Islam and Women

TheThing!

Why is there such a perception that Islam does not treat women well. I have often heard that this is the case and yet I have also heard from Muslim women that they are treated very well. What is this preception based on, if not reality?

Btw I meant Islam and women but I cant fix that, now can I

Osman

Hi TheThing! (interesting name),

I would probably say that the perception you describe is based upon a lack of understanding on the Non-Muslim's part about Islamic thought and teachings.

I'm a Muslim myself, but for my part, I don't blame the Non-Muslim's as I think it is only natural to draw such conclusions from mere observation. After all, the west is supposedly 'liberated' and associated with that are a lot of women who are dressed quite 'liberally'.

To then look at a Muslim woman who is covered up, it is probably easy to conclude that she is oppressed.

However, like you pointed out, one needs only to speak to a Muslim woman themselves to find that such is not the case. I feel that it is very important that a person researches a religion before prejudging as the reality may be the complete opposite to what they thought.

Here is a link to an article about the status of Muslim women in Islam:

http://www.jamaat.org/islam/WomanIslam.html

And I leave you with a quote from the final sermon of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

Regards

Playboy

Osman wrote: »

Hi TheThing! (interesting name),

I would probably say that the perception you describe is based upon a lack of understanding on the Non-Muslim's part about Islamic thought and teachings.

I'm a Muslim myself, but for my part, I don't blame the Non-Muslim's as I think it is only natural to draw such conclusions from mere observation. After all, the west is supposedly 'liberated' and associated with that are a lot of women who are dressed quite 'liberally'.

To then look at a Muslim woman who is covered up, it is probably easy to conclude that she is oppressed.

However, like you pointed out, one needs only to speak to a Muslim woman themselves to find that such is not the case. I feel that it is very important that a person researches a religion before prejudging as the reality may be the complete opposite to what they thought.

Here is a link to an article about the status of Muslim women in Islam:

http://www.jamaat.org/islam/WomanIslam.html

And I leave you with a quote from the final sermon of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh):

"Treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

Regards

I think if you had an honest conversation with a lot of Muslim women then I think you find a large amount of them are actually indeed oppressed. This however does depend on what country you are in. Woman are meant to be treated as equals in Islam but this is ignored in a lot of Muslim countries where there is an extremely patriarchial culture. So unfortunately the religion gets blamed for this oppressive treatment when in fact it is a cultural problem.

Osman

Good point, I agree.

normar

TheThing! wrote: »

Why is there such a perception that Islam does not treat women well.......

I would say an answer to your question can be found by investigation of what the Qur'an itself ( the immutable word of Allah or God) says

Firstly in relation to womens equality, next the Divinely sanctioned right to beat women, and lastly their Sexual role in heaven :

AN-NISA (WOMEN)

004.011
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)

056.035
We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
056.036
And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), -
056.037
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
056.038
YUSUFALI: For the Companions of the Right Hand.


AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
078.031
Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
078.032
Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
078.033
And voluptuous women of equal age;

Also it would help to look at womens rights under Islamic Sharia law as it is offically sanctioned in the Islamic State of Saudi Arabia:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7098480.stm

Saudi gang rape sentence 'unjust'

A lawyer for a gang-rape victim in Saudi Arabia who was sentenced to 200 lashes and six months in jail says the punishment contravenes Islamic law.

The woman was initially punished for violating laws on segregation of the sexes - she was in an unrelated man's car at the time of the attack.

When she appealed, judges doubled her sentence, saying she had been trying to use the media to influence them.

Her lawyer has been suspended from the case and faces a disciplinary session.

The rape victim was punished for violating Saudi Arabia's laws on segregation that forbid unrelated men and women from associating with each other. She was initially sentenced to 90 lashes for being in the car of a strange man.

On appeal, the Arab News reported that the punishment was not reduced but increased to 200 lashes and a six-month prison sentence.


You can make up your own mind.

wes

Saudi Arabia is just one Muslim country. There are many Muslims countries. Each are very different. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out. To say that one countries laws and traditions represent all Muslims everywhere is ridiculous, we all have different traditions and laws.

blackthorn

TheThing wrote:

What is this preception based on, if not reality?

It comes from seeing Islam through a distorted lens, with the result that incidents of injustice or oppression against women that occur in the Muslim world are magnified, while the normative, good experiences of Muslim women are invisible. The inter-gender relationships of a fifth of the world's population, over a billion people, can in this way be tarred with the single brush of any isolated miscarriage of justice.

