New terms of use feedback

Darragh · 23-12-2009 8:23pm #1

Folks, typing this on a mobile so forgive formatting.

Several photographers have already expressed concern at the new TOU in relation to Boards.ie using the images without permission.

We have never done this and always done this so the TOU changes nothing. I promise you this.

This term is there to allow us to display your work on mobile sites, on different platforms etc, same as always. It's a technical thing first and foremost.

You retain "ownership" in the sense that you always have. We're not going to publish your photos in a book, use them in ads or anything. We will always ask you if we can use them.

I'll come back tomorrow with a fuller explanation, but if you take anything from this, it's that nothing has changed.

Thanks

Darragh

Fajitas! · 23-12-2009 8:42pm

We have never done this and always done this so the TOU changes nothing. I promise you this.

This term is there to allow us to display your work on mobile sites, on different platforms etc, same as always. It's a technical thing first and foremost.

You retain "ownership" in the sense that you always have. We're not going to publish your photos in a book, use them in ads or anything. We will always ask you if we can use them.

Good stuff, I've probably come across rather strong in the feedback thread, but tbh, it's going to be something you were/are going to come up with.

ThOnda · 23-12-2009 8:45pm

It is more than understandable that offering and providing such brilliant service as the Boards.ie is you need to cover yourselves in legal terms. Just the formulation could be a bit better

Till then, no pictures from me

Darragh · 23-12-2009 8:59pm

Well look, if you can suggest terms wecan incorporate, I'll bring them to the solicitor.

Get us to state "we will not ..." whatever that you want to see there and we'll include it if we can.

ThOnda · 23-12-2009 9:12pm

I am neither lawyer nor English speaker, but could there be something describing that:
"By posting a picture you are giving the Boards.ie the right to display the picture on devices that are used for displaying contents of Internet pages such as Boards.ie. The full copyright stays with the original poster."

Please, translate it to English and/or legal terms on your own

Darragh · 23-12-2009 9:20pm

Nice one

Fajitas! · 23-12-2009 9:26pm

To add to Thonda's post;

"The image will not be edited, modified, reproduced or distributed without your permission."

Again, IANAL, and is something worth running through with one

Kanye · 24-12-2009 3:00pm

Sorry, but I'm finding this goes against the grain a bit. The TOU is unequivocal in what it says. Saying that it doesn't change anything is not a true reflection of the status of the TOU. You may (for now) have a policy that you won't use it against the users, but the reality is that it's phrased in that way for a reason.

Anyone who has any doubts about the implications of the TOU - especially where it has potential to affect their professional lives - should seek independent legal advice before continuing to post their work here.

masteroftherealm · 24-12-2009 3:48pm

Darragh wrote: »

Folks, typing this on a mobile so forgive formatting.

Several photographers have already expressed concern at the new TOU in relation to Boards.ie using the images without permission.

We have never done this and always done this so the TOU changes nothing. I promise you this.

This term is there to allow us to display your work on mobile sites, on different platforms etc, same as always. It's a technical thing first and foremost.

You retain "ownership" in the sense that you always have. We're not going to publish your photos in a book, use them in ads or anything. We will always ask you if we can use them.

I'll come back tomorrow with a fuller explanation, but if you take anything from this, it's that nothing has changed.

Thanks

Darragh

Ok, I get where your coming from Darragh, but having this assurance in a post is not enough.
There needs to be a statement that if Boards.ie Ltd is going to use users media outside of the realm of reproducing content within the forum of the Boards.ie website, written permission must be sought from the copyright holder in question.

masteroftherealm · 24-12-2009 3:50pm

Fajitas! wrote: »

To add to Thonda's post;

"The image will not be edited, modified, reproduced or distributed without your permission."

Again, IANAL, and is something worth running through with one

I would expand this to written permission otherwise implicit permission can be argued for.

Paulw · 24-12-2009 3:50pm

I think section 7.1 is the biggest concern -

By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties.

