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Witches -the death of Bridget Cleary in 1894

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    #2
    FiSe
    Registered Users Posts: 821 ✭✭✭FiSe


    There is a link in the comments to the RTE site:

    http://www.rte.ie/tv/hiddenhistory/fairywife.html

    I remeber watching the documentary bask then too, but don't remember all the details. The cottage is still in use, I believe...


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    #3
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    It was horrific.


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    #4
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    As far as I can make sense of it a mixture of stupidity, viciousness and superstition.


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    #5
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I dunno.

    I think there was a bit of jealousy. She was fairly successful -nice house, a dressmaker and had an egg business.


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    #6
    JuliusCaesar
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭JuliusCaesar


    There was a play in the Peacock about this a year or two ago.


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    #7
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    CDfm wrote: »
    I dunno.

    I think there was a bit of jealousy. She was fairly successful -nice house, a dressmaker and had an egg business.

    If you'd know the background of most witchcraft trials that have ever been conducted by the inquisition and other very savoury kangaroo courts in European history I think you'll find that jealousy combined with superstition, stupidity and often avarice have been the motivation for a lot of cruel deaths. Although Bridget Cleary hadn't been convicted of witchcraft in some sort of a "court" the likely motivation behind her death and the cruel nature of her murder is quite similar to what has been inflected on thousands of European women in the course of history.


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    #8
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    meathstevie wrote: »
    the likely motivation behind her death and the cruel nature of her murder is quite similar to what has been inflected on thousands of European women in the course of history.

    You could say the same about homosexuals or indeed anyone who is a little bit different.

    In her case she managed to get the best house in the village and had money and her hubby was a cooper. So they were both skilled workers.

    It seems to me that she was very smart.

    Looking up the 1911 census on ancestors these two were quite well off and near contemporaies of an ancient uncle of my dads who you wouldn't class as stupid or supersticious.

    I don't buy into the folklore bit.


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    #9
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    As far as I know, she was considered 'weird' by the locals, and there was the suggestion of piseógs or curses laid on neighbouring lands over generations in a dispute.

    Also, and sorry have no sources for this- but I think, there was some dark family history and situation going on there regarding abuse and incest, so they might have been an easy household to target as being engaged in the 'dark arts', and she was the only female in the household.

    Its just horrible. A very dark fate for a high spirited young woman. Ireland is full of these dark stories from folklore, no, not all folklore is nice, but it resonates the longest.

    What is also interesting is that this story was used as evidence by the anti-home rulers at the time that Ireland, and the Irish people, themselves were too barbaric to govern itself.


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    #10
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I am a bit cynical and from what I have read it seems that the judge was expecting an ordinary murder case.

    Here is an extract on Murder and Insanity in the 19th Century by Pauline Prior of Queens University Belfast and if you look at it Michael Cleary should surely have expected to be executed for murder.

    As a defence it worked somewhat.



    The relative ease with which men who killed female relatives were acquitted of murder on the grounds of insanity is confirmed by Carolyn Conley, whose study of crimes reported to the Royal Irish Constabulary during the period 1866–1892 found that homicide involving a family member had the highest chance of a criminal lunacy conviction, when compared to other homicides. Of the 175 people convicted for killing a family member, 17 percent were declared insane.47


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1472557/

    There were rumours that she was having an affair and some of her relatives were involved in covering up her murder.

    They were also unusual in not having any children.


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    #11
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    But is Bridget Cleary's case different from hundreds if not thousands of women who faced the same sort of judgement over the past few centuries across Europe?

    It seems like there was a horrific case of familial abuse and torture going on, yet she became the victim who the rest of the family or community said deserved their fate.


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    #12
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    :
    Originally Posted by Darlughda viewpost.gif
    But is Bridget Cleary's case different from hundreds if not thousands of women who faced the same sort of judgement over the past few centuries across Europe?

    It seems like there was a horrific case of familial abuse and torture going on, yet she became the victim who the rest of the family or community said deserved their fate.

    Sorry please explain.

    I haven't seen any evidence of anything other than she was murdered.

    It seems to me that a defence of witchraft was tried and she was suppsedly interested in folklore but then wasnt Lady Gregory, WB Yates, Douglas Hyde and Arthur Conan Doyle.