Another symptom of this misperception is the distorted way of looking at the Quran that says the only correct interpretation is the one that appears least friendly to women, or human rights etc. No other way of reading the verses is acceptable. No complexity is permissible, nor allegory. It must be a literalist reading of a poor translation only. Actual scholars of the scriptures are surplus to requirements. Never mind the implied insult to women - that we must be stupid to believe in such a religion! Thank God, Islam is very different to that myopic view.

Bottle_of_Smoke

normar wrote: »

You can make up your own mind.

In fairness, you could have went with what her lawyer said, that it contravenes Islamic law(based on Saudi Arabia's record he's probably right)

To the OP: The perception is there because Islamic countries treat women(and men) badly. Some would argue that if a tree keeps producing rotten apples, what does it say about the tree? I'm not sure myself.

Now to go a step further & answer what I think you're actually asking - "Does Islam treat women badly?" I'd have to think about it & do a lot of reading.

I'm guessing it's down to the individual. If I was a woman I'd imagine I'd be outraged about the restrictions on my clothing & the fact that I could only marry a Muslim.

However if I was a Muslim I might be outraged about objectification of women where more freedom is allowed.

Overall I'd imagine I'd side with the western outlook, though I have lived here all my life.

moe_sizlak

TheThing! wrote: »

Why is there such a perception that Islam does not treat women well. I have often heard that this is the case and yet I have also heard from Muslim women that they are treated very well. What is this preception based on, if not reality?

Btw I meant Islam and women but I cant fix that, now can I

if it looks like a duck , waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck


im banned , right

jackal

Its not too long ago that Irish women were treated as badly or worse than muslim women. We had shameful extremes such as the magdeline laundy's and so on. Sure it was only in 1973 that women could continue working after marriage. Lets not get too high and mighty. It's easy now to look back and see that it was wrong, but at the time there were plenty of well educated, normal men that were quite happy with the status quo where they were the boss and women knew their place.

Im sure most mainsteam Muslims are horrified at the likes of the treatment meted out to the poor woman in Saudia Arabia. I wish we would see the likes of these extreme cultures who use islam as a tool to opress their people ostracised by the rest of the Muslim world. I really wish that Muslim's would show as little tolerance for abuse of their religion by insiders as they seem to reserve for outsiders.

moe_sizlak

jackal wrote: »

Its not too long ago that Irish women were treated as badly or worse than muslim women. We had shameful extremes such as the magdeline laundy's and so on. Sure it was only in 1973 that women could continue working after marriage. Lets not get too high and mighty. It's easy now to look back and see that it was wrong, but at the time there were plenty of well educated, normal men that were quite happy with the status quo where they were the boss and women knew their place.

Im sure most mainsteam Muslims are horrified at the likes of the treatment meted out to the poor woman in Saudia Arabia. I wish we would see the likes of these extreme cultures who use islam as a tool to opress their people ostracised by the rest of the Muslim world. I really wish that Muslim's would show as little tolerance for abuse of their religion by insiders as they seem to reserve for outsiders.

it is shameless to try and create moral equivellance between how women in ireland were once treated and how muslim women in the likes of saudi arabia or iran are still treated
there is no comparrison

Playboy

moe_sizlak wrote: »

it is shameless to try and create moral equivellance between how women in ireland were once treated and how muslim women in the likes of saudi arabia or iran are still treated
there is no comparrison

Why? What way are they treated?

jackal

moe_sizlak wrote: »

it is shameless to try and create moral equivellance between how women in ireland were once treated and how muslim women in the likes of saudi arabia or iran are still treated
there is no comparrison

I agree, it is indeed without shame.

moe_sizlak

Playboy wrote: »

Why? What way are they treated?

wont dignify that comment with an answer

Sweet Lips

jackal wrote: »

Its not too long ago that Irish women were treated as badly or worse than muslim women. We had shameful extremes such as the magdeline laundy's and so on. Sure it was only in 1973 that women could continue working after marriage. Lets not get too high and mighty. It's easy now to look back and see that it was wrong, but at the time there were plenty of well educated, normal men that were quite happy with the status quo where they were the boss and women knew their place.

Im sure most mainsteam Muslims are horrified at the likes of the treatment meted out to the poor woman in Saudia Arabia. I wish we would see the likes of these extreme cultures who use islam as a tool to opress their people ostracised by the rest of the Muslim world. I really wish that Muslim's would show as little tolerance for abuse of their religion by insiders as they seem to reserve for outsiders.

