North West motorway on agenda

ardmacha

Breaking News
Package would fund biggest-ever cross-border project
22/03/2007 - 16:04:41

If accepted, the new financial package for the North announced today is to fund biggest-ever cross-border project to date - a major motorway to Donegal and Derry.

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern's Cabinet has pledged £400m (€589.5m) of British Chancellor Gordon Brown's total £1bn (€1.47bn) fund to help devolved Assembly ministers deal with infrastructural challenges in the months ahead.

Minister for Finance Minster Brian Cowen said the dual-carriageway road stretching to Derry and Donegal would remove the single biggest impediment to the future development of the Northwest and the border counties.

"It will be the biggest and most important cross-border project ever on this island," he added.

As Monday's deadline for devolution nears, Mr Cowen said Brown's package offers a real opportunity for economic progress to accompany political stability in the North.

"This unprecedented investment has been made possible through the joint contribution of the Irish and British governments and will benefit everybody on this island.

"The agreement on a major cross-border roads programme and a new North/South research and innovation fund represent the type of imaginative and ambitious policies that we need to pursue to secure peace and build future prosperity."

The Chancellor also supports wide proposals benefiting the North contained in the Irish Government's National Development Plan 2007-2013.

Mr Cowen said he now looked forward to the progression of projects like the Ulster Canal, Narrow Water Bridge as well as tourism and regional development.

"Work is already under way on a number of other projects, such as the re-opening of border roads, City of Derry Airport, the North West Gateway Initiative, electricity interconnection and the single electricity market," he added.

"There is also huge untapped potential for improving public services such as health and education through working together."

Victor

"It will be the biggest and most important cross-border project ever on this island," he added.

A peculiar way of saying it.

K-9

In fairness to FF they have done alot of work on the road in the last 6/7 years. Probably wouldn't take too much to upgrade the new sections that have been opened. Castleblayney is due to open this year, I believe and then it's the Emyvale section. The Northern part and Lifford to L'kenny are the worst parts.

I wonder what part of the route in the Republic they are chatting about. The N2 to Ardee and on to the NW or MI and then upgrade from there. Would be great to have the option of the M1 and the whole of the N2 as motorways/dual carriageways.

MLM

Seanies32 wrote:

In fairness to FF they have done alot of work on the road in the last 6/7 years. Probably wouldn't take too much to upgrade the new sections that have been opened. Castleblayney is due to open this year, I believe and then it's the Emyvale section. The Northern part and Lifford to L'kenny are the worst parts.

I wonder what part of the route in the Republic they are chatting about. The N2 to Ardee and on to the NW or MI and then upgrade from there. Would be great to have the option of the M1 and the whole of the N2 as motorways/dual carriageways.

Great. Three major motorways running through Meath and northwards. Four if you include the planned outer bypass of Dublin. One six lane motorway to the north with spurs to major population centres would have sufficed. What complete and utter waste of my and other taxpayers money!

K-9

So one to the North, presumably Belfast with spurs of it. One to the West, Galway, with spurs of it. One to the South, Cork, with spurs of it. Anything else would be a waste of tax payers money?

1huge1

As naive as this statement seems why should we pay that much
Its our money going to the country that recieves there money from one of the biggest governments in the world who surely has a lot more money than us

K-9

So we should have only 3 6 lane motorways. Thats ok because whats planned for the NW is a 4 lane Dual Carriageway.

The NW especially Donegal, needs this link more than any other. There is no rail service in Donegal and no direct rail service between Derry and Dublin. Other areas of the country get rail and motorway links so why not the NW. Also if you put all the traffic to Monaghan, Cavan, Belfast, Armagh, Derry, Donegal and L'kenny on the MI how would that affect traffic on the M50 and M1. There would be more traffic using the M50/M1 intersection on top of the Port Tunnel traffic. What would that cost taxpayers?

K-9

Well the funding for the North is another thread really.

