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Michael Viney article in Saturdays Irish Times 4/10/2008 Why we chose a wind farm

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  • 07-10-2008 1:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭


    See Michael Viney's article “Why we chose a wind farm over a gold mine” here:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2008/1004/1222959337293.html

    I was saddened and disappointed to see Mr Viney’s column being used as a forum to support the development of a wind farm in Mayo, in what I would call misleading terms.

    The following are not mentioned:

    1. That the proposed area for this development is both adjacent to, and in, an area designated as a Special Area of Conservation (SAC) and Natural Heritage Area (NHA).
    2. That this area is also listed in the Mayo Wind Strategy document as being unsuitable for wind farm development.
    3. That the Landscape Appraisal section of the County Mayo County Development Plan, Development Impact, states that the landscape sensitivity matrix of wind farms in this area has “High potential to create adverse impacts on the existing landscape character. Having regard to the intrinsic physical and visual characteristics of the landscape, it is unlikely that such impacts can be reduced to a widely acceptable level.”
    4. That the Mayo Development Plan - Landscape Appraisal designates the Mweelrea Mountains as vulnerable and under policy 3.1(b) Policy with Regard to Areas Designated as Vulnerable: “These areas or features designated as vulnerable represent the principal features which create and sustain the character and distinctiveness of the surrounding landscape. To be considered for permission, development in the environs of these vulnerable areas must be shown not to impinge in any significant way upon its character, integrity or uniformity when viewed from the surroundings. Particular attention should be given to the preservation of the character and distinctiveness of these areas as viewed from scenic routes and the environs of archaeological and historic sites.”

    Also of note is that an appeal to An Bord Pleanala for a 50 meter mast bearing wind speed and direction equipment in Moher, Co Cavan, by Organic Power, was refused. The application site was on a blanket bog, in an SAC, a proposed NHA, a High Landscape Area and in an area where there was a presumption against such development. Organic Power do “do peat”, aparently if they were allowed. See details of An Bord Pleanala’s decision and inspectors report here:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/222575.htm

    Michael Viney’s publication “A Living Island” supports recognition and respect for SACs and NHAs, but laments their presentation to a rural society “generally so ill-equipped to see their point.”
    See here to open or save a copy in Word format:

    http://www.comharsdc.ie/_files/comhar0310.doc

    Important quotes worth noting from the Living Island are:

    1. “The challenge is to identify and map the essential network of habitats so that they can be taken into account by local authority planners and recognised and respected even at community level.” “It is sad, however, that the whole conservation apparatus of Natural Heritage Areas (NHAs), the Special Areas of Conservation (SACs) selected from them, and the Special Protection Areas (SPAs) for birds, has been presented to a rural society generally so ill-equipped to see their point.”
    2. “But only when the damage became scandalous and undeniable was the grazing impact on blanket bog vegetation suddenly worth studying”
    3. "One option is to accept – as I do – that other species and their habitats have an intrinsic claim or ‘right’ to exist which is independent of the interests of human beings.”
    4. “It has also helped people to accept the idea of Special Areas of Conservation, and to accept the list of a representative range of ‘important’ habitats which were designated as SACs – Ireland’s contribution to Europe’s Natura 2000 network.”
    5. “It has also helped people to accept the idea of Special Areas of Conservation, and to accept the list of a representative range of ‘important’ habitats which were designated as SACs – Ireland’s contribution to Europe’s Natura 2000 network.”

    The issue of wind turbines is one that is fraught with complications. Even the offshore option would mean the destruction of valuable habitat. I understand that up 1,000 tonnes of concrete could be needed as a foundation for a large, land based turbine. It has always been a question in my mind: is there a balance to be struck, are the total emissions from the construction and placement, of a large wind turbine, offset by its renewable energy output verses alternative energy production, and I am not just counting the costs in heavily subsidised financial values. In this sum I would include the like of the emissions from the man taking his car to the factory to build a turbine, to the like of landscape value. I cannot find out a satisfactory answer to this question.

    I believe that if we pursue the wind energy option, an easier and generally acceptably starting point would be that every home should have a small one (they do not require planning permission) and an export meter to the ESB, where full financial credit is given back from the ESB to the customer. Noisy and unsightly Industrial parks and IDA estates, train stations, even airports, are more appropriate places for larger turbines, the turbines can be switched off for certain hours if necessary. These are a few of the many areas that need exploration and could possibly raise a large amount of the energy needed while spreading the impact throughout the island, before we ingress on our SACs and our NHAs.

