North West motorway on agenda

murphaph · 02-04-2007 12:00am

mike65 wrote:

Others get together and scream blue murder. We don't.

Which is to be admired in my book. There's a lot to be said for stoicism-ask any Dublin commuter how they're treated by 'Dublin'-they won't be long in telling you

......but we in Dublin and the southeast and I'd say south too are just not born moaners. we just get on with generating the wealth that supports the country. Cork in fact gets a particularly raw deal given the contribution she makes to the economy.

K-9 · 02-04-2007 11:38pm

murphaph wrote:

Which is to be admired in my book. There's a lot to be said for stoicism-ask any Dublin commuter how they're treated by 'Dublin'-they won't be long in telling you ......but we in Dublin and the southeast and I'd say south too are just not born moaners. we just get on with generating the wealth that supports the country. Cork in fact gets a particularly raw deal given the contribution she makes to the economy.

Build the childrens hospital now then and put the incinerator in Poolbeg. Listen to Joe Duffy, what percentage of callers are from Dublin? :rolleyes:

The country needs to be developed overall, or else everything will go to Dublin and we'll have more moaners on Joe Duffy.:rolleyes:

K-9 · 02-04-2007 11:41pm

Actually mightn't be a bad thing. You's will all be coming to Donegal for the peace and quite even if you's don't want to pay for decent roads there.:)

Schuhart · 05-04-2007 5:51pm

murphaph wrote:

a lot to be said for stoicism-ask any Dublin commuter how they're treated by 'Dublin'-they won't be long in telling you ......but we in Dublin and the southeast and I'd say south too are just not born moaners. we just get on with generating the wealth that supports the country. Cork in fact gets a particularly raw deal given the contribution she makes to the economy.

Fair point, and I think you right to probe what this 'Dublin' is that metes out this 'treatment'. If memory serves, only about a dozen FF TDs represent Dublin. The vast bulk of their representation comes from West of Maynooth. The SE is neglected - by the mindset of the people electing the Government, who are far from overwhelmingly Dublin people. On the other hand, I've seen speculation that Donegal might return 5 FF TDs out of 6 seats. It looks to me like the comment 'the SE is badly treated by Donegal' is more warranted by the facts of the matter.

As for decentralisation, people with a fixation on ripping stuff out of Dublin haven't really lost their mindset of dependancy on London, because that's the alternative.

K-9 · 05-04-2007 11:29pm

Schuhart wrote:

Fair point, and I think you right to probe what this 'Dublin' is that metes out this 'treatment'. If memory serves, only about a dozen FF TDs represent Dublin. The vast bulk of their representation comes from West of Maynooth. The SE is neglected - by the mindset of the people electing the Government, who are far from overwhelmingly Dublin people. On the other hand, I've seen speculation that Donegal might return 5 FF TDs out of 6 seats. It looks to me like the comment 'the SE is badly treated by Donegal' is more warranted by the facts of the matter.

As for decentralisation, people with a fixation on ripping stuff out of Dublin haven't really lost their mindset of dependancy on London, because that's the alternative.

Donegal actually has 5 out of 6 TD's now FF.

I don't remember any Donegal TD's when they visited Bertie et al campaigning for Motorway/dual carriageway status saying "Give us our motorway and leave the SE". If people in the SE make enough of an issue out of it and go together, maybe they will get the same treatment.

No point moaning about Donegal getting stuff, that's the same as people with a fixation on ripping stuff out of Dublin, except you are substituting Donegal.

Schuhart · 06-04-2007 12:01pm

The money all comes out of one pot, so the more spent on Donegal the less there is elsewhere. If, for the sake of argument, the Government decides to chuck €86 million at regional airports for no particular reason, then that’s €86 million that could have be used to reduce the €100 million portion of the Cork Airport debt left to be paid by the CAA.

The issue is how decisions regarding resource allocation are made and where responsibility should reside. Using ‘Dublin’ as shorthand for ‘decision-makers’ is misleading, as the mindset of those decision makers has little to do with Dublin. If you are somewhere that has almost opted for a FF one party state, then can I suggest there certainly is plenty of reason to be called to account for the position the SE finds itself in.

It’s right to mention if, for the sake of argument, Donegal elects a politician willing to drive Salmon stocks to oblivion just to court temporary popularity with a few voters. I think we need to start assigning responsibility where it rests, which isn't in Dublin.