Especially, the right that boards.ie would have to "use and commercialise" your work, "without any further consent, notice and/or compensation".

I certainly won't be posting any more photos on boards.ie until those words are changed.

Also, I assume that these T&Cs aren't retrospective to previously posted content??

masteroftherealm · 24-12-2009 3:52pm

Yes the above section is ahuge no no. That MUST be removed for there to be a photography and writing and any other user generated content forum.

soccerc · 24-12-2009 4:15pm

I've taken the new TOU to a legal friend and until such time as 7.1 is removed will not be posting images as per his advice.

No amount of posts from Boards.ie reps saying it's not their intention etc the legal position as advised is that Boards can do whatever they want with posted images without the need for any further permission of the copyright holder.

@PaulW - Advise is that it is not retrospective but he wants to see original TOU that I agreed to upon signing up to be certain.

DaireQuinlan · 24-12-2009 4:22pm

but that just counts for 'submissions' right ? What they mean by this (in the normal parlance of these TOUs) is actual suggestions you make with regard to the operation of boards itself, or (in this case) images that you submit to boards administration for whatever reason. This is distinct to material you post as part of a discussion thread. OTOH, IANAL ...

Paulw · 24-12-2009 4:32pm

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

but that just counts for 'submissions' right ? What they mean by this (in the normal parlance of these TOUs) is actual suggestions you make with regard to the operation of boards itself, or (in this case) images that you submit to boards administration for whatever reason. This is distinct to material you post as part of a discussion thread. OTOH, IANAL ...

No, I think you're wrong there.

A submission is anything posted on boards.ie, hence the "submit reply" button when you reply to a thread posting.

DaireQuinlan · 24-12-2009 4:52pm

Paulw wrote: »

No, I think you're wrong there.

A submission is anything posted on boards.ie, hence the "submit reply" button when you reply to a thread posting.

I think you're mistaken, i think the word 'submission' is used in a very specific sense, to describe what I talk about above. It's boiler plate text, and probably is in the existing T&C (if there is one). It doesn't apply to us at all, only the other clause about usage. Anyhow, I'm sure this will be clarified at some point.

democrates · 24-12-2009 5:11pm

7: The content you post on Boards.ie
...
By posting any Material on or through Boards.ie, you grant us a limited license to use, modify, publicly perform, publicly display, reproduce, and distribute such Materials in connection with Boards.ie or the promotion thereof.
The license you grant to us is non-exclusive, royalty free and fully paid, sub licensable, and worldwide.

I can understand peoples reservations, IANAL but according to the American Society of Media Photographers that "sub licensable" group of terms mean boards can sell on user content without paying the author/photographer/programmer.

It's limited "in connection with Boards.ie or the promotion thereof" but if a stock photo site buys one share in boards.ie and/or visa versa does that constitute a connection? Maybe this could be tightened up to "solely for the purpose of providing the Boards.ie discussion boards service".

I think you could live without the promotion term, reading out a post on the radio the odd time (the users post now propagated to a radio stations audio recordings collection) is surely outweighed by the desire of users to have this accumulation of their content protected from future risk. I can't think of one circumstance where user content is necessary for successful promotion, I understand how it's convenient, but no more than that imho.

If boards were bought out in the future, new owners could take a mercenary approach and this part of the TOC seems so vague it may leave users exposed. Though revisions of legal docs are good practice in corporate governance, conspiracy senses will be tingling with this change being implemented on Christmas week instead of waiting to include revisions addressing concerns in the new year...

I find it hard to imagine that boards.ie is out to pull a fast one, it wouldn't chime with the spirit in which boards.ie has operated in the past, and which is laudable. Besides, maybe a controversial TOC would be a poison pill for a buyer who'd be under suspicion by default rather than an advantage, which goes against the sell out theory.