    The columns use of words, such as “unremarkable slope”, “lonely inland valley” and “tucked away in a costal cul-de-sac”, could create a picture in the reader’s mind of some faraway place of little consequence, and that in my opinion is deceptive. The prevention of new houses in the area is not a reasonable reason for supporting wind farm development in a protected area. Neither is the situation a choice between a gold mine or a wind farm. It is too late to decide whether you mind about the noise from the wind turbines after the fact and the reference to 70 meter wooded poles across the bay 100 years ago, in the context of the article, was erroneous.

    It is my understanding that NHAs and SACs are part of a network of sites which will safeguard the future of Ireland's fauna and flora. While some people can choose to adjust to the visual and auditory impact of such a development, I believe that it is in the national interest, and a national responsibility, to preserve designated SACs and NHAs.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    For supporting references see the following:

    Mayo County Council maps for SACs and NHAs here:

    http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Services/Heritage/NaturalHeritage/

    The secondary development is in the Sheeffry Hills would also appear to be in an SAC/NHA, see coco SAC NHA maps.

    See Mayo Wind Strategy maps Figure 2, 7, 9 and strategy map.
    See end of Mayo Landscape Appraisal document for appropriate diagrams and wording, just before appendix.

    Mayo coco policy docs see here;

    http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Planning/DevelopmentPlansandLocalAreaPlans/MayoCountyDevelopmentPlan2008-2014/

    The council have issued a further information request to the applicants as of yesterday and with an Advice Note which says:

    Advice Note

    • Mayo County Council have serious concerns over the proposed mast at this extremely sensitive location. The applicant is advised to consider locating to an alternative site.
    • The new Mayo County Development Plan 2008-2014 (as amended by the Planning and Development (Mayo County Development Plan) Direction 2008) came into effect on 11 July 2008. All new applications and decisions must be considered in the context, and must be seen to comply with the requirements, of this plan. You are therefore advised to familiarise yourself with the requirements of the Mayo County Development Plan 2008 -2014 (as amended by the Planning and Development (Mayo County Development Plan) Direction 2008) and furthermore, it must be shown that this current application complies with the relevant policies and standards of the new plan.

    Also the current mast’s planning application GIS report states adjacent SAC and NHA. For full details see planning application and “view related documents” see here:

    http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?filenum=081500&la=1


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Turbines to the right and turbines to the left:

    Article from the Irish Times 10/10/08 on the IFA proposing 6,000 windmills (on the FOIE site):

    http://friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=12554

    Article from the Irish Times on the quantity of offshore production wanted by the industry - 7,200 megawatts (not sure how many turbines that is). Projects for up to 3,000 megawatts to be given the go ahead.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/0912/1221138437043.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    The Answer to the energy crisis is blowing in the wind farms, Irish Times 7/10/08

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/1007/1223332518333.html

    The following is a letter to the editor of the irish times on the Environmental threat of offshore wind turbines: 9/10/08

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2008/1010/1223560349538.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Noise pollution is another issue when it comes to wind turbines.

    Currently the DOE is doing a noise issues consultation paper and has invited submissions by the 31st October 2008. Wind turbine/farm noise is covered under section A4.9, A9.1 to A9.7 in the noise issues consultation paper. See here:

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/NoiseIssuesConsultationPaper/

    The Noise Issues Consultation Paper is on the right hand side under publications and documents which can be downloaded.

    Have your say now if you agree or disagree with the proposed guidelines
    :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    :confused:
    Why are you talking to yourself?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Talking to oneself is a thing old people do! Old by name and old by nature.

    You are right though, I should have put all the above into one post and then let it fade away quietly into the ether. I was just so incensed by Mr Viney's article, I felt I had to do something. While noone has decided to have a chat about it, there is a 205 views of this thread, so it has been worthwhile.

    If we dont take an interest the vested interests will dictate how things are done. As an example the quarry registration process in 2005 had the oddest thing in it. I feel this was very undemocratic and our rights were removed by vested submissions when the call went out from the government for submissions. Simply, the guidelines stated that when an operator applied for registration of a quarry, public objections could be made. However only the operator could appeal the councils decision to an bord pleanala. That in my mind was disgraceful. Our democratic rights were removed by slight of hand. There were 104 quarry registrations in mayo alone. The negative impact of these registrations on thousands of people for the next twenty years does not bear thinking about.