Bards · 06-04-2007 12:47pm

we really should start a new thread about the S.E and the reason why it is doing so bad economically when it's location would suggest that it should be performing better than the Mid West and South.

I personally think some of the main reasons that it is not doing so well are

1.) only Gateway City with no Universtiy

2.) situated between Cork & Dublin both locations feeding off the S.E - for their own ends - thus draining the S.E of resources. E.G Regional Director of the IDA S.E is based in Cork. Public Cancer Care for patients must go to Dublin

ESB, Bord Gais S.E HQ all moved to Cork

S.E Health Board now administered out of Cork (HSE South)

the S.E seems to be the only area that has suffered from Decentralisition. I.E Services decentralised out of the region and moved to another.

Rant Over

Schuhart · 06-04-2007 9:25pm

Bards wrote:

situated between Cork & Dublin both locations feeding off the S.E - for their own ends - thus draining the S.E of resources.

I never go with the ‘draining resources’ argument. If memory serves, I've gone through discussion on this (either here or on politics.ie) where I think the conclusion has been that there’s no enormous gap in principle between the kinds of things people in Waterford say and the kinds of things people in Dublin say. There is an urban agenda, frustrated by a rural mindset that pervades the political system. I’m just a little worried that the ‘draining resources’ line in a comfort zone that people can fall back on almost by accident that implicitly supports that rural mindset.

Dublin and the Mid East region frankly don’t need to rob business from Waterford. What they do need is to be within the EU borders and to have the wherewithal necessary to compete as a location with equivalent regions elsewhere in Europe. Dublin is starved of those resources. Take a trip to the airport if you’ve any doubt about that, and consider how your journey there won’t involve rail. Those resources do get pissed away elsewhere. Consider the investment in Shannon and Cork airports that passengers using Dublin’s cramped terminal are paying for today. Them’s is the facts, but for some reason public debate is carried out as if Dublin was in some way subsidised by Mayo rather than the reverse.

As I see it – not particularly wanting to pontificate, but just suggesting the ‘draining resources’ line really relates to something completely different – the SE problem seems to be a lack of synergy within the region. I’ve a feeling that, for the sake of argument, (and leaving go of the whole Kilkenny situation for a minute) Wexford people feel if they have to leave their county for a service, they might as well go to Dublin. If they all bought into a vision based around Waterford, more might be gained for them (ultimately). But getting that idea going seems to be a bit of a problem.

I know in a previous discussion elsewhere Waterford posters were able to report that the University campaign had managed to persuade Carlow IT to cop on and stop going ‘me too’. I think that’s really the key to change – plus seeing the source of the trouble is the rural mindset that pervades our political culture, not the outlook from Dublin which actually shares many of the same concerns.

K-9 · 06-04-2007 11:36pm

Schuhart wrote:

The money all comes out of one pot, so the more spent on Donegal the less there is elsewhere. If, for the sake of argument, the Government decides to chuck €86 million at regional airports for no particular reason, then that’s €86 million that could have be used to reduce the €100 million portion of the Cork Airport debt left to be paid by the CAA.

But there is a particular reason for giving this money to Donegal/Derry and the reast of the NW.

Schuhart wrote:

The issue is how decisions regarding resource allocation are made and where responsibility should reside. Using ‘Dublin’ as shorthand for ‘decision-makers’ is misleading, as the mindset of those decision makers has little to do with Dublin.

That is in your opinion. It's hard for politicians to ignore the 1.5Ml. people living in Greater Dublin to. All the chat in the run up to the election is about Dublin and the urban vote.

Schuhart wrote:

If you are somewhere that has almost opted for a FF one party state, then can I suggest there certainly is plenty of reason to be called to account for the position the SE finds itself in.

There is plenty of people who will say a "FF one party state" has done us no good. And of course, it works both ways. If its the same TD's after the next election and FG are in power well it will work against us. But maybe not, if in your opinion Donegal/Rural voters have more to blame for the SE than your own elected representatives/Government.

Schuhart wrote:

It’s right to mention if, for the sake of argument, Donegal elects a politician willing to drive Salmon stocks to oblivion just to court temporary popularity with a few voters. I think we need to start assigning responsibility where it rests, which isn't in Dublin.

Completely off topic but I see your point. So if the Minister for Marine was from the SE of course this never would have happened.

K-9 · 06-04-2007 11:50pm

Schuhart wrote:

Them’s is the facts, but for some reason public debate is carried out as if Dublin was in some way subsidised by Mayo rather than the reverse.