I agree with the Magdeline sisters as my mum was one and that has f**** her up!
As for Muslim women, I was on holidays in Morocco 2 years ago and the women there want to get married they dont want to be single as it looks bad, even if she is wife number 3 etc...
they get a scarf to wear as we get the diamond ring ... I was baffled ... They have to walk behind their husbands.
their men cheat on them all the time, they pretend that they are not married
Their male friends cannot contact them unless she contacts them.
And as for their swimming wear it like wearing pjs, I felt naked at the pool.
They girls are not allowed to go to night clubs and as for single Women who get pregnant their familes throw them out and they become homeless, you see them sleeping rough in trees every where ...so sad!

Suff

Oh Please!

The culture of the country determines how women are treated, not the religion. I have lived and travled to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi, UAE and Eygpt and each country is as different as Ireland would be to Spain!

you will never find this (walk behind the husband, cant use the phone unless her friend calls, and so on...) in any part of the faith nor you'll find it in Syria, lebanon or Jordan and even most of the gulf states like Kuwait and UAE. Saudi is different all together. their rules on women are not formed from the religion but is done on a political and cultural base.

Women are much more libirated than you think, the only reason why you'd think they are oppressed is from them wearing the hejab (head scarf). just ask yourself this....in every image depicting the Virgin Mary she's wearing a hejab (head scarf)..why? its the symbol for modesty infront of God.

Please, look beyond the cloths and more into the rules and teachings of the faith before making your judgments.

moe_sizlak

Suff wrote: »

Oh Please!

The culture of the country determines how women are treated, not the religion. I have lived and travled to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi, UAE and Eygpt and each country is as different as Ireland would be to Spain!

you will never find this (walk behind the husband, cant use the phone unless her friend calls, and so on...) in any part of the faith nor you'll find it in Syria, lebanon or Jordan and even most of the gulf states like Kuwait and UAE. Saudi is different all together. their rules on women are not formed from the religion but is done on a political and cultural base.

Women are much more libirated than you think, the only reason why you'd think they are oppressed is from them wearing the hejab (head scarf). just ask yourself this....in every image depicting the Virgin Mary she's wearing a hejab (head scarf)..why? its the symbol for modesty infront of God.

Please, look beyond the cloths and more into the rules and teachings of the faith before making your judgments.

you have a right to your opinion but your statement that the treatment of women in theese places is due to the culture of the country and not islam, well i do not buy that
i believe it is down to islam , im entitled to my opinion and it is a widely held one too i might add

wes

moe_sizlak wrote: »

you have a right to your opinion but your statement that the treatment of women in theese places is due to the culture of the country and not islam, well i do not buy that
i believe it is down to islam , im entitled to my opinion and it is a widely held one too i might add

If it is down to this monolithic thing called Islam. Wouldn't all the treatment be exactly the same? Some thing do come from an interpretation of Islam, but a lot also comes from culture, access to education, prosperity of society etc. Its not just down to Islam. Its down to several factors all working together to create unique situation in several different countries.

WindSock

I just have some questions regarding this excerpt from the Koran;

normar wrote: »

004.011
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

Does that mean a Woman is only half of what a Man is by physique?

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

I personally have some issues regarding the highlighted text.
Men are the maintainers of women for which we should be devoutly obedient to them because they are physically stronger than us. If we disobey them a third time, they can beat us, lightly. How is lightly defined under Islamic law? Are whip lashings applied lightly?

AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)

056.035
We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
056.036
And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), -
056.037
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
056.038
YUSUFALI: For the Companions of the Right Hand.

So a womans role in heaven is to be a young virgin? What happens when she is no longer a celestial virgin? Does she become a heavenly sex slave?

AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
078.031
Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
078.032
Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
078.033
And voluptuous women of equal age;

What is this bit about?

mmalaka

Suff wrote: »

you will never find this (walk behind the husband, cant use the phone unless her friend calls, and so on...)

Even in Saudi Arabia u will not see this especially in the main cities

MeditationMom

Sex in heaven - that always makes me wonder. Or harp music for that matter.

Isn't sex the reason for all this drama on the earth in the first place? And the serious drama follows when cultures try to control or manipulate natural sexual behavior, whether they try to suppress it or promote it. There is no reason to do either but for money and power, either for the church or for business, respectively.

Sex is not the problem. Our attitudes that we bring to it, are.