    I saw that Edward Woodward has died and he was the actor who played the policeman who was burned in the 70s movie the Wicker Man. A story of the occult set in Cornwall .

    So my take on it was that it was a legal defence and fiction like the movie.That the witchcraft folklore may have been a hobby -that the guy was convicted of manslaughter must mean the jury didn't believe him.

    EDIT - I had a look at the local census from 1911 and the majority of their contemperaries could read and write and so were not illiterate .

    http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Mullinahone/Ballyvadlea/

    EDIT: It just made me wonder whether in this context the guy was trying to avoid execution.

    I do agree that witchcraft was used maliciously to cause problems for others. More women then men were accused and convicted but this seems fairly unique.


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    #13
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Darlughda wrote: »
    But is Bridget Cleary's case different from hundreds if not thousands of women who faced the same sort of judgement over the past few centuries across Europe?

    It seems like there was a horrific case of familial abuse and torture going on, yet she became the victim who the rest of the family or community said deserved their fate.

    Sorry if I came accross as being dismissive Darlughda.

    I had heard about the Cleary killing years ago and the manner of it has always shocked me for its sheer depravity. I grew up in a small town and as a teenager a woman was killed by a younger neighbour and the case was reduced to manslaughter on a technicality. The killer served four years.

    Her injuries were fairly horrific so at one level I agree with you and I think the verdict should have been guilty of murder.


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    #14
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    Yippee managed to dig up the book about Bridget Cleary, its by Angela Bourke (and although I personally think she's a bit mean about Maud Gonne,) she is a sh1t hot historian. Most of the rest of what I say about Bridget Cleary here are sourced from her, and there other sources for whatever else that I can give if you are interested.

    The witch trials that spread across Continental Europe were horrific, and targeted all sorts of individuals (mainly women, although there were also men). Motives ranged from basic fear of the 'other' or 'different' in the community, to jealousy to avarice, and political gain. Not to mention a few other motives-Although by the 19th century the worst of this had died out, the crime of witchcraft:it was still on the statute books.

    However, Ireland was always different.For two reasons:

    Firstly, the saxon idea of a witch was and is not part of the Gaelic Irish rural identity, (with the exception of the saxon-irish descendants that have revisited this homogenous view of an Irish Gaelic witch).
    Secondly, we had/have? a faery tradition or faith here that co-existed with the christian and later catholic identity.
    It is still hard to discuss the older religion of the faery faith in Ireland, in my experience.

    This horrific story of Bridget Clearly was primarily, imo, one of domestic abuse: violent and sexual.

    It is also the story of how a community can be evil.
    There was a number of relations and neighbours witnessing and passively partaking in the ordeal of fire and other torture rituals she was put through.She was a strong willed and successful women-economically and sexually. She was an easy hate or villification target for a community that she had risen through.

    I just think it was another case of serious abuse and violence that was somehow mitigated by a patronizing view by the courts of the time of local folk, backwardness and superstition.

    Primarily, it was a case of how easily a woman can be disposed of, because of what a court can believe are mitigating factors.


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    #15
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thanks - my understanding had been that it was a Saxon thing too with Dame Alice Kyteler in Kilkenny being the most famous in Medieval times. The accusations arose thru the death of 3 or 4 husbands and inheritence disputes etc.

    In the 17th Century with King James ascending to the English and Scottish thrones he wrote a book Daemonologie which upped the ante and you had Florence Newton the Witch of Youghal.

    http://sacred-texts.com/pag/iwd/iwd06.htm

    Here is an interesting link in Scotland which says there was a 85/15 ratio of female to male accused with a 10% conviction rate.

    http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/index.html

    I think in Ireland witch trials were a lot rarer and you had banshees etc and superstitions more pranks than evil.

    Now presumeably most of these accusations were made by somebody who had a grudge so it would be interesting to know the gender of the accused. Florence Newton was accused by a woman.

    In the Salem Witch Trials in Massachusetts the accusers were young girls.

    So you had property and grudge based accusations.

    In England you also had Witchfinders and I wonder how the breakdown was really.

    In the Cleary case I think it was simple murder in rural ireland.

