Downlighters / Insulation

Shorty69664 · 06-08-2009 03:57PM #1

Hi all
We will shortly be slabbing our ceilings and I need to make decision on the downlighters to use and the insulation problems associated with downlighters.
I have done a search on the forum but can't find a definite answer to my question.

To explain:
In the downstairs (kitchen / dining area) we plan to fit 12 downlighters with 150mm rockwool in between the joist.
Upstairs (Attic space) we have another large room where we plan to fit a similar amount of downlights (This time with rafterloc insulation fitted).

So my question is:
Are there any downlights that will allow us to keep the integrity of the insulation. In other words are there downlights (Like LEDs or fire rated ones) that we can fit right against the insulation and not have to allow space for heat generated by the lamps..

Whatever about the ones in the kitchen, running the rafterloc would really annoy me.

Thanks in advance for any replys....

davelerave · 07-08-2009 12:19AM

the led can prob be covered but the higher temp at back may reduce bulb life (according to manual).the halogen shouldn't be covered directly due to heat build-up/fire risk.
not too sure about cfl ,but same as led prob. applies(reduced life if covered with insulation)

Shorty69664 · 07-08-2009 07:31AM

Thanks Davelerave,
That's the definitive answer I was looking for.
Looks like I'm going to have to cut into my insulation:(.

davelerave · 08-08-2009 10:09AM

These lights maintain the 'fire barrier' without a hood .
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-Flameguard-Downlights-With-Dimmable-11W-Megaman-Lamp_W0QQitemZ350235818607QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090805?IMSfp=TL090805143004r10813
insulation can be laid on top according to info.

tbaymusicman · 08-08-2009 10:10AM

Yeah give half a foot either side of each light thats what iv always done and it improves bulb life

Carlow52 · 08-08-2009 01:31PM

IMO recessed lighting is 'past' it from a number of aspects: air tightness, fire, energy use, light for purpose, ease of construction.

d'Oracle · 08-08-2009 02:15PM

I have seen insulated covers for downlighters.
They are compatible with airtightness and insulation. Just insulate around them.

Also, I thing the new LED low energy down lighters are less of a fire risk.
But Im not sure.
Although ultimatly I agree with Carlow52.
The only reason to have downlighters is because the are pretty/in the magazines.

I presume there isn't a room above your kitchen?

davelerave · 08-08-2009 02:48PM

Carlow52 wrote: »

IMO recessed lighting is 'past' it from a number of aspects: air tightness, fire, energy use, light for purpose, ease of construction.

recessed or flush lighting will never be 'past it'.the problems with domestic fire safety ,energy use and air tightness can be avoided now.

Carlow52 · 08-08-2009 09:07PM

davelerave wrote: »

recessed or flush lighting will never be 'past it'.the problems with domestic fire safety ,energy use and air tightness can be avoided now.

I beg to differ.:D

Perhaps and only a perhaps, fire safety and air-tightness can be addressed through proper specs AND proper installation/workmanship, at an additional cost. 20 different connections/ holes in ceiling etc

Energy use/fit for purpose means that there is no need for 20 by 50w GU10's in a room which when I was young was lit with one 100 watt candy.

The very fact that they are recessed means that light dispersal is inefficient when compare to conventional lights.

davelerave · 08-08-2009 10:41PM

20 50watt halogens wasn't what i had in mind

lloydyboy · 10-08-2009 03:31PM

why you putting rockwool above kitchen ceiling ? soundproofing ? will this not stop the heat from rising ? leaving upstairs colder ?

10-08-2009 06:16PM

recessed or flush lighting will never be 'past it'.the problems with domestic fire safety ,energy use and air tightness can be avoided now.

My thoughts exactly.

Perhaps and only a perhaps, fire safety and air-tightness can be addressed through proper specs AND proper installation/workmanship

Yes it can, and has been done. There are a few simple solutions.

1) Uses LED downlighters as suggested earlier. They are cold to touch and cannot overheat if covered with insulation.

2) As is specified on some projects the area around the downlighter is boxed in. This ensures that the downlighter lamp and transformer has enough space around them for cooling. The size of this box can be specified by the manufactures.

The extra installation cost is insignificant relative to the price of building a house.

Energy use/fit for purpose means that there is no need for 20 by 50w GU10's in a room which when I was young was lit with one 100 watt candy.

I would agree that 50W GU10s are a very inefficient way to light a room. There are now CLF GU10s that are very efficient. There are LED GU10s as little as 1 watt, but the light quality is not great. This is being developed and is improving

The reality is that only a small portion of domestic electricity bills are from lighting. Many people are under the (often) false impression that they are going to make significant savings by spending a small fortune on energy efficient lamps.

If you really want to reduce your energy costs the money would often be better spend on additional insulation than changing lamps!

Most people would rather install lighting that will cost a little extra to run, but will be aesthetically pleasing in rooms such as the sitting room or kitchen.

Although a single CFL can be quite ugly:

The lighing shown below is both energy efficient and recessed:

Mullie · 21-09-2011 03:00PM

I'm losing heat and dust is entering our living space through our downlights. Looking for a solution to insulate existing lights from below I've come across these:
http://www.austech.com.au/site/files/ul/data_text30/1072978.pdf

Does anyone know if a similar solution is available in Ireland & UK?

Bruthal · 21-09-2011 04:01PM

Carlow52 wrote: »

I beg to differ.:D

Perhaps and only a perhaps, fire safety and air-tightness can be addressed through proper specs AND proper installation/workmanship, at an additional cost. 20 different connections/ holes in ceiling etc

Energy use/fit for purpose means that there is no need for 20 by 50w GU10's in a room which when I was young was lit with one 100 watt candy.