In heaven with God - what else could be needed? Sex, money, power, riches, pleasures, knowledge, position and status with God, harp music? Those are the games children play on earth. In heaven you are in heaven, and nothing else or other is needed.

panda100

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm guessing it's down to the individual. .

The problem with this is that most muslim women are born into Islam and its practices so how wil they know any different.Also even If you decided you didnt want to be a muslim anymore in one of the islamic countries would It be possible as a women to live as a non muslim?? I presume the laws would be pretty strict against non muslim women and those decideing to leave the faith?

mmalaka

panda100 wrote: »

Also even If you decided you didnt want to be a muslim anymore in one of the islamic countries would It be possible as a women to live as a non muslim?? I presume the laws would be pretty strict against non muslim women and those decideing to leave the faith?

Islam is not forced by law, a lot of non muslims are living in the Islamic country without any problems, same as the muslims women living here

Suff

If one is going to base their judgment on what they hear and see in the media then alot of misconception and stereotype-ing will be in place; example...All Irish people are alcoholics, America is a scary/dangerous place to live or visit or that all Americans are dumb, everyone in Holland is in the Porn industry.....and so on.

Just because they are covering their hair you make an immediate judgment that they are oppressed. but again I dont blame you since this is the only thing the media is interesetd in showing. "news that sells" however if it happened once it doesnt mean it's occurring all the time all !

To even think or suggest that any woman within my family are suffering from oppression is ridiculous. they are not restricted in their life in any way or form. I find it even ridiculous to defend them on this issue!
My family is religious, we do follow the faith but all the stereotypes issues mentioned here does not exist within my family and I mean my entire family including distant relations.

Culture plays a MAJOR part of any individual upbringing.

MeditationMom

Doesn't it basically boil down to a few questions if one wanted to find out whether women are oppressed in any given country? And I am not talking about happily married women who are treated with respect and kindness by their husbands. There is a line of thought that marriage alone is oppression of women, although many husbands are "oppressed" just the same. The ideal - a harmonious, loving marriage - is a child's heaven to grow up in and a great environment to learn how to harmonize opposites. Therefore marriage is the foundation of church or state. Bad marriages are the problem, not good ones.

The questions to ask then are -

One: Do women have equal voting and property rights as men in that country?

Two: Are women free to have sex whenever and with whomever they chose, whether they are married or not? Or no sex at all, which takes us back to property rights, as a woman would need to be able to own property to survive if her husband kicked her out. Does the woman hold all medical rights regarding her body, be that birth control or plastic surgery.

Three: Are women legally permitted to hold the same jobs, get the same educations, as men, borrow money from banks, etc, etc.

Four: Do they get to keep their genitals in tact? This is also an issue for men. Circumcision should be a medical choice to be made after age 18 or 21, if desired. Not forced on trusting children by "traditional" parents, aunties, uncles and priests.

Church and culture have trouble catching up with these ideals even in free countries. In practice there is still plenty of oppression going on everywhere, and people settle for it for survival reasons. It is a question whether laws are in place for the brave or wealthy ones to fight all forms of ignorance, cruelty and suppression. That is why separation of church and state is so important. Countries who have fought their way out of legalized oppression - as the US has regarding women, and slavery, for example - have done so at great cost. But they have also seen the benefits. Happy, free people - men or women - are more creative and productive.

So are Muslim women oppressed? In most Muslim countries - I would say yes. Do they feel oppressed? Not necessarily. If you agree with the oppressor for religious or cultural reasons - how could you feel oppressed?

Freedom carries a lot of responsibility. Freedom is so abused in the US that some parts of the world question the value of freedom, and, we are starting to lose some of the freedoms our parents and grandparents have died for. Even freedom doesn't like to stick around when abused.

mmalaka

I will try to answer as much as I know

MeditationMom wrote: »

One: Do women have equal voting and property rights as men in that country?

In most of the country yes

MeditationMom wrote: »

Three: Are women legally permitted to hold the same jobs, get the same educations, as men, borrow money from banks, etc, etc.

.

yes

MeditationMom wrote: »

Two: Are women free to have sex whenever and with whomever they chose, whether they are married or not? Or no sex at all, which takes us back to property rights, as a woman would need to be able to own property to survive if her husband kicked her out. Does the woman hold all medical rights regarding her body, be that birth control or plastic surgery.

About sex: Is this a right thing? I think even the church see the sex outside the marriage as a sin correct?

for the property: yes

and her husband can not simply kick her out the Islam and law has rules about this to save the wife rigths

Medical rights: the women hold all medical rights

MeditationMom

Thank you mmalaka. I am happy to hear all those laws are in place.

by mmalak - About sex: Is this a right thing? I think even the church see the sex outside the marriage as a sin correct?