    The Cleary case intrigued me and you are probably


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    #16
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    my understanding had been that it was a Saxon thing too with Dame Alice Kyteler in Kilkenny being the most famous in Medieval times. The accusations arose thru the death of 3 or 4 husbands and inheritence disputes etc.

    The word witch is a very emotive word, especially for many women. There is the Irish tradition I come from that for the sake of survival has learnt to say a witch doesn't exist because there is no word for one in the Irish Language! :D
    In the 17th Century with King James ascending to the English and Scottish thrones he wrote a book Daemonologie which upped the ante and you had Florence Newton the Witch of Youghal.

    http://sacred-texts.com/pag/iwd/iwd06.htm

    IS that the same James VI of Scotland who wrote and implemented the Malefius Maleficirum (or something like that), now he was a serious case of a crazed character who demanded that 'witches' raised storms for him and got spooked by the results? The horror he inflicted on Scotland!
    Here is an interesting link in Scotland which says there was a 85/15 ratio of female to male accused with a 10% conviction rate.

    http://www.shc.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/index.html

    In Europe and America between 1450-1750, the number is estimated at 1110,000 prosecuted for witchcraft. 60,000 is the estimated number given. 75-80% female, 20-25% male. Source Male Witches in Early Modern Europe by Lara Apps and Andrew Gow.

    However there are traditions that believe that maybe millions were killed in holocaust of a pre-christian tradition spanning a few centuries.
    I think in Ireland witch trials were a lot rarer and you had banshees etc and superstitions more pranks than evil.

    Pranks and supestitions yes. But what do you mean by evil, in terms of an individual being persecuted for witchcraft? If they admit to being a witch, do you really think that makes them evil?
    Now presumeably most of these accusations were made by somebody who had a grudge so it would be interesting to know the gender of the accused. Florence Newton was accused by a woman.

    What difference does the gender of the person making the accusations make? Women can be vile to each other of course, regardless of what horror is being perpertrated to any woman just the same as men, when motives of community unrest, jealousy, avarice and political and social strategy are on the agenda, horrible things can be done to neighbours, relations and friends.


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    #17
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Darlughda wrote: »
    The word witch is a very emotive word, especially for many women. There is the Irish tradition I come from that for the sake of survival has learnt to say a witch doesn't exist because there is no word for one in the Irish Language! :D

    I don't think you had a concept of a witch in Gaelic culture - yes you had healers or banshees but generally they had only one special power rather than a gateway to Satan thing.

    IS that the same James VI of Scotland who wrote and implemented the Malefius Maleficirum (or something like that), now he was a serious case of a crazed character who demanded that 'witches' raised storms for him and got spooked by the results? The horror he inflicted on Scotland!

    Interestingly enough Shakespeares plays and the Witches in MacBeth and Banquos ghost were all down to appealling to this guy. Shakespeares Acting Troup were under royal patronage and called the Kings Men.

    http://www.william-shakespeare.org.uk/shakespeare-chamberlains-men.htm

    so witches were in fashion for a period under James and this is reflected in the culture of the era such as Shakespeares plays which refected his interests.

    In Europe and America between 1450-1750, the number is estimated at 1110,000 prosecuted for witchcraft. 60,000 is the estimated number given. 75-80% female, 20-25% male. Source Male Witches in Early Modern Europe by Lara Apps and Andrew Gow.

    YUp thats about right.
    However there are traditions that believe that maybe millions were killed in holocaust of a pre-christian tradition spanning a few centuries.

    Speculation and we should deal with fact as we have no idea what happened.
    Pranks and supestitions yes. But what do you mean by evil, in terms of an individual being persecuted for witchcraft? If they admit to being a witch, do you really think that makes them evil?

    I mean faeries turning the milk sour kind of thing. As opposed to Demonic superstition.


    What difference does the gender of the person making the accusations make? Women can be vile to each other of course, regardless of what horror is being perpertrated to any woman just the same as men, when motives of community unrest, jealousy, avarice and political and social strategy are on the agenda, horrible things can be done to neighbours, relations and friends.

    Its more about what the motivations were


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    #18
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    gateway to Satan thing.

    Seiously, CDFM wtf?


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    #19
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Darlughda wrote: »
    gateway to Satan thing.

    Seiously, CDFM wtf?

