Tax question

Macspower · 28-03-2007 12:58pm #1

Well I supposed good and bad news really. Good news is I was a winning player last year. I knew that but not really to what extent... I was selfemployed and my accountant is currently doing up my account for last year. He phoned me yesterday and asked me about the lodgements from neteller to my account. I told him what they were and he thinks I should declare them as incomeand pay tax on them. He said that he would make some enquiries on the matter but I don't want him to open a can of worms....

The amount while quite substantial should (hopefully) be nothing compared to this years winnings. ( my plan is for a great year :rolleyes: )

Anyone know the law on this? does anyone pay taxes in this country on poker winnings?

PM me if you don't want to post in a public forum.

Many thanks,

Mac

phantom_lord · 28-03-2007 1:01pm

nope, you've no tax obligations on the winnings.

bohsman · 28-03-2007 1:02pm

No taxes on gambling winnings in Ireland, nor can you write off losses.

Ste05 · 28-03-2007 1:02pm

Gambling income is all Tax Free, any Accountant worth his salt should have already known this.

Solksjaer · 28-03-2007 1:06pm

Ste05 wrote:

Gambling income is all Tax Free, any Accountant should have already known this.

Edit

Macspower · 28-03-2007 1:15pm

prob not worth his salt!!!! I'll go and inform the nit.....

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2007 1:20pm

This post has been deleted.

Killme00 · 28-03-2007 1:23pm

Macspower wrote:

Well I supposed good and bad news really. Good news is I was a winning player last year. I knew that but not really to what extent... I was selfemployed and my accountant is currently doing up my account for last year. He phoned me yesterday and asked me about the lodgements from neteller to my account. I told him what they were and he thinks I should declare them as incomeand pay tax on them. He said that he would make some enquiries on the matter but I don't want him to open a can of worms....

The amount while quite substantial should (hopefully) be nothing compared to this years winnings. ( my plan is for a great year :rolleyes: )

Anyone know the law on this? does anyone pay taxes in this country on poker winnings?

PM me if you don't want to post in a public forum.

Many thanks,

Mac

Poker winnings are classed as non Taxable Income...your accountant should have known this....get a new accountant, he's obviously a muppet

El Stuntman · 28-03-2007 4:24pm

could you all stop using the word accountant, I feel quite ill

ollyk1 · 28-03-2007 4:29pm

Why are you paying this person money to do your accounts?? If he doesn't know this what else does he not know?? I'd be very worried if I were you.

Solksjaer · 28-03-2007 4:30pm

The poker winnings tax money was just 'resting' in my account Dougal.

MrPillowTalk · 28-03-2007 4:49pm

I would be worried about your accountants competance. Also it seems very silly to declare it at all, revenue see offshore accounts like neteller and alarm bells start going off in their heads.

Macspower · 28-03-2007 4:49pm

spoke to him there now. He had verified what you guys said since we spoke last. first time he came across it he said....... i think he's a junior of some sort because he couldn't believe that you could make money from online poker. It wasn't a large amount of money but he said it was more than he made last year.

I'd say he's well motivated today ..... lol

Mac

LuckyLloyd · 28-03-2007 4:51pm

This post has been deleted.

Mr.Plough · 28-03-2007 4:56pm

hmmm. so isnt it better that that they didnt prove poker was a game of skill?

if they did then surely we would all have to start paying tax?

eggie · 28-03-2007 4:57pm

Accountancy is a broad subject, not all accountants cover all subjects - Tax being big enough to specialise in alone.

padser · 28-03-2007 4:57pm

I think people are going a bit overboard on the accountant. Assuming he doesn't play poker, and has never done the accounts of a winning poker player/gambler before how would he know that poker winnings are not taxxable?

I doubt its a mainstream topic when studying accountancy.....

MrPillowTalk · 28-03-2007 5:00pm

Mr.Plough wrote:

hmmm. so isnt it better that that they didnt prove poker was a game of skill?

if they did then surely we would all have to start paying tax?

This has been one of my main arguments for leaving the whole subject area alone with the govt.

Edit: All accountants should know that gambling income is not taxable, its fairly basic stuff.

ollyk1 · 28-03-2007 5:07pm

padser wrote:

I think people are going a bit overboard on the accountant. Assuming he doesn't play poker, and has never done the accounts of a winning poker player/gambler before how would he know that poker winnings are not taxxable?

I doubt its a mainstream topic when studying accountancy.....

I'd expect a person dealing with people finances (and charging hefty fees for their "expertise") to understand the tax treatment of income earned from contracts for difference and spreadbetting, both of which are treated as income from gambling by the Irish Revenue and therefore not to subject to income tax.

There is no difference in dealing with poker winnings or income earned from betting on horses or from cfds or spredbetting on the markets. Anyone dealing with people with significant earnings should have seen some income from a "gambling" activity of some form at a very early stage. This guy sounds very junior to me.

When I employ an expert and he demonstrates to me that he doesn't know something that seems fairly standard if "slightly" non standard to me I don't wait until I've lost a couiple of €kkk before I start asking questions. That's my approach to these matters but it's your money and you can do what you like with it.

42% of €20k = €8,400 at what point do you start asking questions??