Derry and L'kenny are linked together in the National Development plan for a reason. Strong economic and geographical ties.

Basically if the road to Derry isn't improved Donegal will suffer. We would be a spur of the main Derry route.

I take your point but why should Donegal suffer. This money is for the peace dividend which all the Border counties should also benefit from.

Victor

Seanies32 wrote:

The NW especially Donegal, needs this link more than any other. There is no rail service in Donegal and no direct rail service between Derry and Dublin. Other areas of the country get rail and motorway links so why not the NW. Also if you put all the traffic to Monaghan, Cavan, Belfast, Armagh, Derry, Donegal and L'kenny on the MI how would that affect traffic on the M50 and M1. There would be more traffic using the M50/M1 intersection on top of the Port Tunnel traffic. What would that cost taxpayers?

You have to admit that Donegal is on the edge of an island, beyond another island, on the edge of a continent.

So much of the demand for investment in Donegal sounds like "waaaaaaa!!!".

1huge1

Ya I didnt really take donegal into the equation my appologies
I was unaware that many donegal people worked in derry but I guess it makes sense

K-9

Victor wrote:

You have to admit that Donegal is on the edge of an island, beyond another island, on the edge of a continent.

So much of the demand for investment in Donegal sounds like "waaaaaaa!!!".

By the same argument Ireland shouldn't have got any EC funds because we're an island on the edge of another island on the edge of a continent! Some things should be taken away from Dublin to because the debate sounds like "waaaaa!!" ! The Children's hospital being one. Bring it to somewhere who actually would love to have it and stop the whinging!

Donegal people pay taxes and are entitled to decent infrastructure as well.

Alot of people work in Derry from Donegal and vice versa. I did myself for 3 years. The border doesn't really exist for employment and business.

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote:

The Children's hospital being one. Bring it to somewhere who actually would love to have it and stop the whinging!

More children live in Dublin than anywhere else, why make more sick children travel than needs be?

Seanies32 wrote:

Donegal people pay taxes and are entitled to decent infrastructure as well.

well you see that's debatable actually. Donegal people deserve the same per capita as anywhere else, but that's the problem for your county-it's population density is too low to warrant decent infrastructure throughout the county. There is something like 10 metres of road for every person in Dublin, so naturally there is plenty of money to maintain it. There is something like 5 miles of road for every person in Donegal, so clearly that road cannot be maintained to the same standard as the road in Dublin.......unless its maintenance cost is subsidised by taxpayers from outside Donegal, which is in fact what happens. We have to draw the line somewhere, do the good people of Achill Island deserve a motorway to Dublin as well?

Seanies32 wrote:

Alot of people work in Derry from Donegal and vice versa. I did myself for 3 years. The border doesn't really exist for employment and business.

But it exists for tax raising purposes. Your income tax you paid in Derry didn't go to Dublin, yet you want Dublin to pay for a road to you through a different jurisdiction. You don't pay rates in the RoI so just how much of a tax contribution did you make to the state for those 3 years? Doesn't make sense really. Derry itself isn't that big anyway and is hardly a buzzing centre of life with a huge market for goods from the RoI. At least Belfast has a decent population (market) for our goods. This isn't a personal attack on you btw, just general observations.

K-9

murphaph wrote:

More children live in Dublin than anywhere else, why make more sick children travel than needs be?

Not personal at all either, just arguing the point

Thats grand but when people from Dublin can't agree on a site and are ringing Liveline looking to have it 20 minutes from their house then action has to be taken. Some children have a 3/4/5/6 hour journey and parents have to find accomodation to the Children's hospital. Locate it in Dublin, definitely, nobodies saying not to, but if a site can't be agreed and nothings been done after 2/3 years take it somewhere that will get the thing actually built.

Somebody think of the children!

Achill Ireland as it is in Mayo will be well served by roads to the West, eg. Westport/Castlebar. I don't think people from Malin Head are looking for motorways so of course a line should be drawn for Arranmore or indeed Tory Island. Money from the EC was awarded to the BMW region for infrastructure as well 5/6 years ago and not Dublin. This is entitled to be spent on the BMW counties only, as well as taxpayers funds.