I don't think this was suggested on this thread or indeed by the campaign to get funding for a NW motorway/dual carriageway.

Schuhart wrote:

As I see it – not particularly wanting to pontificate, but just suggesting the ‘draining resources’ line really relates to something completely different – the SE problem seems to be a lack of synergy within the region. I’ve a feeling that, for the sake of argument, (and leaving go of the whole Kilkenny situation for a minute) Wexford people feel if they have to leave their county for a service, they might as well go to Dublin. If they all bought into a vision based around Waterford, more might be gained for them (ultimately). But getting that idea going seems to be a bit of a problem.

That is the arguement Donegal/Derry has. The NW including Derry has finally got that synergy of basing around Letterkenny/Derry instead of going to Dublin/Belfast/London etc. It seems you are moaning about the NW getting funds ahead of the SE and saying it's got more to do with a lack of synergy in the SE. We have developed that synergy and a cross border approach. Maybe the SE could learn from our example rather than calling the NW to account for our proactive approach.

What you say the SE should be doing, you are then criticising the NW for actually doing;)

murphaph · 07-04-2007 9:51am

Seanies32 wrote:

The NW including Derry has finally got that synergy of basing around Letterkenny/Derry instead of going to Dublin

Strange thing to say for someone so in favour of a motorway to Dublin

The Northwest will have a motorway/HQDC to Belfast under current Roads Service plans anyway. Is a high quality link to the second biggest city on the island not enough, given that from there one can continue on DC/Motorway to Dublin anyway.

Schuhart · 07-04-2007 9:54am

Seanies32 wrote:

It's hard for politicians to ignore the 1.5Ml. people living in Greater Dublin to.

I'd question that by looking at the reality of the situation. Dublin does lose out, and has nothing like the infrastructure that would be expected in a city of its size. Ditto the regional cities. But, somehow, Charlestown ends up with an airport.

Seanies32 wrote:

It seems you are moaning about the NW getting funds ahead of the SE and saying it's got more to do with a lack of synergy in the SE.

I'm not sure that's quite the message. I'm suggesting that a rural mindset pervades decision making, meaning that regional development funds are not allocated on the basis of what is actually likely to promote regional development. Hence, the regional cities actually lose out compared to less deserving and less useful projects - like Cork Airport losing out to Knock, even though Knock has nothing to offer. However, debate tends to discuss things as if Cork has lost out to Dublin - even if, whatever happens, Dublin gets left with most of the bill.

K-9 · 07-04-2007 8:18pm

murphaph wrote:

Strange thing to say for someone so in favour of a motorway to Dublin The Northwest will have a motorway/HQDC to Belfast under current Roads Service plans anyway. Is a high quality link to the second biggest city on the island not enough, given that from there one can continue on DC/Motorway to Dublin anyway.

The actual quote was

Seanies32 wrote:

That is the arguement Donegal/Derry has. The NW including Derry has finally got that synergy of basing around Letterkenny/Derry instead of going to Dublin/Belfast/London etc. It seems you are moaning about the NW getting funds ahead of the SE and saying it's got more to do with a lack of synergy in the SE. We have developed that synergy and a cross border approach. Maybe the SE could learn from our example rather than calling the NW to account for our proactive approach.

What you say the SE should be doing, you are then criticising the NW for actually doing;)

Are you seriously suggesting that people from Derry/Donegal go to Dublin V. Belfast. By the same argument people from the SE should go to Cork V. Dublin or Dublin V. Cork. Have you actually ever used the Main Derry to Belfast road. It's a disgrace.

Schuhart wrote:

I'm not sure that's quite the message. I'm suggesting that a rural mindset pervades decision making, meaning that regional development funds are not allocated on the basis of what is actually likely to promote regional development. Hence, the regional cities actually lose out compared to less deserving and less useful projects - like Cork Airport losing out to Knock, even though Knock has nothing to offer. However, debate tends to discuss things as if Cork has lost out to Dublin - even if, whatever happens, Dublin gets left with most of the bill.

I do agree that there can be a rural mindset as you outline above and very little cost/benefit analysis seems to be done. With urban sprawl in Dublin nearly on a par with LA;) we also need balanced regional development to. The National Development plan will hopefully go some way to address this.

Victor · 08-04-2007 10:10am

This thread is about "North West motorway on agenda", the next mention of Waterford or the South East will attract a ban.