It is a sin in Christianity, too. But legally it is allowed and not punishable.

Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.

Suff

MeditationMom wrote: »

Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.

I find this crazy...a couple of over 2 years in a relationship cannot marry unless they have sex to confirm their love or commitment!

Schuhart

MeditationMom wrote: »

Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.

In fairness, you generally talk a lot of sense and we all have our off days, but can I suggest that you might want to rethink the last comment if you're suggesting people must have sex before marriage to be deemed to know each other well.

I think your key point - that each partner needs to share an idea of what they expect marriage to be - cannot be contested. I don't think we can sensibly say much more than that, as it really depends on the outlook of the people concerned.

PDN

MeditationMom wrote: »

Most Christians do not follow this rule anymore and would consider it unwise, or even dangerous, to marry someone who they do not know well enough.

If you are using 'Christian' in a broad cultural sense (ie anyone born in a so-called Christian country) then that would be correct. However, if we use the word 'Christian' to refer to those who worship Christ and seek to live as His followers then your statement is untrue.

MeditationMom

Schuhart and PDN,

I agree with both of you. I made the mistake - again - as we all do, thinking of "Christian" in a cultural sense, as in "the modern Christian". A devout Christian, who takes religion seriously to the point of trusting the wisdom of the ancient teachings more than his or her own, and for whom it is more important than other things in life, indeed would not think lightly of sex before marriage, and would most likely follow this rule.

As applies not just to sex - good things come to those who wait. Difficult in cultures of instant gratification. Good spiritual training, indeed.

Suff,

A man who would be a woman's friend for two years without sex and still wait patiently to marry her - is an angel. And visa versa. They are very, very lucky. A marriage based on such a friendship is blessed. Especially when both husband and wife are in their first relationship and on a common religious path.

Unfortunately there are many exceptions to this ideal situation. Not all women and men are young, good, healthy, psychologically balanced, not previously married, of the same religion, etc, etc.

Suff

MeditationMom wrote: »

A man who would be a woman's friend for two years without sex and still wait patiently to marry her - is an angel.

Thank you

MeditationMom wrote: »

Unfortunately there are many exceptions to this ideal situation. Not all women and men are young, good, healthy, psychologically balanced, not previously married, of the same religion, etc, etc.

True, these days it is hard to find such a relationship.

WindSock

mmalaka wrote: »

Even in Saudi Arabia u will not see this especially in the main cities

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

wes

WindSock wrote: »

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

Yes, its is true, Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia. As for why they aren't, well I have no real idea for there reasons. Its make very little sense even from a hard line religious POV.

Bottle_of_Smoke

WindSock wrote: »

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

I *think* it's because driving would suggest they (women) are deviating from their role in society.

oceanclub

mmalaka wrote: »

Islam is not forced by law

Sorry, but incorrect; even in a liberal Muslim country such as Malaysia, a person is not allowed to convert from Islam. For example, see the case of Lina Joy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_Malaysia#Lina_Joy

P.

mmalaka

WindSock wrote: »

Women are forbidden to drive in Saudi Arabia. Is this true? and if so, why? (no bad Women driving jokes, please)

Yes it is true but it is not related to Islam. the strange thing that if u get out from the cities and drive deeply in the desert to the small towns (it is so small to be town) u will find saudi women driving without any problems

PDN

mmalaka wrote: »

Yes it is true but it is not related to Islam. the strange thing that if u get out from the cities and drive deeply in the desert to the small towns (it is so small to be town) u will find saudi women driving without any problems

A friend of mine was working as a nurse in Saudi and I know she was allowed to drive (maybe because she's not a Muslim?).

Trouble was she was in an accident where a guy smashed into her. She had two other nurses in the car with her, but was told by the police that the testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of ten women - so the guy's testimony outranked her and her two (female) witnesses. So she was held responsible for causing the accident.

I would be interested to know if the 10 women to 1 man thing is simply a remnant of some bedouin misogyny in Saudi or is it based on some religious text?

Dave!

normar wrote: »

AN-NISA (WOMEN)

004.011
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females:

004.034
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


AL-WAQIA (THE EVENT, THE INEVITABLE)

056.035
We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
056.036
And made them virgin - pure (and undefiled), -
056.037
Beloved (by nature), equal in age,-
056.038
YUSUFALI: For the Companions of the Right Hand.