By the same argument Dublin should look after it's own waste seeing as they produce the most waste. So use Poolbeg for waste, or some site that can actually be agreed on and commission it.

Also should the Governments here have said no to EU Structural funds based on the fact that they had contributed less to the EU and where on the peripherary of Europe.

About taxpayers in different jurisdictions that is a different matter. I worked in Derry for 3 years so of course I wanted my taxes paid there to go towards a dual carriageway to Derry from the border. I didn't give an opinion on the South giving money to cross border projects but I know in the 80's we would have been grateful for money from the North, which in a way, the whole Republic got from the EU, as the UK contributed to the EC. Should the South give back the money we got from the EU, and therefor the UK, as we didn't pay our share of money to them.

I actually did pay tax in the South based on income I earned in the South while I was in the North. So if u haven't paid taxes in this country you are entitled to less of a say in how taxpayers funds are spent.. What about returned emigrants/non nationals/foreign multinationals. How many foreign multinational got subsidies from the Southern Govt. to locate here?

Derry is actually a thriving city, just the same as Galway, Waterford etc and will be more so with the peace dividend. The idea with funding cross border projects is to make a bigger market for ROI goods, so we will get our money back and more, if it anywhere near as successful as EU funds where for us. That is the idea of the money, to help the North economically. Again, going back to the EU funds argument, Europe didn't use this when they where funding Ireland with no guarantee of a return.

ardmacha

Leaving aside Donegal, Derry has twice the population of Waterford, which is getting a high quality road, so this balances up the geographic spread of road investment to some extent.

However there should be some consideration of routes other than just dualling the N2. Perhaps an extension of the M3 would do the trick. Or you could run the road from Dundalk to Monaghan, providing a substantial part of a needed Dundalk Sligo route, with a much improved Monaghan Eniskillen route to complete the picture.

MLM

ardmacha wrote:

Leaving aside Donegal, Derry has twice the population of Waterford, which is getting a high quality road, so this balances up the geographic spread of road investment to some extent.

However there should be some consideration of routes other than just dualling the N2. Perhaps an extension of the M3 would do the trick. Or you could run the road from Dundalk to Monaghan, providing a substantial part of a needed Dundalk Sligo route, with a much improved Monaghan Eniskillen route to complete the picture.

Agreed. Extending the M3 is a better idea than upgrading the N2. However I think we need to question whether there is a need to connect this region of the country to Dublin. Surely it would be a better and more economically feasible plan to connect Derry-Letterkenny to Belfast, giving access to two airports and two seaports, rather than a congested badly planned nightmare.

road_high

ardmacha wrote:

Leaving aside Donegal, Derry has twice the population of Waterford, which is getting a high quality road, so this balances up the geographic spread of road investment to some extent.

.

Yes and rightly so.. It has the fastest growing port in Ireland, unlike Derry/Donegal. The route is a lot shorter from Kilcullen to Waterford (110km give or take), and serve directly Kilkenny and Carlow both with populations pushing 25000 on the same route.It is also one of the very worst 'National' roads in the country, if not Europe with an accident rate twicw the national average in much of it
BTW I'm not against a decent road to Derry, I just don't think it's the same in comparison to distance, benefits to the Irish economy as having a decent motorway standard road from Dublin to Waterford.

K-9

But the point of any new infrastructure is to improve transport links to make it more economically viable and attract investment. Is it ok to build motorways to Waterford, Wexford etc. and ignore the NW? I don't think so. It's the only way the NW and Border counties will contribute more to the Irish economy.

EU funding is for the BMW Region and not the rest of the country so The Border counties and Donegal are entitled to that money being spent on transport links. This is in addition to Taxpayers funds. These roads service large population centres like Dundalk, Navan, Monaghan and Cavan as well.

