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If you seen for yourself would you believe?

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  • 07-11-2007 12:53pm
    #1
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭


    Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. I.E. It definately wasn't a tick etc. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

    Would you follow Christ if his diciple perfomed supernatural signs? 7 votes

    Yes
    0% 0 votes
    No
    100% 7 votes


«1345

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    #2
    joe_chicken
    Registered Users Posts: 1,287 ✭✭✭joe_chicken


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Assuming that it was genuine

    Yes.

    But we all know what happens when we assume.


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    #3
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?
    Assuming it was a genuine act of God, and that the God was actually the Christian God?

    Nope, I would not "follow" (ie worship) him.


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    #4
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    why shouldn't we follow you? you're the one doing the miracles.


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    #5
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

    Hmm. I'd need several other randomly chosen Christians to perform similar miracles, because otherwise I might as well just proclaim you as the next Messiah.

    Assuming you could do that, then personally, no. If such powers were available through Christ, then the utter failure of Christ to do anything about the enormous misery found around the world and throughout history would argue that He was a deity at best negligent, at worst sadistic.

    BTW, I think you should clarify that "assuming it was genuine" - presumably you mean it wasn't a trick or deception of any kind?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #6
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    It would depend on whether it could be proven that you did these things and that it was the Holy Spirit working through you. Faith healers having been tricking people for years, so there would be a certain level of disbelief. If it was proven without a shadow of a doubt, I honestly don't know if I respect the Christian god enough to follow him.


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    #7
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Hard to say... The God of the old testament doesn't seem like the most pleasant of chaps, and doesn't appear worthy of worship. But at the same time, if I knew that was the path to heaven and eternal salvation, I'd probably be on my knees every day (praying, of course).


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    #8
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    DaveMcG wrote: »
    But at the same time, if I knew that was the path to heaven and eternal salvation, I'd probably be on my knees every day (praying, of course).

    Yes I may be born again, but I was wasn't
    born again yesterday. I wanna get down
    on my knees and start pleasing Jesus!
    I wanna feel his salvation all over
    my face!

    Cartman - South Park - Christian Rock Hard

    :)


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    #9
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Assuming that it was genuine.

    Assuming - I'd need 100% backed up, logical proof.
    Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

    Nope.
    I'm not getting why you would think because you cured someone we should follow someone else.
    I agree with Mordie, why wouldn't we follow you instead?
    Do you wear sandles? Can I have one?


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    #10
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Yes I may be born again, but I was wasn't
    born again yesterday. I wanna get down
    on my knees and start pleasing Jesus!
    I wanna feel his salvation all over
    my face!

    Cartman - South Park - Christian Rock Hard

    :)
    LOL

    made me laugh in the library, not good :o


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    #11
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

    If you did those miracles then I would probably say no, they aren't convincing enough. However if I saw you make the Red Sea part and have a nice path from one shore to the other with walls of water on either side then I would be convinced that something was up.


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    #12
    stevejazzx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    Silly nonsensical thread..this place is getting more and more like after hours...

    handbag readied,

    Steve


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    #13
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    If you did those miracles then I would probably say no, they aren't convincing enough. However if I saw you make the Red Sea part and have a nice path from one shore to the other with walls of water on either side then I would be convinced that something was up.

    Something was up? Ok, if seeing blind people see and lame people walk is not convincing enough. if I parted the red sea then?

    And to those who say 'why wouldn't e just follow you'. Believe it or not, this happened to Paul in Greece. he performed signs and they start bowing down. He starting telling them no, it is not I who has this power it is my master. So i would merely be a vessel for the holy spirit, and would declare it so.


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    #14
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    So i would merely be a vessel for the holy spirit, and would declare it so.

    Yes but I think the point is that you haven't demonstrated that. You have demonstrated that you can do these things, and you claim that God is doing them through you. Which is actually a different claim. You could be either wrong, or simply lying. What if Satan was doing them through you?


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    #15
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Silly nonsensical thread..this place is getting more and more like after hours...

    handbag readied,

    Steve


    Ahh no I like Jimi's threads... at least he's engaging with his heathenous counterparts unlike some of the other religious peeps, who daren't venture into these here parts. They're usually content to ward off attacks from ravenous secularists in their respective forums.


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    #16
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    Silly nonsensical thread..this place is getting more and more like after hours...

    handbag readied,

    Steve

    TBH, why would you post in it then? Other posters have merely exerted an opinion on it so why don't you either choose to or not? don't just throw stones at it:confused: The question arose in the Christianity forum, where certain folk were talking about lack of evidence for Jesus Christ. I decided to ask where the non-believers are (here), if they did see such evidence, would they follow Christ. Whats nonsensical about that?:confused:


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    #17
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    However if I saw you make the Red Sea part and have a nice path from one shore to the other with walls of water on either side then I would be convinced that something was up.
    Agreed. You could revolutionise international travel in a way that Michael O'Leary can only dream of.


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    #18
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Something was up? Ok, if seeing blind people see and lame people walk is not convincing enough. if I parted the red sea then?

    And to those who say 'why wouldn't e just follow you'. Believe it or not, this happened to Paul in Greece. he performed signs and they start bowing down. He starting telling them no, it is not I who has this power it is my master. So i would merely be a vessel for the holy spirit, and would declare it so.