    Just like I would encourage everybody to vote, I would encourage everyone to take an interest in requests by the government for submissions. It may sound boring but when something appears at your back door with government backing its too late to cry foul. Information is the key.

    I know, I know, I'm still talking to myself. Can't help it you see..............


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I feel I must justify and prove my statement above.

    Download the 2004 quarries guidelines here: "Quarries and Ancillary Activities"

    http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PlanningGuidance/

    and on Page 36

    5.8 Appeals

    A quarry owner or operator who provided the registration information, or further information if requested, may appeal a decision of the planning authority to restate or change conditions of a planning permission to An Bord Pleanála. 36
    Such an appeal must be made within 4 weeks, beginning on the date of the receipt of the notification by the owner or operator of the change to the conditions. Following an independent review, the Board may decide to confirm authority’s decision, with or without modification, or alternatively to annul the decision. It should be noted that no other persons, even if they commented on the quarry in response to the public notice, can appeal the decision of the planning authority to impose or modify the conditions of a planning permission.:mad:

    Does this sound like a government protecting its citizens??? I don't think so, more like protecting vested interests. The devil is always in the detail.

    Of the 103 quarries that applied for registration in Mayo, 70 of them recieved registration with conditions and have to apply for planning permission to increase the size of their operations (an bord pleanala is predisposed to grant planning for these extentions if there is an existing quarry on site). The smart ones expanded their top working areas by as much as possible before the council visited, digging down a few feet, as this would be included in the so called current working area (this includes vast areas of limestone pavements protected under 1992 EU LEGISLATION). 30 were required to undergo planning permission to continue (COWBOYS AND UNAUTHORISED DEVELOPMENTS INCLUDED HERE). 3 had applied for planning permission within the last 7 years and therefore the files were closed. 5 years later this process is still ongoing with the council not taking any of the unauthorised operators to court as yet for unauthorised quarry developments. You see in the background to all this is the need to develop the extractive industry in the NATIONAL INTEREST, and it is being done on the quiet.:(

    I am now off to talk to a lovely wall I noticed the other day..............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Turbines to the right and turbines to the left:

    Article from the Irish Times 10/10/08 on the IFA proposing 6,000 windmills (on the FOIE site):

    http://friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/index.php?do=paperstoday&action=view&id=12554

    Article from the Irish Times on the quantity of offshore production wanted by the industry - 7,200 megawatts (not sure how many turbines that is). Projects for up to 3,000 megawatts to be given the go ahead.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2008/0912/1221138437043.html

    Is it true that as you increase windfarm penetration the amount of co2 emissions mitigated reaches saturation and any further wind generation has no effect in reducing conventional plant co2 emissions?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I am searching for data as we speak and would welcome any links to studies or reports to read for myself. I for one would like to be fully informed before Ireland jumps feet first into wholescale wind generated power only to find out that the powers that be have again mislead us. I understand that our european neighbours are moving away from wind turbines for a number of reasons.

    As for the quarry issue I forgot, as i do, to mention that even the registered quarries are having problems. Some were falsely granted registration, such as outlined in this article:

    http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4579&Itemid=38

    the best quote in the article is from Ian Lumley, who highlights ‘the ineffective action’ of Mayo County Council in enforcing planning legislation, which he argues ‘is being subverted by systemic condition compliance breach and tolerance of unauthorised development’.

    the appeals to an bord pleanala and can be searched here. Type in harrington quarry for some interesting reads and manouvering:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/search/index.php

    If thay can't get it right with quarries can they be trusted to get it right with other complicated planning issues such as wind?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    Sorry, oldtree The reason I asked is that eirgrid mention it in their General Adequacy Report 2008 - 2014 and I wondering if they are telling fibs. If is the case then there is no need for these turbines in environmentally sensitive areas as the developer use reduction of emissions as their main selling point. Its about money not the enivroment.

    http://www.eirgrid.ie/EirgridPortal/uploads/Publications/GAR%202008-2014.pdf

    These should also include areas outside SAC's NHA's that have conservation value as defined in the EU habitat directive.