Schuhart · 08-04-2007 11:08am

Seanies32 wrote:

I do agree that there can be a rural mindset as you outline above and very little cost/benefit analysis seems to be done. With urban sprawl in Dublin nearly on a par with LA;) we also need balanced regional development to. The National Development plan will hopefully go some way to address this.

Indeed, but policy will only promote regional development if we invest in a few centres to promote scale, rather than a 'something for everyone in the audience' approach like we've seen (for the sake of argument) in the airports sector where tiny airports like Knock have been given a higher priority than Cork.

I suppose I just find this proposal has to climb that credibility gap, because I don't see what Donegal can contribute to regional development as it simply hasn't got the potential to develop a centre of scale.

ardmacha · 08-04-2007 9:42pm

Derry is the 4th largest city in the country, a place of scale in the Irish context and it should be better connected to Dublin, especially as it has nothing like a direct rail route. Better links to Belfast are also needed, but Belfast doesn't yet have a HQDC/motorway link to Dublin never mind Derry (although they have started clearance work for a proper Newry bypass).

murphaph · 09-04-2007 6:22pm

Seanies32 wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that people from Derry/Donegal go to Dublin V. Belfast.

No, but are you serioulsy suggesting they need a motorway to get to Dublin and that an upgraded A5/N2 (to say 2+1) couldn't do the job, seeing as the northwest has done such a good job in its own right, without needing to be connected to Dublin?

Seanies32 wrote:

By the same argument people from the SE should go to Cork V. Dublin or Dublin V. Cork. Have you actually ever used the Main Derry to Belfast road. It's a disgrace.

It's going to be upgraded before any motorway to Dublin is built. It has already been announced. The stretch from Dungiven to Derry will be near motorway standard in fact.

K-9 · 09-04-2007 6:56pm

murphaph wrote:

No, but are you serioulsy suggesting they need a motorway to get to Dublin and that an upgraded A5/N2 (to say 2+1) couldn't do the job.

A combination of motorway/dual carriageway/2+1 as you say. Really what the Northern Ireland authorites do is up to them despite Cross border funding. They do seem to favour 2+1 roads. And your post did suggest using the Belfast Raod and on to Dublin.

murphaph wrote:

seeing as the northwest has done such a good job in its own right, without needing to be connected to Dublin?

Where did you get that impression. Of course we are connected to Dublin as is everywhere else.

murphaph wrote:

It's going to be upgraded before any motorway to Dublin is built. It has already been announced. The stretch from Dungiven to Derry will be near motorway standard in fact.

Yes, a good road to Belfast as well as Dublin is needed for the NW. Same as say Sligo, needs good roads to Dublin and Galway.

JupiterKid · 19-04-2007 6:01pm

I doubt that Donegal merits a direct motorway link to Dublin - its population is too small and dispersed to justify such an expensive project.

On the other hand, what IS urgently required is a dual carriageway link from Derry to Letterkenny (which are very closely linked functionally), with an improved Letterkenny/Lifford road (maybe new 2+1 road design) and an improved A5 through Tyrone. If you look at the roads in Northern Ireland, for decades they were way ahead of the Republic with their M1 and M2 motorways built in the 1960s and early 70s and the other dual carriageways. However, west of the Bann, there were few significant road upgrades and this was done for political reasons. Even today, Derry still does not have a dual carriageway link with Belfast.

The A5 should be dualled in a few places, as should the N2 in Monaghan to allow safe overtaking. Any major upgrading of the N2 between Ashbourne and Ardee (excepting a much needed Slane bypass) would be a waste of money as most Derry and North Donegal bound traffic out of Dublin now uses the M1 as far as Dunleer.

nordydan · 14-11-2007 5:46pm

http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news/news-drd/news-drd-141107-major-dual-carriageway.htm

Looks like the entire Northern part (88km) will be upgraded to DC. Route selection will commence soon.

smashey · 14-11-2007 5:51pm

Excellent news.

benbulbin · 14-11-2007 11:34pm

Schuhart wrote: »

Indeed, but policy will only promote regional development if we invest in a few centres to promote scale, rather than a 'something for everyone in the audience' approach like we've seen (for the sake of argument) in the airports sector where tiny airports like Knock have been given a higher priority than Cork.

Why do you insist on turning every discussion on regional infrastructure in this and other forums into a rant about your pet peeve Knock airport? The regional airports have survived on occasional scraps of grants for the last 10 years. They are hardly draining the capital of resources for infrastructure. You have our leaders lack of vision to thank for that.