    That was the nature of this type of allegation and I read a lot of history and while I am not interested in witchcraft per se the Satan thing was a big issue.

    See what I mean with these Swedish examples as the nature of it is a lot different to England where you had the whole heresy thing.

    From Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A4vle_Boy
    But now a special witch commission was created to examine and try witches, and many women were tried and executed on the strength of the testimonies of children who claimed to have been abducted and taken to Satan by them. The Gävle-Boy had started all this, and the children were now led by the teenage girls Lisbeth Carlsdotter and the Maids of Myra, Annika and Agnes. During all this, the Gävle-Boy was asked by the court if the Devil was upset and he testified that he was.
    During all these events, the Gävle-Boy was described as triumphant; he was not afraid, not even when he was sentenced to death, but seemed happy to be the center of attention. He was not insane or stupid; rather he was intelligent, but he was most likely a mythomaniac.

    The Saxon/Protestant tradition of witchcraft seems to be more religious than fairies or faith healing.

    There was a blast of Swedish Cases that are fairly well documented. Like this Wiki extract from the Gavle Boy who was the accuser in a lot of cases and who was executed at 13 for false testimomy
    Margareta Remmer, who had challenged the social order by, as a poor orphan, marrying the wealthy city Captain Remmer, asked the testifying girl: "Think, girl, was that really what you saw? This is a question of my life", the girl broke down.

    An example of accusation brought about by jealously

    Lisbeth Carlsdotter and the Maids of Myra had behaved in a manner which made them less well seen by the authorities lately; during an execution, Lisbeth Carlsdotter was overheard by many witnesses saying to the Maids of Myra: "If it were up to me, there would soon be only three women left in this city!" During a trial, she said: "Even the counts know who Lisbeth Carlsdotter is - who the hell are you?", and during one testimony, she made the mistake by trying to accuse Countess De la Gardie, wife of Magnus Gabriel De la Gardie, the king's own aunt Princess Maria Eufrosyne of Pfalz, and her sister-in-law countess Maria Sofia De la Gardie, of witchcraft. Accusations of that sort against such people could never be accepted, and the result was the destruction of her credibilty as a witness.
    Many of the witnesses began to say that they had been told what to say by the Gävle-Boy, by Lisbeth Carlsdotter and by the Maids of Myra.

    The stocklolm trials were like the X factor for the accusers like Lisbeth Carlsdotter who was well known inpired fear so it gave her status.

    The accusers in many cases seem to have been children.





    The end of the trials happened like this.

    Johan Johansson Grijs would be executed together with the other witches. A few days before his execution, Erik Noraelius, a priest and member of the of the Witchcraft Commission, came to visit him. Noraelius, who had begun to doubt the children’s stories, cross-examined the boy who contradicted himself all the time. Finally, Johan confessed that all his stories were lies.

    Then Margareta Staffansdotter, the wife of Captain Jakob Remmer, was accused of witchcraft. But she had the money and the power to defend herself against the accusations and the children couldn’t even describe how she looked. One by one, they confessed that they had been lying. That was the end of the witch trials in Stockholm. The last woman who was executed as a witch was Malin Mattsdotter. Moreover, she was burnt alive (the only one known in Sweden) after a request by Urban Hjärne, who is known as the one who put an end to the Swedish witch trials.

    All the adult witches who were waiting for execution were released, but instead the court sentenced four of the children to death. The first one up for execution was Johan Johansson Grijs from Gävle. He was hanged in November 1676 at Hötorget, 13 years old.

    The full article is here http://www.vasa.gavle.se/projekt/Witch/Text/Witchesgefle.htm

    The Gavle Boys mother had been executed as a witch so he had been viewed as a bit of an expert witness or he may have been motivated by revenge.

    Anyway - back to Bridget Cleary - it stretches credibility for me that a pocket of people in Tipperary in the late 19th Century who could read an write and were reasonably well off seriously believed in fairies.

    I do agree with you that in was a horrible event but the story seems concocted to me. It still got Michael Cleary away from the noose.


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    #20
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I know its off topic but I have found these estimates for numbers executed for Witchcraft in Europe

    The source is Dr Robert Hutton who from records gives the total as 12,500 confirmed executions from records in Europe and the New World from Medieval Times 1300 to 1800 with estimates of between 35,000 to 65,000 of executions.