    I believe that there is a big push in mayo to expand the wind gerention capacity and of course they are putting them in in upland/blanket bogs areas


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Thank you Slagger for that snippet of information. It is always good to see what they are up to. You are correct that they have probably only costed the actual value of the land, rather than including any cost for the habitat value destroyed (over time) thus, in my mind, skewing their calculations in their favor and making the projects fiscally cheaper. We will discover these huge losses in years to come, as was the case with the quarries.

    I have linked to the friends of the irish environment before and the following may be of interest to you on their efforts on the energy industry and bogslides:

    http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/friendswork/index.php?do=friendswork&action=view&id=713

    Their site is interesting and they have a section that is updated daily which lists environmental information from irish papers here:

    http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/paperstoday/

    But be warned, the bad news can be a bit overwhelming at times. :o
    btw I am not a member.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    Thanks for the links oldtree. Great to see FOIE raising awareness of the crap EIA's the developers put forward for each development. These flawed EIA's are still being submitted to the County Councils and the developers are still getting planning permission.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    It is facinating that councils can grant permission, ignoring the likes of their own county development plan and straightforward national planning laws, amazing! But it must be said thet an bord pleanala appear to be able to do a better job, see here where mayo coco granted planning but ABP have just overturned that decison:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/227487.htm

    Suffice it to say that you need to only look at the boards direction to see what the council have overlooked...................

    This brings into sharp focus the need for observations on planning applications, if only to get a planning application to ABP to get a fair(ish) hearing and judgement. Anyone in Ireland can make a submission on a planning application anywhere in Ireland, and if not satisfied with the decision can then appeal it to ABP, and should! No submission and the council can (and does) what it likes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    I was suprised that ever got planning permission in the first place. Mayo Co Co had refused the majority of wind farms in the past based on the County Developemnt plan, but recently there has been a change in heart.

    There's one case where the chief planner overturned the decision of the Excecutive Planners to refuse planning based on the Landscape Appriasal.

    You have mentioned the old wind masts. SEI have produced a wind atlas for Rep of Ireland based on a mean historical value, no doubt at great expense with taxpayers money. The atlas gives values for different heights above ground (50m, 75m and 100m). Why can't the developers use these values instead of sticking a mast in. Its less intrusive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I think its like getting the foot in the door. As with the quarries, if there is one there already then it is easier to get planning for an increase in area. So the mentality must be to get a huge mast in for a spurious reason and then there is a precedent set which may allow for other large masts (turbines) to be put in.

    Or it may be an inexpensive way to find out it their larger scheme plans would be possibly allowed (or no objections, qed...).

    I am not suprised at any decisions reached by Mayo Coco, after the scandelous decisions in the quarry issue and other MCC planning decisions that have been overturned by ABP, I firmly believe that the ordinary citizen needs protection from the powers that be inside this council, and that this council (probably the rest of them too) need to be made fully accountable for their decisions. I would go so far as to say that a watch dog is necessary with the power to roll heads. The ombudsman does not have wideranging powers, covering only actual administration (not decisions) and enforcement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭maniac101


    Oldtree wrote: »
    The following are not mentioned:

    1. That the proposed area for this development is both adjacent to, and in, an area designated as a Special Area of Conservation (SAC) and Natural Heritage Area (NHA).
    I understood that planning laws absolutely prohibited the development of wind farms in SACs and NHAs? As far as I'm aware, wind developers wouldn't even consider a development in such areas. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Although I'd be an advocate of more renewables for electricity generation, I'd agree with at least some your views. I think the environmental impact assessment procedure is a bit of a joke to be honest, as the EIS is undertaken by the developer. My view is that some councils have been over-enthusiastic about approving wind farm developments, for reasons that have nothing to do with the environment or energy security. We'd be better served to build most of our windfarms offshore, where the wind is better and the environmental impact is lesser. It's the more expensive option for developers but, in fairness to Minister Ryan, he's put new tariffs in place this year that make offshore wind development far more attractive than it was.
    Oldtree wrote: »
    It is facinating that councils can grant permission, ignoring the likes of their own county development plan and straightforward national planning laws, amazing! But it must be said thet an bord pleanala appear to be able to do a better job, see here where mayo coco granted planning but ABP have just overturned that decison:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/227487.htm
    That's a planning application for a peat burning power station, not a wind farm. It's good to see that the people of Killala objected to this. Promoting the burning of peat to generate electricity is the most environmentally corrupt and shameful policy ever formulated by the Irish state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Hiya maniac101, I understand that wind farms are prohibited too, see further up this thread, but that dosn't stop the energy companies trying to make a buck!!!! Planning laws are bent all the time, thus the overturning of MCC decisions by ABP. Offshore is just out of sight, but that does not mean that the habitat there is any less valuable. I don't know what the solution is but I want a serious debate about the issue before Minister Ryan gives the go ahead, sacrificing one environmental issue for another, I would like all of these habitats quantified as to their real value and other options explored. I know its a power station, but in the context of this thread with planning and environmental issues I felt it appropiate to include, if nothing else just to show what still goes on.


