TDI - Red I, Red DI, ehat's the difference?!

defenstration · 11-04-2007 7:24pm #1

I realise that TDi is turbo diesel, but some adverts for 2nd hand Passats that I'm looking at refer to "red DI" and "red I". I noticed that on some models the I is red alright, but what does it all mean, or is there even any difference at all between a red DI, a red I, and no red at all?!

Another thing about Passats while I'm on the subject - drove a friend's 1.9L TDI this morning and was really impressed with how it took turns and handled bumpy roads etc. Would a 1.6L petrol be just as good at taking turns and potholes then as well? I presume that it's all down to suspension and that a '02 Passat will handle the same, whether it's a 1.6L petrol or a 1.9L TDi? The friend told me that his car was the sport model, so that might have a bit of an influence on how good the suspension is, yeah? So in that case, a regular 1.6L petrol might not handle as good?

astraboy · 11-04-2007 7:31pm

Basically the TDI, TDI and TDI are in different states of tune. I think the regular TDI is around 100 BHP, the TDI is around 110 and the TDI is more again. I'm open to correction on the power figures.

As for the 1.6L passat, it will be fairly slow compared to the TDI as it will have less torque and power. I have never heard of a "sports" passat, maybe the suspension differs slightly over the engine ranges but I reckon it would be basically the same for all models. A 1.6 should handle the bumps the same way a 1.9 TDI does, depending on year and condition of course.

Lex Luthor · 11-04-2007 7:33pm

it depends on the cars....

red i will probably have 15-20bhp more than just TDi and TDi will probably have another 15-20bhp more than the TDi

SouperComputer · 11-04-2007 8:18pm

The red in TDi actually means nothing. Dealers and VW have messed around with it to a point of confusion.

The only way to know for sure what engine is in there is by checking either the stamp on the block/head or the sticker under the carpet in the boot.

Between the 1.6 petrol and 1.9 Diesel, there is no contest. Tdi (Any flavour) all the way.

colm_mcm · 11-04-2007 8:18pm

My understanding of it is as follows:
The Passat TDI had silver lettering and was 90bhp
then there was a red I 110bhp
then there was a 130bhp with a red D and a red I

Then they introduced a 100bhp version and this also had a red D and a red I

Then it stopped making sense and there were so many different engine sizes and states of tune that everyone got confused and they randomly asssigned different coloured badges depending on what the weather was like on the day.

At least I think that's how it worked

defenstration · 11-04-2007 8:50pm

SouperComputer wrote:

The red in TDi actually means nothing. Dealers and VW have messed around with it to a point of confusion.

The only way to know for sure what engine is in there is by checking either the stamp on the block/head or the sticker under the carpet in the boot.

Between the 1.6 petrol and 1.9 Diesel, there is no contest. Tdi (Any flavour) all the way.

When you sy no contest, are ya referring to power and speed or are ya referring to comfort taking bends and bumps? Speed and power don't really mean much to me. All I'm after is driving comfort. The 1.9 TDi I drove this morning was extremely smooth on the road. Would the 1.6 petrol be the same?

defenstration · 11-04-2007 8:53pm

Cheers for the replies lads, but what is tuning?! The only thing I know about cars is that they have 4 wheels! I was advised in other discussions to go for the 130bhp or whatever it is, but what is the difference between 100bhp and 130bhp? I presume its sumthin to do with horse power, is it break horse power or sumthin? Like I said though, I don't really care too much about top-speed and overtaking power. Is that all tuning/bhp is?

SouperComputer · 11-04-2007 8:55pm

defenstration wrote:

When you sy no contest, are ya referring to power and speed or are ya referring to comfort taking bends and bumps? Speed and power don't really mean much to me. All I'm after is driving comfort. The 1.9 TDi I drove this morning was extremely smooth on the road. Would the 1.6 petrol be the same?

I mean peformance AND economy. The 1.6 is pathetically underpowred TBH. Dont get me wrong, the TDi's are no rocket ship, but overtaking is much safer in one.

Roadholding, they should be the same. The used the same parts, although the diesel engine is a bit heavier. The ride quality in the Passat is pretty good.