    For example, there is no record of the execution of Florence Newton of Youghal for Witchcraft but it is more likely than not that it happened.

    http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/current.htm


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    #21
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    Thanks CDfm, for the info on Florence Newton, here be wiki linky if anyone is interested and if anyone has any other sources for Florence that would be great to hear! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Newton, The Swedish witch stuff was good too.
    CDfm wrote: »
    The Saxon/Protestant tradition of witchcraft seems to be more religious than fairies or faith healing.

    Well, certainly you had the whole idea, popularized by our Scottish friend, James VI, of the witches being in league with the devil, a satanic force that threatened civilization at the time, whereas the faery faith that existed in Ireland was seen as more benign, perhaps, as the fallen race that had fallen to a lower level after some of the biblical beginning of time wars began.
    W.Y Evans Wentz in his 1911 'The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries' really does detail well aspects of what this belief entailed.

    Anyway - back to Bridget Cleary - it stretches credibility for me that a pocket of people in Tipperary in the late 19th Century who could read an write and were reasonably well off seriously believed in fairies.
    Hard to understand from our 2009 point of view. Nonetheless, not only did Bridget Cleary and her husband, Michael Kennedy emerge from an illiterate labourer class, they had risen out of it, there is never any clear demarcation in history where one tradition ends and another begins. It is true that the faery faith tradition was not only very strong, but co-existed with the christian tradition, although the stigma of such a belief was being felt and denied by people at that time.

    Besides, an arguing atheist nowadays will also exclaim disbelief at how an educated individual can believe in god and religion etc.

    This may shock you, but I am educated to MA level, and I would have beliefs and understandings that are in accordance with the older faery faith of Ireland.

    Bear in mind, with the rise of the Catholic middle class in the later 19th Century, the faery faith was a source of embarrasment to the ideas of progress and civilisation. So, it became a source of shame to be denied as it is to this day.

    There is no doubt that the Faery beliefs existed, yet I do agree with you, that her husband escaped the noose. What also shocked me was the fact that she was buried in the dead of the night, with no neighbours or family present, granted most of them were in custody for her murder, however, you know how important funerals are in rural Ireland. 2009 or 1895. (Btw, it was March 1895 she was killed not 1894).

    This quote is from Angela Bourke's "The Burning of Bridget Cleary". (P.38)

    "among the documented cases of changeling-burning in Ireland in the Nineteenth Century-Bridget Cleary's is the only one which involves and adult victim".

    Evil vile stuff. So, whether you believe how entrenched the faery faith or more accurately, warped superstitions, were in peoples life is one thing, fact is a lot of stuff happened because of this.

    Excuse the mess up with quoting-I'm struggling with it! Must be dem pesky faeries...


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    #22
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Darlughda wrote: »
    Thanks CDfm, for the info on Florence Newton, here be wiki linky if anyone is interested and if anyone has any other sources for Florence that would be great to hear! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Newton, The Swedish witch stuff was good too.

    Thanks - I thought you would like it.

    Hard to understand from our 2009 point of view. Nonetheless, not only did Bridget Cleary and her husband, Michael Kennedy emerge from an illiterate labourer class, they had risen out of it, there is never any clear demarcation in history where one tradition ends and another begins.

    But both of them could read and write and he was a cooper - a tradesman and relative to the general population they were educated.
    Besides, an arguing atheist nowadays will also exclaim disbelief at how an educated individual can believe in god and religion etc.

    This may shock you, but I am educated to MA level, and I would have beliefs and understandings that are in accordance with the older faery faith of Ireland.

    I believe in God and have mixed views on religion.

    There is nothing wrong with having a spiritual belief -if thats how you express it.
    Bear in mind, with the rise of the Catholic middle class in the later 19th Century, the faery faith was a source of embarrasment to the ideas of progress and civilisation. So, it became a source of shame to be denied as it is to this day.

    There is no doubt that the Faery beliefs existed,

    Read up on Sherlock Holmes (Arthur Conan Doyle) and the Cottingley Fairies. So belief was not that far fetched.