    See here where a MCC quarry decision was overturned by ABP, if was on a limestone pavement protected under 1992 EU legislation. Again just download the direction for a feel of it and see 3. The site of the proposed quarry contains areas of dry calcareous grassland and dry calcareous heath with exposed calcareous rocks, which are habitat types listed in Annex 1 of the EU Habitats Directive 92/43/EEC. On the basis of the submissions made in connection with the planning application and the appeal, and having regard to the impact of the proposed quarry on these habitats, the Board is not satisfied that the proposed development would be in accordance with the proper planning and sustainable development of the area.

    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/216545.htm

    See here where County Secretary, John Condon, said he was not going to comment on a specific case as a planning application was before the Council at present. He did, however, say that it was ‘disingenuous’ for people to suggest the Council had ‘vested interests’.
    “Mayo County Council make planning decisions in accordance with the law and every planning application is available for public scrutiny. An Bord Pleanála are there so people can appeal our decisions and 80 per cent of the time they affirm them.”

    In accordance with the law?? (not all the time in my researched opinion and 80% is not a good average when the content of that 80 % is the likes of quarries and other such developments which have a huge impact on the local residents.)

    http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2538&Itemid=71

    This article by Vincent Browne outlines the reaction of industry to questions asked of them. Their answers are unhelpful to say the least, but shows the contenpt that joe public is held in by an industrial company.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2007/1017/1192458431446.html

    It may also be worth noticing on page 96 of the Written Statement of the Mayo Development Plan 2008-2014 (adopted) that the following is written about planning enforcement:

    4.1.1 ENFORCEMENT
    In cases where development has commenced, or is being carried out, without planning permission or in breach of permission, the Council will consider taking enforcement action.


    This is the same wording as the previous development plan, but the draft version of this new plan had the words will take enforcement action.

    I wonder who, and why that was changed?!?!?!?!?:eek::eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Noise pollution is another issue when it comes to wind turbines.

    Currently the DOE is doing a noise issues consultation paper and has invited submissions by the 31st October 2008. Wind turbine/farm noise is covered under section A4.9, A9.1 to A9.7 in the noise issues consultation paper. See here:

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/NoiseIssuesConsultationPaper/

    The Noise Issues Consultation Paper is on the right hand side under publications and documents which can be downloaded.

    Have your say now if you agree or disagree with the proposed guidelines
    :P

    On the issue of noise. I believe that windfarms do not comply with the followng EU directive:

    DIRECTIVE 2002/49/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 25 June 2002 relating to the assessment and management of environmental noise.

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2002:189:0012:0025PDF

    In this directive the talk about "quiet areas in the countryside" This was reported on to the EPA in the following report:

    ENVIRONMENTAL QUALITY OBJECTIVES
    Noise in Quiet Areas
    (2000-MS-14-M1)
    Synthesis Report

    http://www.epa.ie/downloads/pubs/research/land/epa_noise_in_quiet_areas_ertdi17_synthesis.pdf

    In it they refer to noise levels in "rural quiet areas" . These ares have to be identified and surveyed. In my opinion windfarms will not met the criteria.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Slagger, let the minister know your views, opinion and interpretation on the noise issue. Very few submissions are made to public consultations like this. With regard to the Mayo Development Plan there was about 100, and I'm sure many of those were from vested interests (and this plan is law for the next 7 years.