Anyway I've got presents to wrap now and drinks to quaff, Happy Christmas to all in and on boards.ie!

tororosso · 24-12-2009 10:47pm

Paulw wrote: »

I think section 7.1 is the biggest concern -

By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties.

Especially, the right that boards.ie would have to "use and commercialise" your work, "without any further consent, notice and/or compensation".

I certainly won't be posting any more photos on boards.ie until those words are changed.

Also, I assume that these T&Cs aren't retrospective to previously posted content??

Geez, that really does speak for itself :mad: I have never posted a photo up on the site but have been toying with the idea of putting up the odd one for critique etc. Half the fun will be taken out of this forum if photographers stop submitting (and they will stop after having read the post that Paul W just referred to) to the threads...I think this needs to be cleared up promptly or else there will be a sudden image drain.....:(

ozt9vdujny3srf · 25-12-2009 2:16am

Pix.ie TOU wrote:

We do not claim ownership of photos that you choose to Post to Pixie. Pixie neither has nor wants any ownership of your photos. However, by posting or making photos available through Pixie, you hereby grant:

to the Company, a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable licence to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publicly perform and publicly display photos and/or graphics you Post on Pixie, solely for the purpose of providing the Pixie service.

to the Company, a perpetual, irrevocable and fully sub-licensable license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display Content other than photos and graphics (in whole or in part) and to incorporate such Content into other works in any format or medium now known or later developed.

.

masteroftherealm · 25-12-2009 2:20am

Yeah that would pretty much work for me, Ill pass it by my lawyer still if its worded like that but Id be happy with that.

Covey · 03-01-2010 11:23pm

Among the updated terms is this:

"By making a submission to us, you grant a nonexclusive, irrevocable, worldwide, perpetual, unlimited, assignable, sublicenseable, fully paid up and royalty free right to us to copy, prepare derivative works from, improve, distribute, publish, remove, retain, add, and use and commercialise, in any way now known or in the future discovered, anything that you submit to us, without any further consent, notice and/or compensation to you or to any third parties."

I know a lot of discussion has taken place with regard to similar terms in Photography competitions and the like.

Anyone find this offputting regarding the photography forum?

PCPhoto · 03-01-2010 11:25pm

just like all these sites ...another term and condition which when noticed means think twice before posting up a pic.

I wont be posting any pics - but then again - I'm a lurker ..... prefer reading and making the occasional comment.

Paulw · 03-01-2010 11:26pm

I also won't be posting any picts, but will continue discussions and comments.

Covey · 03-01-2010 11:27pm

Forgot to say I also won't be posting any more pics but will join in in discussions like the above.

ThOnda · 03-01-2010 11:37pm

I am busy with my work, so those few minutes spent here won't include posting a picture. And yes, this forum takes me only few minutes a day due to many reasons. Why? It might be something that I cannot cope with accepting honest opinions. And the opposite.

pullandbang · 03-01-2010 11:38pm

People not posting pics will destroy the photography forum. I hope the powers that be will see sense and change the T&C.

smelltheglove · 03-01-2010 11:52pm

I don't think I will be posting any pics until there is a change in this.

It is unfortunate as there will be less enjoyment for us, maybe we will revet to posting flickr/pix links but wont be the same.

When did this take effect?

Valentia · 03-01-2010 11:53pm

My understanding is that these are not active yet. Will read through the "Feedback" forum tomorrow but if they remain as stated above it will rightly shanghai this place!

Covey · 03-01-2010 11:54pm

It says Revised: 23/12/2009.

m_stan · 04-01-2010 12:00am

Why not just post a link to your personal website / flickr etc? Surely a link can't be claimed under these t's&c's?

Crispin · 04-01-2010 12:00am

Thanks Covey for pointing this out. Totally ruins the photo forum for me. Really disappointed. I will not be posting any more pictures and I will miss the opportunity to see some very talented photographer's work on this forum. Can we put together some sort of formal response from the forum members in an attempt to overturn this change in the conditions?????

New terms of use feedback

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