Propellerhead · 15-11-2007 11:08am

Ah, but every tax cent spent on infrastructure is a cent less in the pocket of the drinkers in Nesbitts! Therefore spending money on infrastructure over and above providing roads for the drivers and buses for the proles is an Abomination.

That's the iron law of infrastructural investment.

mise_me_fein · 15-11-2007 1:16pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

The A5 should be dualled in a few places, as should the N2 in Monaghan to allow safe overtaking. Any major upgrading of the N2 between Ashbourne and Ardee (excepting a much needed Slane bypass) would be a waste of money as most Derry and North Donegal bound traffic out of Dublin now uses the M1 as far as Dunleer.

They really should have made the dual carriageway on the N2 to the turnoff for Duleek, "cherry picker". There are regular traffic jams between the end of the HQDC and the cherry picker and this is going to get worse.

I'd like to see a decent road between Ashbourne to the end of Ardee as some of the junctions on the N2 are crazy. Really really dangerous and someone will be killed on some of them. They are going to by-pass Slane and Ardee.

I'm from Ardee, anyone who says upgrading the N2 is a waste of money is full of it and I'll tell you why. It takes way too long to get through Slane for anyone heading north and a lot of people don't use the M1. A lot of people from Navan, Kells and Cavan are using the N2 and turning off just before Slane to avoid the N3.

The gov needs to stop neglecting routes like this.

By the way, the only reason Ardee could be seen to be in the "greater Dublin area" is due to the lack of job creation in the town itself and the amount of people having to travel to Dublin. 40/45 miles a day is too long of a commute.

fricatus · 15-11-2007 2:55pm

mise_me_fein wrote: »

I'm from Ardee, anyone who says upgrading the N2 is a waste of money is full of it and I'll tell you why. It takes way too long to get through Slane for anyone heading north and a lot of people don't use the M1. A lot of people from Navan, Kells and Cavan are using the N2 and turning off just before Slane to avoid the N3.

I think the point that people are making is that any government properly planning motorways in this country would have built the new M3 in between the old N2 and N3, made it three lanes and given it a dedicated junction with the M50. Just look at a map: it makes sense to run them as one big route out of Dublin as far as the N51 east of Navan, and then split them for Cavan/Sligo on one hand and Derry on the other.

This is emblematic of a wider mistake that the government made in its motorways programme: it stuck too religiously to existing routes for the interurban motorways. They could have built one motorway from Dublin as far as Birr, and split it at that point for Limerick and Galway. Similarly, they could have built the M8/M9 as one road as far as say, Freshford in KK, and then split it for W@terford and Cork then. The money they saved could have been diverted to the NW motorway.

Victor wrote: »

This thread is about "North West motorway on agenda", the next mention of Waterford or the South East will attract a ban.

Just making sure you notice above, I didn't actually write the "W" word.

nordydan · 15-11-2007 3:29pm

I wonder would they think about putting the Aughnacloy-M1 section via Armagh/Newry. I wonder where Conor Murphy's constituency is again??

dowlingm · 17-12-2007 7:22pm

Two points:

1. How many miles of railway would 660m STG build?

2. Will all this improved connectivity mean Irish taxpayers won't need to subsidise flights from Donegal and Derry to Dublin?

(oh and a question - since when have press releases referring to what are currently UK roads denoted in kilometres?)

Redsoxfan · 17-12-2007 9:28pm

Kinda related to the thread topic, but what works are going on around the Ballygawley roundabout at the moment-please tell me whatever they are doing will do something to alleviate the jams that occur when queuing at the the T-junction going North-West?

ardmacha · 19-12-2007 7:25pm

How many miles of railway would 660m STG build?

How much money would be needed to cover the losses of such a railway?

Will all this improved connectivity mean Irish taxpayers won't need to subsidise flights from Donegal and Derry to Dublin?

Will subsidised flights to other regions also be discontinued?

oh and a question - since when have press releases referring to what are currently UK roads denoted in kilometres?)

All NIRS activities are in kilometres, except their roadsigns.

Roads Service is the sole road authority in Northern Ireland, responsible for just over 25,000 kilometres of public roads together with about 9,000 kilometres of footways, 5,800 bridges, 261,000 street lights and 370 public car parks.

http://www.roadsni.gov.uk/index/whatwedo.htm

E92 · 20-12-2007 2:30pm

Isn't it great that the roads in the Republic are so great that we can now afford to spend £400 million on a jurisdiction that contributes nothing to the taxes of this state:rolleyes:?

North West motorway on agenda

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