think you have to inflict pain of any sort to disapline a child esp a child of those ages. Have you tried putting then in a restricted time out, making them stand with thier hands down beside thier sides and thier toes and nose touching a wall. Making them stand facking the wall in such a fashion and not being able to fidget or look around with out having an extra minute added on, works pretty well.

CrazyRabbit · 28-12-2009 8:25pm

The problem with any type of corporal punishment is that it stops being effective as the child becomes a teen.

Morally, it may or may not be wrong, but practically, it's not very helpful for the child in the long run. Teaching kids self-discipline at at young age is far far more effective.

Example.....A friends 6 year old son would run off whenever we took him to public places. He ignored instructions to 'come back' and would have to be held tightly by the arm to prevent him from running off. He was given a few slaps on the backside by his mother and some empty threats. It made no difference.

I suggested giving the lad some simple rules of what was acceptable and what was not, along with predefined punishments for breaking those rules. (loss of a toy, no tv etc) The rules were explained to him, and why they were needed. He was given a list of 4 possible punishments, with a warning that he would have to choose one if he broke a rule. Refusing to choose a punishment would result in all 4 punishments being applied.

He broke a rule within minutes. He was stopped, and told to choose a punishment. He refused and started crying, so all 4 punishments where applied (no more empty threats). His mum continued with this 'training' and the next time he was taken out (to the zoo), he didn't run off once and he did everything he was told to do. In just 3 weeks he was a totally changed child. He quickly realised that he had to punish himself whenever he broke a rule. Quite an effective deterrent!

Dilynnio · 28-12-2009 8:29pm

browndress wrote: »

I have a friend who uses this punishment on her children, ages 8 to 15. They live abroad. She calls it telling them to "make murgha". I wonder if this punishment is considered child abuse in Ireland. I have been looking at alternative punishments for my daughters who are 9 and 11. They are beginning, particularly the older one, to become defiant.

And one wonders how these kids grow up to be messed up!

Parents have a lot to answer for!

we'llallhavetea_old · 28-12-2009 11:59pm

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

The problem with any type of corporal punishment is that it stops being effective as the child becomes a teen.

Morally, it may or may not be wrong, but practically, it's not very helpful for the child in the long run. Teaching kids self-discipline at at young age is far far more effective.

Example.....A friends 6 year old son would run off whenever we took him to public places. He ignored instructions to 'come back' and would have to be held tightly by the arm to prevent him from running off. He was given a few slaps on the backside by his mother and some empty threats. It made no difference.

I suggested giving the lad some simple rules of what was acceptable and what was not, along with predefined punishments for breaking those rules. (loss of a toy, no tv etc) The rules were explained to him, and why they were needed. He was given a list of 4 possible punishments, with a warning that he would have to choose one if he broke a rule. Refusing to choose a punishment would result in all 4 punishments being applied.

He broke a rule within minutes. He was stopped, and told to choose a punishment. He refused and started crying, so all 4 punishments where applied (no more empty threats). His mum continued with this 'training' and the next time he was taken out (to the zoo), he didn't run off once and he did everything he was told to do. In just 3 weeks he was a totally changed child. He quickly realised that he had to punish himself whenever he broke a rule. Quite an effective deterrent!

genius!

chocgirl · 29-12-2009 2:11am

How long do they have to hold it for?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-12-2009 2:19am

The problem with physical punishments is that, to a certain extent, the just make kids angrier. Especially the defiant ones. The problem with this one, is that you need a submissive child for it to work. If your kids are defiant, you're wasting your time.

Example:

"You've been a bold girl. Get into the Mughra position for five minutes.
"No!"

What you going to do now that you wouldn't have done in the first place?

tudlytops · 29-12-2009 2:35am

I panished my kids with simple things, like taking away toys, privileges,etc., but I am strict and do what i say I'll do.

Example. one of them at the age og about 7.
I told her to tidy up their room, i told her once, i told her twice, the 3rd time i went into the room and said "you have 30 min to tidy up, if you don't i will pick up every item out of place and give it away", sure 30 min later it was still messy, so I picked up 2 black bags full of stuff, made her come with me and gave them to a neighbour who had a few kids and little money, some or so so toys, some were really nice toys, no bother to me, I didn't buy her new ones. She learn her lesson until today and she's now 19.