    With Wicknight on this one - all you've demonstrated is that you can do miracles. You may believe that's the Holy Spirit working through you, but it's a huge assumption to accept that. As I say, I would need to see a sample of random Christians able to do it, and also know that they had received neither more nor less than standard Christian teaching.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #19
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Something was up? Ok, if seeing blind people see and lame people walk is not convincing enough.
    I'd need something far more convincing than a trick that could be set up/faked by any decent street magician.

    Extraordinary claims, etc. The Red Sea would be a good one. I mentioned before I'd be hard pushed not to believe there was some validity to a claim for God if all the planets were to suddenly align, and a voice announced to everyone on earth that god was here; kneel before him.


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    #20
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

    Out of interest, is there anything that you could see/discover that would cause you to lose your faith in Yahweh?


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    #21
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Ok I've just set up a poll for this question, if anyone fancies having a go.

    Also, just remember, the question is not just 'would you then believe', its would you actually follow him also. The latter being the more important question for me.

    Also, mainly to Dades in response to the tricks thing. In case I didn't make it clear in my original post. It is genuine, no tricks etc, and you see its all genuine.


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    #22
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Ok I've just set up a poll for this question, if anyone fancies having a go.

    Also, just remember, the question is not 'would you then believe', its would you actually follow him.

    Also, mainly to Dades in response to the tricks thing. In case I didn't make it clear in my original post. It is genuine, no tricks etc, and you see its all genuine.

    If you could perform magic it would still not convince me.

    JimiTime performs actual magic is a long leap from God exists and created heaven and hell. Sure you could be an evil wizard for all I know.


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    #23
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Also, mainly to Dades in response to the tricks thing. In case I didn't make it clear in my original post. It is genuine, no tricks etc, and you see its all genuine.
    But how would a punter like me know it's genuine? You can't just say it is and leave it at that. To believe something as extraordinary as the Creator of Life, the Universe and Everything working magic through you, you would need to do something really, really impressive.

    And I'd need a few questions answered about the state of the world before I'd follow the gourd, tbh.


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    #24
    Splendour
    Registered Users Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Also, just remember, the question is not just 'would you then believe', its would you actually follow him also. The latter being the more important question for me.

    Nice try JimiTime, but some things never change. After all as we we read in John 12,37:

    37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

    They were impressed with Jesus miracles, but not willing to believe. If one doesn't believe one cannot follow.
    Sadly,man is the same now as he was then...

    (Still,I'll be curious as to the outcome...)


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    #25
    Red Hand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity. If for arguements sake, I as a Christian, showed you a sign like say, I made a blind man see, or made a paraplegic walk through Holy spirit, I.E. I said see, and he saw, or i said walk and he walked. Assuming that it was genuine. Would you then be baptised, and follow Christ?

    You would be trying to convince me that it was God work his magic through you, but to me, you and your miracles could be due to any number of things; from pseudo-scientific behaviour like pyschokinesis right up to aliens abducting you and giving you some advanced technology to have such powers.

    To paraphrase Arthur C Clarke, "Any well advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". So, maybe even scientists could have given you such a power. All of that would be speculation on my part.

    Just because people see something amazing does not mean that they will "be silenced by the glory", or stop thinking critically.:)


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    #26
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    But how would a punter like me know it's genuine? You can't just say it is and leave it at that. To believe something as extraordinary as the Creator of Life, the Universe and Everything working magic through you, you would need to do something really, really impressive.

    And I'd need a few questions answered about the state of the world before I'd follow the gourd, tbh.

    i mean what was actually happening was genuine, i.e. it wasn't a trick. If for instance you came with me, or i came with you. You brought me some random, lame person etc. And through my calling in Jesus' name they were healed right in front of you. So imagine, you are in no doubt that these people are being miraculously healed. Would your doubt then turn to me lieing? You believing that I'm not doing this through holy spirit, but by other means? If I then convinced you, just imagine, that it was through the Holy Spirit, would you then follow Christ, or still reject him? Or would you need still to ask him some stuff before you followed?


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    #27
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    A few party tricks certainly wouldn't make me worship your god, no.

    If I was going to worship any of them, yours would be way down on the list.
    JT wrote:
    Would your doubt then turn to me lieing? You believing that I'm not doing this through holy spirit, but by other means?
    Well, maybe you're not really doing it through your god, and it's some other god or whatever doing it through you and you're just assuming it's yours.


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    #28
    Red Hand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Splendour wrote: »
    Nice try JimiTime, but some things never change. After all as we we read in John 12,37:

    37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him.

    They were impressed with Jesus miracles, but not willing to believe. If one doesn't believe one cannot follow.
    Sadly,man is the same now as he was then...

    (Still,I'll be curious as to the outcome...)

    Many Aztecs believed the first Conquistadors to be capable of magic and miracles...and yet they weren't. Cannons, muskets, horses-they were all just signs of mere technology.


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    #29
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Splendour wrote: »
    Sadly,man is the same now as he was then...

    Not gullible?


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    #30
    Hivemind187
    Registered Users Posts: 5,021 ✭✭✭Hivemind187


    To the OP

    Not a hope. I'd have you dissected to figure out what part of you we could reproduce so that we could ALL perform such miracles.

    Seriously though, I dont believe that a genuine miracle would make me join a religion. It would answer a few questions and certainly show that some of my previous assertions were in error, but as a catalyst for throwing my lot in with the religions ... no, still think I'd have to do things my own way.


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    #31
    The Chessplayer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭The Chessplayer


    I certainly would NOT follow Christ if his spelling and grammar was as atrocious as the poster's.


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