    With regard to the County Secretary, John Condon, to say that it was ‘disingenuous’ for people to suggest the Council had ‘vested interests’, and An Bord Pleanála affirm 80 per cent of the councils decisions please look at the Annual reports for ABP here and look up Mayo figures for results appealed decisions which proove otherwise:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/publications/index.htm

    In 2005

    % of pa decisions confirmed by board 20.8%
    % of pa decisions varied by board 32.7%
    % of pa decisions reversed by board 46.5%

    In 2006

    % of pa decisions confirmed by board 33.6%
    % of pa decisions varied by board 28.6%
    % of pa decisions reversed by board 37.8%


    "affirmed 80%" no, I don't think so...........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    Oldtree wrote: »
    Slagger, let the minister know your views, opinion and interpretation on the noise issue. Very few submissions are made to public consultations like this. With regard to the Mayo Development Plan there was about 100, and I'm sure many of those were from vested interests (and this plan is law for the next 7 years.

    Oldtree, I have made countless representations to whoever would listen to me. I even had a couple of conservations Eamon Ryan, but I fear as an ordinary lowly Joe Bloggs noone is listening. Other larger vested interests prevail and it’s done in the name of saving the environment!!

    I’ve only recently discovered that Failte Ireland have an environment department and have been instrumental in development of the Landscape Appraisals.

    http://www.failteireland.ie/getdoc/a7fcc4a4-43b7-4609-ad15-fa5710c5ba2f/Feasibility-Study-To-Identify-Scenic-Landscapes-In

    Even though Fáilte Ireland is one the prescribed bodies (i.e. should be informed of relevant planning decisions) in the Planning Regulations, they are not involved in the planning process unless the planners deem they should be.

    If the planners are making decisions on developments that are in designated areas under their CDP they should be informing Failte Ireland, but this not the case ( even if the planner acknowledges that its contrary to their Landscape Appraisal!!).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    And now there are 2 of us making representations, soon to be 4,6,8,20. Look at what a joe public outcry can do vis the medical card fiasco. Beverly Flynn was on the radio yesterday supporting the party line and my two comments were read out on air to her and she was choaked. Do what you can when you can, as you come across it. You are never failing when you are doing what you think is right.

    This famous old story gives for a good frame of mind: A man was walking along the beach after a big storm. He saw another man picking up jellyfish, which had been washed ashore, and putting them back into the water. He approached the other man and said "why bother? there are so many of them washed up, the few you put back won't make any difference at all!" The man picked up another jellyfish and placed it gently back into the sea and said "it made a difference to that one!"

    If we stop drawing attention to these issues then they win and get their way unimpeded. If we get a idiotic planning application to an bord pleanala and get it tossed, we win, but the war is far from over. Any effort, no matter how small will mount up to a mountain in the end.

    I make submissions on whatever I come across and have learned a great deal about the system, and use that knowledge to improve my submissions and the actions I can take within that system. There are small improvements being made by the system all the time but I do not expect miracles. It will take high court action (or a complete review of the planning system) to deal with the likes of the Failte Ireland issue, but now I am aware of that piece of information, if I can use it i will. Sounds like something to make ABP aware of in a submission. Gormley has at least promised to look at planning retention and outlaw the 7 year rule with a no no no to unauthorised developments following on from the EU EIS decision in the summer.

    I must stress that I have only come into this because some eejet wanted to put a quarry outside my back door and I had to fight for myself and that meant learning the planning system, which is a very complicated thing full of blind alleys and roundabouts.

    One example I would give you is that while the greens appear to have power, that is indeed very limited and controlled. But I could point to a few issues that they have successfully circumvented the system to meet a greening agenda. This would be on example if looked at from an improving light, slowly slowly catchee monkey.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/Heritage/NationalParksandWildlife/News/MainBody,18356,en.htm

    150 meters! supervised! have fun.:P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 GenericUser


    slagger wrote: »
    Is it true that as you increase windfarm penetration the amount of co2 emissions mitigated reaches saturation and any further wind generation has no effect in reducing conventional plant co2 emissions?