Another time we were going to the Zoo and one of them stole some money from me, I think he was about 9, i recovered the money, told him he could still come to the Zoo but he would have no money to spend and no allowance for the next 2 month's or so, when we got to the Zoo the other kids all bough food for the animals. Ice cream, pressies, etc, except one, he learn the lesson too.

My parents used physical punishment on me and my siblings, i was always very defiant and it didn't help, i just got worse, to give you an example, after all the beatings didn't work they tried to lock me in the bedroom I got out trhough the window, so they locked the window i got the bed on fire so they had to open the bedroom door and i got out anyway.

Another time i was out late with my sister and she said I think we should go home, I asked why, she said couse mum and dad are going to be mad, so i said, so what, they'll hit me, big deal.

I know this is extreme and most kids don't do it, but i found that if you have one that is more defiant then the norm it will only make matters worse.

tudlytops · 29-12-2009 2:35am

Also don't forget to reward them when they do nice stuff, or do as they were asked.

it goes both ways

nesf · 29-12-2009 5:04am

tudlytops wrote: »

Also don't forget to reward them when they do nice stuff, or do as they were asked.

it goes both ways

Dear God no! Spare the whip/crowbar, spoil the child as my parents used to say. :pac:

browndress · 29-12-2009 8:21am

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 29-12-2009 8:42am

Nice to see that parents are actively seeking to find new and innovative ways to PUNISH their children. Maybe you should question yourselves as parents and maybe educate yourself a little before becomming parents.

Punishment IS the worst thing you can do, your children will never be "normal" if you are to punish them, be it mental or physical. It's extremely negative and does more harm than good.

Do some research into possitive reinforcement, be warned though, this actually requires you to have something of a brain, some effort and determination. Since punishment is so much easier, I can't see many people dropping it any time soon.

If you are going to force your child to hold a position that causes pain, more like a form of torture than anything else, then you are not fit to raise a child, regardless of what you think. Very very bad parent...

nesf · 29-12-2009 9:02am

browndress wrote: »

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

Forcing your child to assume a position where they are guaranteed to feel pain as a form of punishment is really not that different to using a cane in effect or intent. Either way you are using physical pain to punish the child.

Whether it is child abuse is a legal question and not one that can be answered here. I can't imagine social services taking a particularly nice view of it though.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 29-12-2009 10:37am

Adding to what I said earlier, you have already given up on your child when you are looking for new ways to punish them. You have already assumed that they will always need to be punished. You have basically assumed that there is no other alternative but to try out new punishments. This isn't some animal to test on, it's your child FFS. Be very very ashamed of yourself as a parent...

tudlytops · 29-12-2009 12:22pm

nesf wrote: »

Dear God no! Spare the whip/crowbar, spoil the child as my parents used to say. :pac:

I never hit or otherwise physically punished my kids, and always rewarded them, they all turned out just fine, in college or working.

I've been on the receiving end of a whip as you call it, not nice or productive.

Kids should respect you, not fear you.

tudlytops · 29-12-2009 12:25pm

browndress wrote: »

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

I think most people here have replaied to that question with a big YES, but if you need it in plain wording.

YES it is child abuse

You keep thinking that way and you'll see how quick you'll lose them.

Ickle Magoo · 29-12-2009 1:03pm

The fact you even have to ask whether it may be considered child abuse should give you a clue as to suitability, surely.

I don't think using pain &/or shame to make a child listen - or force some kind of respect of your power - in lieu of any effective positive parenting techniques is going to solve any issues about defiance in the longer term, btw.

CrazyRabbit · 30-12-2009 2:05pm

browndress wrote: »

After all the replies I have no answer to the question I asked. I did not ask for suggestions on disciplining children. I believe it is a matter for choice for parents who know their own children to choose punishments. I do not believe in financial punishments for children as I believe that children should be taught to budget and save. Depriving them of money prevents this. My friend says that the parent has to keep a cane in hand in order to force the child to assume the correct position. A neighbour of mine was reported to the social services for caning her 14 year old son whom she caught smoking. Since murgha does not involve beating it should help reduce the use of the cane. I believe that children must always know that there is a worse punishment in the pipeline if they do not conform to the rules.

I'm pretty sure I answered your question in the 1st two paragraphs of my 1st reply. And I took the extra step of outlining alternative actions for behavior modification.