ZiabR · 11-04-2007 9:20pm

TDI = 100BHP
TD (red) I = 110BHP
T (red) D (red) I = 130BHP

The 130BHP is a weapon, very fast for the fuel type. Much like the Audi engines.

defenstration · 11-04-2007 9:30pm

Right so, a '01 TDI or a '02 1.6 petrol - which to go for?

I realise that the suspension and general driving comfort on the two will probably be more or less the same, but if for some reason I prefer the TDI (haven't driven a 1.6 petrol yet, will probably do so tomorrow), would it be worth going down a year just so I could get the TDI? They seem to be slightly more expensive and I doubt I could afford a '02 TDI.

Will be holding onto the car for about 3 or 4 years so by the time I go to sell it off, I suppose the difference in resale value will be minimal even between a '01 and a '02, yeah?

bazz26 · 11-04-2007 9:30pm

logik wrote:

TDI = 100BHP
TD (red) I = 110BHP
T (red) D (red) I = 130BHP

The 130BHP is a weapon, very fast for the fuel type. Much like the Audi engines.

That's because it is the same engine in both cars along with various other VWs, Audis, Seats and Skodas.

voxpop · 11-04-2007 9:41pm

Correct me if im wrong but I was talking to someone re: 2.0 TDI vs 1.6 petrol engines and I was told that the diesel while having loads of power once the turbo kicks is fairly powerless at low revs and slow to take off (say from a junction). This is down to the compression of the engine being designed for the turbo and so is underpowered before the turbo kicks in. Is this correct ?
If it is would that mean that a 1.6 petrol is better than 2L TDI for city driving while the TDI is better on the open road ?

Stephen · 11-04-2007 10:08pm

Well fuel economy wise the diesel is probably still better. If I was given the choice I wouldn't even look at the 1.6 petrol.

defenstration · 11-04-2007 10:29pm

voxpop wrote:

Correct me if im wrong but I was talking to someone re: 2.0 TDI vs 1.6 petrol engines and I was told that the diesel while having loads of power once the turbo kicks is fairly powerless at low revs and slow to take off (say from a junction). This is down to the compression of the engine being designed for the turbo and so is underpowered before the turbo kicks in. Is this correct ?
If it is would that mean that a 1.6 petrol is better than 2L TDI for city driving while the TDI is better on the open road ?

Wouldn't consider meself an expert in the field but I'd say in general, city driving would be better suited for any petrol car over its diesel equivalent. I drove a '00 BMW 3-series diesel the other day and it was pretty slow on the take off, and the owner was complaining that you would not be able to take off in 2nd like you would in some petrol cars. Also he said that you couldn't really cruise in 2nd gear like when yer approaching traffic lights or something - the thing would just stop. That said though, I didn't experience the same problems at all with the Passat TDI I drove this morning. Was like lightning off the mark, and was just as easy to handle when cruising in 2nd as my little Toyota Yaris!

unkel · 11-04-2007 10:41pm

defenstration wrote:

city driving would be better suited for any petrol car over its diesel equivalent

Quite the opposite really! Modern diesels have a lot of torque at very low revs and a very flat torque curve all the way to the red line. This means one can get away with very few gear changes i.e. stay in 3rd gear (or even 4th) around a roundabout. Also means their is a lot of acceleration available from low revs on

defenstration wrote:

I drove a '00 BMW 3-series diesel the other day and it was pretty slow on the take off, and the owner was complaining that you would not be able to take off in 2nd like you would in some petrol cars. Also he said that you couldn't really cruise in 2nd gear like when yer approaching traffic lights or something - the thing would just stop

There must have been something wrong with it

maidhc · 11-04-2007 11:12pm

unkel wrote:

Quite the opposite really! Modern diesels have a lot of torque at very low revs and a very flat torque curve all the way to the red line.

I disagree.

A petrol is much easier for city driving. Even a small 1.25 fiesta will beat a powerful diesel to 20mph, and the diesels are a bit chuggy and angry in heavy traffic. The fact they will stall when you look at them sideways doesn't help either.