    The occult and supernatural were fairly big things. Darwin was just a few years previously.

    http://www.cottingleyconnect.org.uk/fairies.htm

    yet I do agree with you, that her husband escaped the noose.

    He was convicted-so the jury didnt believe him.

    I wonder how much of the media coverage was anti Irish. It was used as a political argument against Irish Independence.

    It would be interesting to see if the judge left any published view on the case.

    What also shocked me was the fact that she was buried in the dead of the night, with no neighbours or family present, granted most of them were in custody for her murder, however, you know how important funerals are in rural Ireland. 2009 or 1895. (Btw, it was March 1895 she was killed not 1894).

    This quote is from Angela Bourke's "The Burning of Bridget Cleary". (P.38)

    "among the documented cases of changeling-burning in Ireland in the Nineteenth Century-Bridget Cleary's is the only one which involves and adult victim".

    Evil vile stuff. So, whether you believe how entrenched the faery faith or more accurately, warped superstitions, were in peoples life is one thing, fact is a lot of stuff happened because of this.

    That suggests that there were others except this was documented.

    There was the docterine at law of Corpus Delecti - you needed a body to convict of murder -otherwise you were dealing with a missing person.Was this the reason for the clandestine burial?

    There were also prejudice and burial restrictions on suicides and the mentally ill.

    So I wonder if there were other stigmas involved but I cant help think that they were trying to convict the victim.

    I think it was murder.


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    #23
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    For those interested the Burning Times Rememberence page is here and its a sub site of www.summerlands.com a pagan site.

    http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/index.htm

    Not my bag but its well researched and an entertaining read.


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    #24
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Darlughda wrote: »
    IS that the same James VI of Scotland who wrote and implemented the Malefius Maleficirum (or something like that), now he was a serious case of a crazed character who demanded that 'witches' raised storms for him and got spooked by the results? The horror he inflicted on Scotland!

    James had nothing to do with the Malleus Maleficarum, which was published in Cologne in 1487 by two dominican inquisitors called Kramer and Sprenger.

    The witch craze was really a seventeenth-century phenomenon, and was particularly virulent in Upper Germany, where you even had Hexentuerme (witch towers) built in certain towns to jail the accused.

    Here is a short album on my facebook of several Hexentuerme I photographed in the town of Gerolzhofen, which lay in the Hochstifft (or 'Prince-Bishopric' of) Wuerzburg during the 1600s:
    http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2027942&id=1074789393&l=9b47eeb1fc

    While it is true that 'witches' were killed from the late 13th century onwards, we notice a steadily rising increase from about the 1430s onwards (see Nider's Formicarius of 1436, which was distributed at the Council of Basel. It references cannibalism, child-murder, devil-worship and nightflying etc. The Malleus came next (though it was by no means universally praised), and gradually, as the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries wore on we get the spike of persecutions around the time of the Thirty Years War).
    Interestingly there was a much milder Vampire craze at the start of the 1700s, which replaced the witch-hunt.
    I don't have time to go into it here, but it's a fascinating subject. I have studied original witch-trial transcripts in German archives. I believe the phenomenon was connected intimately with the spread and bedding down of both the Catholic and Protestant Reformations, and was both a reform movement in its own right and also a response to the removal of the sacramentals by Protestant reformers.
    Of all the centuries, the seventeenth was truly one of the worst to live in...
    For a witch case the Bridget Cleary episode was VERY VERY late.


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    #25
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Furet - thanks its facinating stuff - I would love to know more-whenever you have time even if it was one particular incident. My interest being a spooky winter story than history.

    The Germans do love their cannibalism.


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    #26
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    The book by King James Book was Daemonologie

    Here is a link to it if anyone is interested. Nowadays this stuff is of interest to fundamental christians and historians. I wouldnt read it myself.

    http://watch.pair.com/daemon.html

    A link to the Malleus Malificarum

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/mm/index.htm

    here is a timeline on the development of religious thought on witchcraft persecutions in europe and a couple of other links off it.

    http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/Ftrials/salem/witchhistory.html


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    #27
    Darlughda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭Darlughda


    Furet, would love to hear more!
    I must have made an assumption that James VI wrote the MM, considering he was well into the witch trials, I have understood his role in that aspect of European History to be one the main instigators.