AN-NABA (THE TIDINGS, THE ANNOUNCEMENT)
078.031
Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart's) desires;
078.032
Gardens enclosed, and grapevines;
078.033
And voluptuous women of equal age;

"As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation)."
The Book of Women 4:15

Any Muslims able to justify these quotes? Or will it just end up with ye trying to argue that it's a mistranslation and it actually means that women are the same as men and everything's hunky dory?

mmalaka

PDN wrote: »

A friend of mine was working as a nurse in Saudi and I know she was allowed to drive (maybe because she's not a Muslim?).

Trouble was she was in an accident where a guy smashed into her. She had two other nurses in the car with her, but was told by the police that the testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of ten women - so the guy's testimony outranked her and her two (female) witnesses. So she was held responsible for causing the accident.

I would be interested to know if the 10 women to 1 man thing is simply a remnant of some bedouin misogyny in Saudi or is it based on some religious text?

This is really funny

Acually Testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of 2 women not 10!!! I think that the guy made an agreement with the police man against ur friend

donaghs

Can't help but pick up on a few issues here that illustrate the divergence between ideas on liberal democracy and more traditional societies.

mmalaka wrote: »

About sex: Is this a right thing? I think even the church see the sex outside the marriage as a sin correct?

What Church? Churches and religions don't legislate for people in a liberal democracy.

In relation to the moral issue, just because you have the ****right*** to sleep with as many people as you want to (or none), this does not mean that you must do this. This is an issue of having rights.

mmalaka wrote: »

Yes it is true but it is not related to Islam. the strange thing that if u get out from the cities and drive deeply in the desert to the small towns (it is so small to be town) u will find saudi women driving without any problems

So is everything ok then?

mmalaka wrote: »

This is really funny

Acually Testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of 2 women not 10!!! I think that the guy made an agreement with the police man against ur friend

Missing the point again. Its not an issue of the size of the ratio - its the inequality itself.

Dave!

mmalaka wrote: »

This is really funny

Acually Testimony of one man is counted as the equivalent of that of 2 women not 10!!! I think that the guy made an agreement with the police man against ur friend

Oh well then! That's grand, so!

Suff

donaghs wrote: »

Missing the point again. Its not an issue of the size of the ratio - its the inequality itself.

Many scholars tried to understand this ratio. my current understanding is that women are more sensitive and compassionate than men. therefore having two women as witnesses is more favorable if one is thinking with her heart the other might remind her of it.

WindSock

Suff wrote: »

Many scholars tried to understand this ratio. my current understanding is that women are more sensitive and compassionate than men. therefore having two women as witnesses is more favorable if one is thinking with her heart the other might remind her of it.

Even still, that doesn't make much sense. Does that mean a callous, inhumane and desensitised person makes for a better witness?
Are all men not compassionate?

Suff

The point is that women tend to use their hearts more than men.

Medina

Here is an article which may address the reasoning behind the 2:1 witness ratio more accurately

http://lightuponlight.com/islam/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=289

SkepticOne

In what countries are these witness ratios applied in their judicial systems?

Suff

SkepticOne wrote: »

In what countries are these witness ratios applied in their judicial systems?

Only in countries where Islamic law is the only law in practice. Most countries in the MiddleEast such as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt use secular Law.
while countires such as Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and I think Indonesia have the Islamic law in place.

Note: Most Arabic and Islamic countires use a mix of both Islamic and secular Laws.

Jack Sheehan

Suff wrote: »

The point is that women tend to use their hearts more than men.

Excuse me for being rude but this is the stupidest and most condescending law I've ever heard. So women are incapable of thinking rationally and only a man can 'think with his head'? That kind of Judicial inequality is indefensible whether its 2:1 or 100:1!

Suff

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

So women are incapable of thinking rationally and only a man can 'think with his head'?

Did I say this? No you did. My point is as clear as your rudeess.

Jack Sheehan wrote: »

That kind of Judicial inequality is indefensible whether its 2:1 or 100:1!

Women are not equal to Men, each share general rights and a bit extra over their own rights.
Why not have maternity leave for Men?

Jack Sheehan

Suff wrote: »

Did I say this? No you did. My point is as clear as your rudeess.



Women are not equal to Men, each share general rights and a bit extra over their own rights.
Why not have maternity leave for Men?

I didn't say you said anything, what I said was that this law implies that women are incapable of rational thinking.

As for your second point, OK Women and men are not equal on some issues but as regards the law and human rights they are or at least should be totally equal.