Once you get out on an open road (or even out of 1st gear) the story is completely different though.

colm_mcm · 11-04-2007 11:36pm

I generally find the VW diesels pretty quick from low revs, moreso than Toyota engines which need to be revved harder.

ZiabR · 11-04-2007 11:48pm

bazz26 wrote:

That's because it is the same engine in both cars along with various other VWs, Audis, Seats and Skodas.

Is that not what i said?

Fizman · 11-04-2007 11:53pm

I saw a GIT badge on the back of a Golf last week in Ennistymon :rolleyes:

BostonB · 12-04-2007 1:26am

maidhc wrote:

I disagree.

A petrol is much easier for city driving. Even a small 1.25 fiesta will beat a powerful diesel to 20mph,

Not unless its Harry Potters fiesta.

maidhc wrote:

and the diesels are a bit chuggy and angry in heavy traffic. The fact they will stall when you look at them sideways doesn't help either. ...

Love the technical terms... "chuggy and angry"

I dunno what you've been driving but I've never driven a diesel like that, and I've driven some awful slow NA diesels in the past. I will agree that a small car has generally lighter controls and can easier around town.

HungryJoey · 12-04-2007 4:10am

Something I have always wondered about my fathers 05' passat ( Old model ) It is a TDI(All silver) But AFAIK it was sold to him new as a 110BHP model. But people are reporting here that that is only 90BHP ? I thought the 90BHP unit was only used in the 97-01 passat?

Another interesting this I noticed I have seen quite alot of 05 passats ( Older models ) that would of been the last remaining batch of the old models for sale, and alot of the TDI's are all silver but if you look at any other year you'll never see an all silver TDI in the 01-05 Passat.

Can somebody tell me where I can actually look on the car chassis where it will say the power output... I'm curious.

Hj

_Kaiser_ · 12-04-2007 7:07am

My 02 Passat TDI is 130 Bhp and is a lot faster off the lights and into third than most manuals I come across - and she's an automatic! Tons of power.

Definitely go for the 130 Bhp version. The Passat is a big car and you'll need the extra power, without the extra fuel costs.

fletch · 12-04-2007 7:32am

maidhc wrote:

I disagree.

A petrol is much easier for city driving. Even a small 1.25 fiesta will beat a powerful diesel to 20mph, and the diesels are a bit chuggy and angry in heavy traffic. The fact they will stall when you look at them sideways doesn't help either.

Once you get out on an open road (or even out of 1st gear) the story is completely different though.

I would disagree...I drive a VAG TDI with 6 gears and it's a pleasure in heavy traffic as you can literally lift your foot off the clutch as quick as you like without using the accelerator and it won't cut out. However I would agree that it can be slow to take off, 1st gear just gets you moving really and you need to go for second very quickly.(particularly noticeable in wet weather where you just get a bundle of wheelspin/traction control light)

maidhc · 12-04-2007 10:15am

fletch wrote:

I would disagree...I drive a VAG TDI with 6 gears and it's a pleasure in heavy traffic as you can literally lift your foot off the clutch as quick as you like without using the accelerator and it won't cut out. However I would agree that it can be slow to take off, 1st gear just gets you moving really and you need to go for second very quickly.(particularly noticeable in wet weather where you just get a bundle of wheelspin/traction control light)

Interesting. My own car is a Focus TDCi, but regularly drive a 2.0 Avensis D4 and 06 Passat 1.9TDI (and the Gfs 1.25 Fiesta...). They diesels all behave the same in traffic. Trying to take off in second is a guaranteed stall in any, and generally trying to move along at 2mph is an unpleasant experience... especially where I do get stuck in traffic as there is a slight incline in the road.

The old N/A diesels were fine in traffic, if slow. I just think the common rail engines are not suited to that kind of work.

No diesel is great at the traffic lights (even the fabled 130 bhp TDI....), as the turbo will need to spool up to 1400-1800 rpm before anything happens. There is a huge difference between the focus and D4D in this regard...the D4D takes longer (but will pull straight to the red line once it gets going). The TDi is somewhere in the middle, but it is harder work due to the very narrow powerband.

fletch · 12-04-2007 10:25am

maidhc wrote:

Trying to take off in second is a guaranteed stall in any, and generally trying to move along at 2mph is an unpleasant experience... especially where I do get stuck in traffic as there is a slight incline in the road.