    However, Bridget Cleary was never tried in a public court of any kind of withcraft. And certainly not within the confines of the saxon-continental interpretations of the word witch and crimes.

    She was certainly tried as a witch, Irish style. A case of folklore that is much less happy folks doffing their caps and their tales, as Lady Gregory and the Anglo-Irish set were producing during that era of Celtic mysticism.

    Although relatively educated and successful, she and her husband still belonged to the labourer class and an older rural faery tradition.

    So, she was subject to a 'witch' trial of sorts done in private, in her home by her closest family members and neighbours. She was thought to have been 'taken'. Or, as she cried out to a neighbour present, "They are making a faery of me". (Angela Bourke, The Burning of Bridget Cleary).

    What this means is that she was thought to have been under possession of the malevolent sídhe and only an ordeal of fire and other rituals could rid the encumbent of Bridget Cleary's body. Her charred remains were found in a ditch a few days later.


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    #28
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Darlughda wrote: »
    However, Bridget Cleary was never tried in a public court of any kind of withcraft. And certainly not within the confines of the saxon-continental interpretations of the word witch and crimes.

    She was certainly tried as a witch, Irish style.

    It wasnt a trial but a murder IMHO.

    Although relatively educated and successful, she and her husband still belonged to the labourer class and an older rural faery tradition.

    http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/Burning-Bridget-Cleary/index.php

    But -like most of the population belonged to the labourer class. 10% of the population lived in mud huts. These people were literate and were tradespeople and she had an egg business.
    So, she was subject to a 'witch' trial of sorts done in private, in her home by her closest family members and neighbours. She was thought to have been 'taken'. Or, as she cried out to a neighbour present, "They are making a faery of me". (Angela Bourke, The Burning of Bridget Cleary).

    YOu also had killings for infidelity etc.

    JUst to humour me do you have a list of the people who claimed she was a witch and their relationship to her and her husband. Isnt it also likely that the locals were distrustful of the police.


    What this means is that she was thought to have been under possession of the malevolent sídhe and only an ordeal of fire and other rituals could rid the encumbent of Bridget Cleary's body

    Her charred remains were found in a ditch a few days later.

    Murderers will conceal evidence.
    During the interval that now elapses between the 17th and the 21st of March, the police are busily searching for the body, assisted by Michael Kennedy, who was not in the house on the Friday night. The police, thus set upon a false scent, under that able young man, District - Inspector Wansbrough, who certainly deserves to rise high in the Royal Irish Constabulary, proceed to search and scour the entire countryside. Railway stations are watched; farmhouses and outhouses are searched; fields, woods, glens, and brakes are tried in all directions; ponds and rivers are dragged! Neither priests nor participators give any assistance to the police.

    At length, when, after several days, no trace is discovered of this woman who had left her house at midnight, arrayed only in her nightdress, District-Inspector Wansbrough rightly concludes that she must be dead. If Bridget Cleary's body was not discovered, no further effective proceedings could be taken. No crime whatever could be laid to the charge of those people. It seemed a hopeless quest that the police now entered upon. Hundreds of square miles of country to search for one poor half-burned body lying in a few square feet of earth! No assistance, no clue, though so many people around them knew everything!

    All the parties -- Cleary himself, Boland, Dunne, the five Kennedys, and William Ahearne--were arrested. The neighbourhood was astir with the mystery of the missing woman. On the 21st the prisoners are brought before the magistrates, in open Court, at Clonmel; Simpson's depositions and Johanna Burke's false Cleary-concocted story being the only basis on which the prosecution has to work. Denis Ganey, who is said to have supplied the herbs, is arrested, but afterwards released. There was no case against him whatever. His herbs were, perhaps, as good as much of the stuff called doctors' medicine. Nothing was elicited to elucidate the mystery. Cleary, Pat Boland, Pat Kennedy, and his mother and two brothers, all kept their secret well. Old Boland goes so far as to say from the dock, "I have three more persons that can say she was strong the night she went away; she got up and dressed." This would go to prove, you see, that what they had done to her on the Thursday night--which was all they were charged with so far--had inflicted no serious injury on her, was, in fact, a fatherly kind of curative treatment! Their 'cute-ness is the most astonishing thing about all this gang of people. Their appearance, under arrest, in the streets of Clonmel, was greeted with "yells, hisses, and groans"; but their demeanour in the dock is described as "unconcerned: they chatted and exchanged pinches of snuff with each other."