By the way I think Boards should get some commision Macs!!

ollyk1 · 28-03-2007 5:10pm

MrPillowTalk wrote:

This has been one of my main arguments for leaving the whole subject area alone with the govt.

I disagree Eoin for the reason that in light of the government backing down very quickly on the idea of taxing income earned on CFDs they don't have a leg to stand on in respect of any proposal to tax other gambling earnings.

The pool of winning players in poker is very small compared to the pool of people making money (and much more money) from the markets.

The best place from the govt to make money from poker is by regulating the industry and taxing the casinos profits anything else is nonsensical in the long run.

Wreck · 28-03-2007 5:14pm

Mr.Plough wrote:

hmmm. so isnt it better that that they didnt prove poker was a game of skill?

if they did then surely we would all have to start paying tax?

This is probably what will happen eventually, as the government are extremely unlikely to ignore this potential source of revenue, especially if poker continues to rise in popularity.

I can't believe even a trainee accountant didn't know that income from poker isn't taxed. It is actually included as part of the tax syllabus for first year trainee's, and it is something (one of the few things

) I can actually remember being mentioned in lectures.

Ste05 · 28-03-2007 5:14pm

IMO the main reason Gambling income is not taxable is because, if it was, it would have to be possible to write off Gambling losses against your taxes.

MrPillowTalk · 28-03-2007 5:15pm

ollyk1 wrote:

I disagree Eoin for the reason that in light of the government backing down very quickly on the idea of taxing income earned on CFDs they don't have a leg to stand on in respect of any proposal to tax other gambling earnings.

The pool of winning players in poker is very small compared to the pool of people making money (and much more money) from the markets.

The best place from the govt to make money from poker is by regulating the industry and taxing the casinos profits anything else is nonsensical in the long run.

I think they could well make a case whereby if your sole income/or a substantial ammount of your income is derived from gambling on games of skill/luck then it should be taxable.

Also they could set up a taxation system similar to the way they tax income from property and class poker/gambling income as "unearned" when anyone who works in property will tell you its anything but unearned. Im not exactly sure how it would work but I think they could then get away with making gambling losses non tax deductable but gambling invome over a limit taxable.

Macspower · 28-03-2007 5:19pm

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I would be worried about your accountants competance. Also it seems very silly to declare it at all, revenue see offshore accounts like neteller and alarm bells start going off in their heads.

I was going to have a word in the bosses ear but I don't want to get the young lad in trouble but I will be going through the books when I get them back.

I now have a special account for poker but at the time it was going into my company account (stupid I know). guaranteed they wont know this year

Mac

loadabollocks · 28-03-2007 9:55pm

i am a trainee accountant and i can tell you there is a hell of a lot of stuff i dont' know. this chap is most likely in the same position as i am. you get to deal with clients and if there is something you don't know, you ASK. that's how learning works in a lot of cases. give the chap a break ffs.

Goodluck2me · 28-03-2007 10:23pm

this is pretty basic stuff imo, revenue law only have a few major areas. Schedule D/E and you should know what falls into what i.e. that Gambling amongst others doesnt...

its not like he has to learn the Stuff inside out

PiperT · 28-03-2007 10:36pm

bohsman wrote:

No taxes on gambling winnings in Ireland, nor can you write off losses.

As far as I am aware, if you are a professional gambler (i.e. gambling is your sole source of income) then your winnings are considered as income for tax purposes. There are obvious ways around this but I think this is the technical position as far as revenue are concerned.

In Macspowers case, he is self employed and therefore his supplementary gambling income is tax exempt.

Macspower · 28-03-2007 10:45pm

In fairness to the chap he phoned me to ask me about the lodgements and when I told him he said he wished I hadn't put them into my business account as he may now need to count them as income. He said he would check it out and get back to me but I posted here first.... When I spoke to him the second time he was amazed that there are people out there making a living at poker in Ireland. What may complicate things a bit is that I bought some macinery for the business from my winnings.I think he said that he may have to count it as new capital from personal resourses...or something to that effect..

Do the guys in the UK have t pay taxes?? was looking at 2+2 and there is a full section on it..

Goodluck2me · 28-03-2007 10:51pm

PiperT wrote:

As far as I am aware, if you are a professional gambler (i.e. gambling is your sole source of income) then your winnings are considered as income for tax purposes. .

that is incorrect. whether it is your sole income or not it doenst count.

dermot_sheehan · 28-03-2007 11:13pm

According to Graham v. Green (Inspector of Taxes) [1925] All E.R. Rep. 690; 9 Tax Cas. 309. gambling winnings are not taxable, even if sole source of income:

Apart from certain bank deposit interest, an individual's sole means of livelihood was, and had been for many years, betting on horses from his private residence with bookmakers at starting prices only. He was assessed to income tax under Schedule D in respect of his betting transactions, and the General Commissioners, on appeal, confirmed the assessment. Held, that his winnings from betting were not profits or gains assessable to income tax, Schedule D, either under Case I or Case II as from a trade or vocation, or under Case VI.

MacStacked · 28-03-2007 11:26pm

gabhain7 wrote:

gambling winnings are not taxable, even if sole source of income:

From what I am aware this is untrue. I spoke with a very senior accountant last week and we spoke about this specifically for a period. To quote him exactly "if you were to claim poker earnings as your sole source of income for an entire year it would not be tax free..no way."

Tax question

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