I don't ever really take off in 2nd gear, only maybe perhaps on a decline so cant comment. Its actually quite difficult to get my TDI to cut out...even on very steep inclines the torque just pulls it up the hill with absolutely no accelerator input needed.

omega man · 12-04-2007 10:58am

Not sure if the passat was the same as the golf. Originally the silver tdi was 90, red i was 105 and the red di was 115. later changed to 100, 110 and 130 respectively i think. All very confusing so you really you have to check the manual or the boot to check the KW power figure to be sure.

omega man · 12-04-2007 11:03am

logik wrote:

TDI = 100BHP
TD (red) I = 110BHP
T (red) D (red) I = 130BHP

The 130BHP is a weapon, very fast for the fuel type. Much like the Audi engines.

Hardly a weapon in the passat in fairness! Gives a bit of poke but only in a small car like the fabia etc does it give any kind of performance and even thats limited as standard tbh.

Lex Luthor · 12-04-2007 11:58am

also be aware that a 1.9 TDI VW is not the same bhp as a 1.9 TDI Audi...

one example

VW Passat 1.9TDI = 130bhp
Audi A4 1.9 TDI = 130bhp

Biro · 12-04-2007 2:11pm

There's a lot of crap floating around about letters and bhp.
97-01 VW started out relatively straight forward, 90bhp TDi (all silver). 110 had red i. There were a small few red i's by dealers on 90bhp models. Then they changed to the pump deuse engines in the face-lift 01-05 model. These were 100 and 130, and the 100 had a red D and red i, and in some cases the 130 had the same, and in others the 130 had just the red i. In 02 they had a few 100's with just a red i and a few 130's with red D and red i. They by and large chopped and changed for the remainder of that model, even in 04 reverting to all silver lettering on the 100 model. In the new model the only 1.9 is a 105bhp version of the old 100, and the next models are a 2 litre 140 and 2 litre 170. (or 168 to be exact). In the A4 instead of 105 you get 115 in the 1.9, and the same two 2 litres. Before these you got the same choice as the passat.
The Golf was different, as it was a year later in receiving the newer engines, but they did get a stop-gap PD engine with 115 bhp. Then reverted to the normal 100, 130 ones with an additional 150 on an anniversary model. Seat have a 163 version in an Ibiza of the 1.9tdi, but that might be UK only.

defenstration · 12-04-2007 2:36pm

Right, all in all, pretty much everyone seems to be directing me towards a TDi over a petrol. As it stands, I've pretty much narrowed my search down to a '02 Passat Comfortline. Still not fully decided as to whether to go for petrol or TDi. If anyone has anything to add as to why I should go for a petrol over a TDI, or vice versa, let me know. Again, speed and power isn't really important to me. tis just general driving comfort I'm after. So does it really even matter which I go for then?

Biro · 12-04-2007 3:13pm

defenstration wrote:

Right, all in all, pretty much everyone seems to be directing me towards a TDi over a petrol. As it stands, I've pretty much narrowed my search down to a '02 Passat Comfortline. Still not fully decided as to whether to go for petrol or TDi. If anyone has anything to add as to why I should go for a petrol over a TDI, or vice versa, let me know. Again, speed and power isn't really important to me. tis just general driving comfort I'm after. So does it really even matter which I go for then?

While the diesel is a much better option for the long trips, they are more sought after, will have higher milage, will probably be more expensive to maintain (with the advantage though of lower fuel bill), and will be harder on tyres.
The 1.6 petrol is weedy in this car, but if speed isn't a factor, then you could do worse to be honest. If you get a nice low-milage 1.6 petrol at a good price then there'd be nothing wrong with that. It won't be as popular when it comes for you to sell it on, but if you buy it cheap then you can afford to sell it cheap.

TDI - Red I, Red DI, ehat's the difference?!

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