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    #29
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Most cases of witchcraft are quite generic. I'd recommend you buy the Malleus Maleficarum (Hammer of Witches in English, or Hexenhammer in German), which is full of bits and pieces detailing various manifestations of witchery in the late 15th century.

    I'll post up a bibliography later, and if I've time I'll try to type up a translated account of a poor devil from Bamberg killed for being a witch (in the 1640s, I think). The stories are often thematically similar, and therein lies the pattern. It's important to point out that most witch trials resulted in a verdict of innocent, yet about 60,000 men, women and children were burned for engaging in maleficia (witchery). It's one of the subjects in early modern history that is particularly challenging for the researcher, because we are dealing with such alien mentalities. I have no doubt that for a huge amount of people living at the time, the devil, magic and supernatural occurances seemed to them to be as real as their next door neighbours.


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    #30
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Darlughda - Here is an interesting link to the Isle Of Man

    On a visit to the Isle of Man I saw a plinth in Castletown Square at the spot where a burning took place in the early 17 th Century. Being not a very sophisticated place and with a celtic heritage it may interest you.

    http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/towns/castltwn/witch.htm


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    #31
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm







    So did people in Ireland in the 1890 s believe.

    Michael Cleary is long dead -the judge didnt believe him and would have hanged him(me too).

    Can anyone show anything of similar crimes or incidents or beliefs in Ireland at the time.



    Fairy Children (or Changelings) in Ireland From The Dublin Penny Journal, Volume 1, Number 29, January 12, 1833
    The superstitious belief which still prevails to a great extent in Ireland, with regard to fairy children, or changelings as they are called, is of very injurious tendency, and will, we trust, ere long, be extirpated. The entertaining historian of fairy lore, Mr. Crofton Croker, says--"When a child appears delicate, or a young woman consumptive, the conclusion is, that they are carried off to be made a playmate or nurse to the young fairies, and that a substitute, resembling the person taken away, is deposited in their place, which gradually declines, and ultimately dies. The inhuman means used by ignorant parents to discover if an unhealthy child be their offspring or a changeling, (the name given to the illusory image,) is, placing the child, undressed, on the road side, where it is suffered to lie a considerable time exposed to cold. After such ceremony, they conclude a natural disorder has caused the symptoms of decay; and the child is then treated with more tenderness, from an idea, that had it been possessed by a fairy, that spirit would not have brooked such indignity, but made its escape. Paralytic affections are attributed to the same agency, whence the term `fairy-struck;' and the same cruel treatment is observed towards aged persons thus affected."
    The following very pleasing ballad, by our talented counryman, Dr. Anster, has been founded on this superstition; the mother is supposed to speak--
    "The summer sun was sinking
    With a mild light, calm and mellow,
    It shone on my little boy's bonny cheeks,
    And his loose locks of yellow.
    The robin was singing sweetly,
    And his song was sad and tender;
    And my little boy's eyes as he heard the song,
    Smiled with sweet soft splendour.
    My little boy lay on my bosom,
    While his soul the song was quaffing;
    The joy of his soul had ting'd his cheek,
    And his heart and his eye were laughing.
    I sat alone in my cottage,
    The midnight needle plying;
    I fear'd for my child, for the rush's light
    In the socket now was dying.
    There came a hand to my lonely latch,
    Like the wind at midnight moaning,
    I knelt to pray--but rose again--
    For I heard my little boy groaning!
    I crossed my brow, and I crossed my breast,
    But that night my child departed!
    They left a weakling in his stead,
    And I am broken-hearted!
    Oh! it cannot be my own sweet boy,
    For his eyes are dim and hollow,
    My little boy is gone to God,
    And his mother soon will follow.
    The dirge for the dead will be sung for me,
    And the mass be chaunted sweetly;
    And I will sleep with my little boy,
    In the moonlight church-yard meetly."
    Related books:-</SPAN>Sayings, Proverbs, and Humour of UlsterA History of Irish FairiesMeeting the Other Crowd: The Fairy Stories of Hidden Ireland




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