Kosseegan · 30-12-2009 4:22pm

I do not think murgha itself is child abuse but using the cane in association with it may be. There was a case in England a few years ago where a boy who was beaten with a cane by his stepfather, complained to the European Court of Human Rights. The European Court took the son's side of it.
Children need to be punished. I am sick of all of these parents who insist that "my >>>> would never do ,,,,. I do not believe in punishment criticism ..." Why are there so many teenagers being carried home drunk every night of the week? Why are elderly people living in fear in their own homes? Why are young people murdered outside discos? Why are teachers retiring early in droves? The reason is that there is an almost complete breakdown in discipline and manners among children. Parents think that because a child has got into college that their parenting is an unqualified success. The same student may be causing mayhem on a daily basis.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 30-12-2009 6:15pm

Kosseegan wrote: »

I do not think murgha itself is child abuse but using the cane in association with it may be. There was a case in England a few years ago where a boy who was beaten with a cane by his stepfather, complained to the European Court of Human Rights. The European Court took the son's side of it.
Children need to be punished. I am sick of all of these parents who insist that "my >>>> would never do ,,,,. I do not believe in punishment criticism ..." Why are there so many teenagers being carried home drunk every night of the week? Why are elderly people living in fear in their own homes? Why are young people murdered outside discos? Why are teachers retiring early in droves? The reason is that there is an almost complete breakdown in discipline and manners among children. Parents think that because a child has got into college that their parenting is an unqualified success. The same student may be causing mayhem on a daily basis.

Why are all these bad things happening? Well bad parenting combined with years of physical and mental abuse (punishment).

Children do not need to be punished, parents do. There's more ways to raise a child, punishment is the lazy and cowards way of doing it. Look into positive reinforcement... Punishment is wrong in all aspects of raising a child.

Deliverance · 31-12-2009 11:56pm

Kids are a reflection of their parents.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 01-01-2010 12:39pm

Deliverance wrote: »

Kids are a reflection of their parents.

Wow, what a load of bullcrap... really, what an ignorant statement.

Jo King · 01-01-2010 12:47pm

Deliverance wrote: »

Kids are a reflection of their parents.

Very profound, but what does it mean? What is the relevance to this discussion?

LegacyUser · 03-01-2010 2:52pm

I am a 15 year old girl. I have a sister who is 13. Our parents have been giving us this kind of punishment for about two years. They do not call it murga. They call it position punishment. It is painful and embarrassing especially when we have to do it in the hall, where everybody passing can see us, holding our positions.
I still think it is a good punishment. I much prefer it to getting punishment on my bum. Since the positioon punishment started I haven't go any punishment on my bum. Being made to do a position is a warning and that stops me from repeating the offence again.

Kosseegan · 04-01-2010 5:17pm

stillatschool wrote: »

I am a 15 year old girl. I have a sister who is 13. Our parents have been giving us this kind of punishment for about two years. They do not call it murga. They call it position punishment. It is painful and embarrassing especially when we have to do it in the hall, where everybody passing can see us, holding our positions.
I still think it is a good punishment. I much prefer it to getting punishment on my bum. Since the positioon punishment started I haven't go any punishment on my bum. Being made to do a position is a warning and that stops me from repeating the offence again.

You are very lucky. You obviously have parents who love you and who are bringing you up properly.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-01-2010 5:31pm

stillatschool wrote: »

I am a 15 year old girl. I have a sister who is 13. Our parents have been giving us this kind of punishment for about two years. They do not call it murga. They call it position punishment. It is painful and embarrassing especially when we have to do it in the hall, where everybody passing can see us, holding our positions.
I still think it is a good punishment. I much prefer it to getting punishment on my bum. Since the positioon punishment started I haven't go any punishment on my bum. Being made to do a position is a warning and that stops me from repeating the offence again.

There's no such thing as a "good punishment". Is one of your parents a Christian Brother, or something?

anathea · 04-01-2010 6:14pm

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a "good punishment". Is one of your parents a Christian Brother, or something?

There are of course good punishments. I find kneeling on rice, with the knees bare and holding the bible in outstretched arms, a very good punishment. My daughter does not want to repeat her misbehaviour after it.

Kosseegan · 07-01-2010 11:45am

anathea wrote: »

I find kneeling on rice, with the knees bare and holding the bible in outstretched arms, a very good punishment. My daughter does not want to repeat her misbehaviour after it.

You might be getting into child abuse there as the knees become marked after about 5 minutes. have you considered murgha?

Is Murgha child abuse?

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