    Theoretically no its not true.
    In practice though, windfarms are highly variable and difficult to predict their output. At the present moment in time, it is necessary to back up the output of wind generation with conventional generators burning fossil fuels. So in the present day scenario it could be said that the polluting output from these backup thermal / gas generators may offset the gains made from wind generation. However in future this should be mitigated with cleaner thermal generation technologies and more reliable sources of renewable generation (Tidal and wave).
    Wind turbines are far far better than no wind turbines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    GenericUser, would you be prepared to go as far as to further qualify:
    "Wind turbines are far far better than no wind turbines"
    with
    "Wind turbines, in the right place, are far far better than no wind turbines"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Thanks for the info Slagger, have found the list of prescribed bodies and their remits under Section 28 (notice to certain bodies) of the Planning and Development (Consolidated) 2000-2006, here:

    http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PlanningLegislation-Overview/

    The Development Management Guidelines -June 2007 for public authorities here:

    http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PlanningGuidance/

    says in section 8.2 Who May Appeal:

    Any prescribed body which although entitled to be notified of the
    planning application by the planning authority was not sent such a
    notification (Section 37(4) of the Act)

    If the council tries to be sneaky and avoid informing the PB, then if a good citizen informs the PB about the oversight the PB may be more inclined to take the planning application decision to ABP. Looks like the only option there.

    If the PB has made a submission then it is available to see on the planning file after the council decision has been made. If its not there they didn't and it may be worth contacting them just in case (the council didn't). I am unsure what the time limits are for the PB to appeal, but i would surmise that its 4 weeks as ususal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    oldtree wrote:
    If the council tries to be sneaky and avoid informing the PB, then if a good citizen informs the PB about the oversight the PB may be more inclined to take the planning application decision to ABP. Looks like the only option there.

    If the PB has made a submission then it is available to see on the planning file after the council decision has been made. If its not there they didn't and it may be worth contacting them just in case (the council didn't). I am unsure what the time limits are for the PB to appeal, but i would surmise that its 4 weeks as ususal.

    I don’t think the council are trying to be sneaky, but I suppose it is open to interpretation. Don’t worry; the fact of not informing the relevant prescribed was in the first paragraph of the ABP appeal. I have already read the planning file. Notification of what prescribed body received the file is recorded on the inside of the planning file on a sheet of paper listing all the bodies that have received the file (date sent and date received reply). It is conceivable that it was not recorded, but let ABP find that out.

    I’ve just come off the Mayo CoCo website. I see Ian Lumley of An Tasice has had a good ole lash on the deficiencies of the EIA in his ABP appeal


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    The Planning and Development Regulations 2008 (SI 235 of 2008) have given me pause for thought, here:

    http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/Planning/PlanningLegislation-Overview/PlanningRegulations/

    No wonder the IFA has been busy.

    The only way that I can see to deal with inappropiate "exempt developments" is a section 5 declaration from the Planning and Development

    5. —(1) If any question arises as to what, in any particular case, is or is not development or is or is not exempted development within the meaning of this Act, any person may, on payment of the prescribed fee, request in writing from the relevant planning authority a declaration on that question, and that person shall provide to the planning authority any information necessary to enable the authority to make its decision on the matter.

    in that there are restrictions on exempt developments
    1. Every Condition in Column 2 “Conditions and Limitations” which relates to a specific CLASS must be fulfilled, or exemptions cease automatically.

    2. “Rural” exemptions do not exist for any structure within the boundaries of a city, or urban area, or town (defined as a community of more than 2000 inhabitants).

    3. Developments in CLASSES 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 (all farm structures, in other words) have no exemptions in any area to which a special amenity area order relates.

    4. Exemptions cease for any structures that “interfere with the character of a landscape, or a view or prospect of special amenity value or special interest, the preservation of which is an objective of a development plan for the area in which the development is proposed, (or, pending the variation of a development plan or the making of a new plan, in the draft variation of the plan or in the draft plan)”.

    5. Exemptions cease for anything that involves the excavation or alteration or demolition of places, sites, features or other objects of archaeological, geological, historical, scientific or ecological interest, the preservation of which is an objective of a development plan (etc. as above in No. 4). Exemptions therefore cease in all Natural Heritage Areas (NHAs), Special Areas of Conservation (SACs), and Special Protection Areas (SPAs) as soon as these areas are publicly advertised in the newspapers. [EU Regulation].