The very fact that they are recessed means that light dispersal is inefficient when compare to conventional lights.

Just because you can point out a few problems does not mean that recessed lights are past it. More common they are becoming if anything.

paddy147 · 21-09-2011 07:13PM

Mullie wrote: »

I'm losing heat and dust is entering our living space through our downlights. Looking for a solution to insulate existing lights from below I've come across these:
http://www.austech.com.au/site/files/ul/data_text30/1072978.pdf

Does anyone know if a similar solution is available in Ireland & UK?

Michael Garry Electrical Wholesalers in Finglas has them (Aroura) for not alot of money.:)

Square box shaped fire resistant materal that can be installed from the room below too,aswell as from the attic or floor above the light.

STForSale · 23-09-2011 10:20AM

Hi,
I have downlights in an upstairs bedroom.
Noticed last year that all the insulation in the attic was pulled away from them, leaving an obvious gap in insulation.
This room is noticably coolder than other rooms upstairs.

Any suggestions as to how I can leave the lights in place but stop the heat loss.

Lights are never left on for long.

Carlow52 · 23-09-2011 10:26AM

there are things called 'flowerpots' which you can get to sit over the fitting and keep the insulation at bay. Different ones have different installation requirements but the principle is the same
HTH

STForSale · 23-09-2011 10:30AM

Thanks, could these be bough in any DIY store or would I need to go to an electrical wholesaler?

M cebee · 23-09-2011 10:32AM

and change the bulbs to led if you're going to cover them

there's fittings make specifically for covering with insulation

STForSale · 23-09-2011 10:45AM

Thanks guys, the downlights are halogen bulbs with transformers.
Am I aright in saying that if I switch to LED bulbs, these are mains fed and I can remove the trafos.
Then cover fitting with flower pot and insulate attic as normal?

M cebee · 23-09-2011 11:04AM

not too familiar with the 12volt but i got some 12volt led before that were a straight swop

i wouldnt adapt the 12volt fitting for mains bulb myself

Stoner · 23-09-2011 03:05PM

Yes the Aroura fittings are nice, they have ones that are rated at 10Watt and with GU10 lamp holders, they are fire rated and have insulation built into them too. I'd expect them to cost approx 20 euro but they are a nice build. I have them in my place, 50mm thermal board in the ceiling, the holesaw left only 1mm of play so its a good fit, there is 150mm wool insulation above that again, i have 4Watt philips lamps in them, the ceiling height is not great in the room, there are 6 lamps totalling 24Watts and yes it is a room that a 100Watt fitting could light on its own, but i don't think I'm loosing much heat through them and the look a lot better than a centre light would in that room. but it was pricy.

paddy147 · 23-09-2011 03:20PM

Aroura,s new thermal and accoustic downlighter fitting.

About 20-25 euro depending on where you buy from.

Not great (cost wize) if you have alot of downlights in your house.

Stoner · 23-09-2011 03:26PM

paddy147 wrote: »

Aroura,s new thermal and accoustic downlighter fitting.

About 20-25 euro depending on where you buy from.

Not great (cost wize) if you have alot of downlights in your house.

yes I have these fittings very good quality, they sides are thick, there is a heatsink on top and they seal up well, just note they can only carry 10Watts though so it CFL or LED only, with respect to fire rated downlights, I've spotted some very well priced fited rated fittings on line, really for the extra 3 or 4 euro they are well worth it,

Actually they look slightly different to the ones i have

paddy147 · 23-09-2011 03:27PM

I have alot of downlights in my house.

The entire house is fitted out with dimmable Philips 4W LED GU10 lights.No heat off these at all,they barely even get warm.

I have Rockwool 100mm flexi slab in the ceiling (accoustic and thermal rated)

Ontop of that,I have Knauf 170mm insulation roll.

Sung as a bug in a rug and no cold spots or heat escape anymore.No more noise either.:)

Stoner · 23-09-2011 05:15PM

I merged these threads.

+1 M cebee I'd get new fittings, 12V lights are well, 12V lights some expose the 12V connectors, but you would not do that with a mains voltage, by the tme you had bought flowerpots and GU10 connectors you'd nearly have bought an insualted fitting, far safer and better.

STForSale · 23-09-2011 07:10PM

Cheers lads, think I'll go down the replacement fitting route, only talking about 6 lights anyway. One last question, I have a vaulted ceeling in my kitchen that has GU10's in it. These blow frequently enough for it to be a pain and I suspect they are getting to hot. Can I just replace all the bulbs with LED one's?

paddy147 · 23-09-2011 07:16PM

STForSale wrote: »

Cheers lads, think I'll go down the replacement fitting route, only talking about 6 lights anyway. One last question, I have a vaulted ceeling in my kitchen that has GU10's in it. These blow frequently enough for it to be a pain and I suspect they are getting to hot. Can I just replace all the bulbs with LED one's?

Yes you can replace them with LED GU10 downlight bulbs.:)

STForSale · 23-09-2011 07:20PM

Cheers, I can just about wire a plug so apologies for the stupid questions.

paddy147 · 23-09-2011 07:22PM

STForSale wrote: »

Cheers, I can just about wire a plug so apologies for the stupid questions.

No queston is a stupid question,so dont knock yourself for asking.

Sure if you dont ask,then you wont know.:)

Melanoma · 23-09-2011 07:26PM

The wires connecting to the down lights need to be correctly boxed of and if you use the new 3 watt lights you should be ok. Be careful though as the really new ones are instant but they can be white light as opposed to more traditional yellower natural light. Make sure what you select suits your tastes.

Downlighters / Insulation

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