    6. There is no exemption for fencing or anything else that obstructs any public right of way. Nor is there any exemption for “fencing or enclosure of any land habitually open to or used by the public during the 10 years preceding such fencing or enclosure for recreational purposes or as a means of access to any seashore, mountain, lakeshore, riverbank or other place of natural beauty or recreational utility.”

    or as Mayo County Council put it:

    All forms of development which are normally exempted lose this status and require planning permission if they--

    contravene a condition of a planning permission;
    endanger public safety by causing a traffic hazard or obstructing the view of road users;
    build forward of the building line (except in the case of small porches);
    involve a new or wider access to a public road;
    affect a building, feature, site, etc., listed for preservation in the development plan or draft plan (check your local development plan);
    obstruct a public right of way;
    are not wholly related to the use of the house for domestic purposes;
    involve development within a special amenity area;
    involve development to a protected structure;
    include any works to, or changes to, an unauthorised structure, or one where there is an unauthorised use.
    ("Unauthorised" means without the benefit of planning permission or exempted development status).

    Needless to say Mayo Coco do not have a section 5 application form, "just send in a letter"!!!!!! you have to say:

    Section 5 Application, Planning and Development Act 2000-2006

    Request for a declaration as to if the following ‘is or is not development’, or ‘is exempted development’ within the meaning of the Planning Act 2000-2006.

    From:
    Location of Proposed Development:
    Description of Development:

    List of Maps submitted with this Application:
    2 ordnance survey rural place maps with the site outlined in red.

    Applicants interest in site:

    I am an immediate neighbour and resident of ?.
    reasons why development is not exempt..........

    I enclose the statutory fee of €80.

    Causing a traffic hazard is a serious nono too.

    Might be worth a go if a need arises.

    Good for Ian L, champion of the citizens, but he has far too much work to do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭slagger


    Jeez oldtree you've being busy. Sunday bedtime reading. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Its a steep learning curve and a mountain that I am still climbing. My computer is full now of information to be used, half of which i've forgotton as i go on, but is rediscovered when I need it.

    Another point about Section 5's is that they bring in any exempt development into the planning process and the Council decision can then be appealed to ABP. One such issue is Waste licences that come under the council environment section.

    See:

    http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/RL2389.htm

    and the backing docs for this other one here:

    http://www.mayococo.ie/PlanSearch/mcc4/PlanningViewer/displayafile.asp?filenum=073091&la=1

    Both require planning permission as a traffic hazard to the public road user.

    Very handy if the waste licence application has been filled in, shall we say, in a very all encompassing way, that you end up with a rubbish tip outside your door.

    There are a number of Section 5's on the MCC website over the last few years worth a study.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Eirgrid’s GRID25 plan here:

    http://www.eirgrid.ie/EirgridPortal/Home.aspx

    In a diagram on page 14, of the country’s total expected renewable wind energy capacity, 35% is available in the North West region (Galway, Mayo Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Donegal) and a further 8% in the West region, a total of 43% as against 4% in the East region!

    I wonder that, as this is a strategy document, is it Eirgrid’s intention to put 43% of all future Irish wind turbines here in the west? Is that going to happen with the thousands of planned exempted turbines, cluster them in the west of the country? Of the IFA’s 6,000 windmills, are 2,850 destined for the west?

    Page 25 also states the following:

    Mayo/Galway is expected to have 880 MW of wind generation and also expected to have up to 240 MW of wave generation and 31 MW of offshore wind.
    Donegal is expected to have up to 691 MW of wind generation,
    Leitrim/Roscommon is expected to have up 269 MW of wind generation

    I do not know how many turbines that is. These figures appear to represent a method of getting to the required 33% (or 40%) of energy consumption to be from renewable sources by 2020. What then I wonder?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,104 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    I have been following Eirgrids little graphs of Wind Generation MW and System Demand MW here:

    http://www.eirgrid.ie/EirgridPortal/Home.aspx

    Historical data is also available here too.

    I have noticed that the wind generated power can sometimes drop off dramatically, even at peak demand. On October the 11th 2008 the total wind generated power dropped to 4MW at 21.00. type in 11/10 and hit enter to get that days info in the right hand column.

    http://www.eirgrid.ie/EirgridPortal/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=Wind+Generation&TreeLinkModID=1451&TreeLinkItemID=248

    I had thought that the energy storage capacity system for wind power would have to equal the output of the wind system itself (in MW terms), but I had not thought of this issue over a prolonged period of time. has anyone any ideas of what reserve capacity we would need to have in a situation like this? How large would the storage facilities be and how many would we need to have based on our current energy needs?


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