Actually with the controversy over the M3 a M2 might be a better idea with links of it that would serve Navan, Cavan etc.

johnbk

I’m just new to the forum.

Having read other comments on the relatively new proposal of a new road from Dublin to the North West I thought I would add my opinion to the topic.

I had this correspondence from the Roads Service NI last summer.

Thank you for your attached e-mail of 4 August 2006.

The route to which you refer proposes a parallel motorway from Derry to Ballygawley (A5) to Armagh to Newry (A28). Unfortunately the traffic figures on this route (approximately 13,000 and 9,000 vehicles AADT respectively) do not merit the construction of a motorway, as a viable business case is not achievable, even based on traffic growth over the next 30 years.

Construction of a motorway on this route would not only be expensive, but would also require many years of planning and consultation with the local people who would be affected. The current strategy most recently published in a Public Consultation document on 31 July 2006 www.drdni.gov.uk will provide significant improvements to the A5, which is one of Northern Ireland's 5 Key Transport Corridors.

For example, in our current Strategic Road Improvement Programme we have the A5 Omagh Throughpass (£10m) and the A5/N14 Strabane-Lifford Link (£3m). In Annex B of the Public Consultation document, Roads Service is proposing £130m of improvements on the A5 between Londonderry and Victoria Bridge, including bypasses of New Buildings, Magheramason, Strabane and Sion Mills.

As you will see in the Public Consultation document, it is important to add that Roads Service has significant plans to upgrade the A6 route from Derry to Belfast. For example, £250m is being invested in upgrading 30km of dual carriageway from Derry to Dungiven, and a further £70m of investment for the 14km section of the A6 from Castledawson to Randalstown. When you combine these improvements with the upgrading proposals of the A1 route from Belfast to the Border, south of Newry, then I hope you will appreciate that significant investment is being provided on the road from Derry to Newry also.

I hope this information is helpful.

For your information, the consultation period on the proposed Expanded Strategic Road Improvement Programme began on 31 July 2006 for a 9 week period.

It is clear that this road project is only the idea of politicians at the moment but I think that the idea is supported by every political party on both sides of the border.

The republics National Development Plan on roads, although considerably behind the original proposed dates will be largely completed by 2010, they will even have completed a motorway to Waterford, a region with less people than the North West.

When Gregory Campbell DUP was asked about this project on Questions and Answers (Irish current affairs TV programme) on 26/03/07 he did not knock it but did say that any development should not leave out the east of Northern Ireland.

I see roads as a means to economical development and not the other way round. I think this road will and should happen to at least HQDC.

What I see as most interesting over the next couple of years is the route selection process, whether it is an extension of the M3 (North of Kells), upgrading the N2/A5 or a spur off the M1 at Newry through Armagh or at the Foyle, if it follows the Donegal or Tyrone/Derry side of the river?

I have drawn some of these:
http://northwestmotorway.blogspot.com/

mike65

No need for multi-threading, so merged.

Mike.

ardmacha

As the Republic's government will pay for a lot of this, I can't see the Newry-Derry route being a runner and Newry Armagh is not that easy a route for road building. The M3 option would be more radical. It probably boils down to mostly being the N2. The only issue is whether it is an extension of the Ashbourne HQDC, a link via N33 and Ardee or a Dundalk-Monaghan connection.

The West bank of the Foyle might be reasonable option when the route reaches that far, this would also provide connection to Letterkenny and Inishowen.

Gregory Campbell's comment is a concern if it implies some diversion of funds to the East of NI on the basis that the Irish government is doing the needful West of the Bann.

Bards

johnbk wrote:

The republics National Development Plan on roads, although considerably behind the original proposed dates will be largely completed by 2010, they will even have completed a motorway to Waterford, a region with less people than the North West.

From IDA website which gets it's figure from the CSO. The North West region comprises of three counties - Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim. It has a population of over 236,656 (2006 Census). The principal towns in the Region include Sligo, Carrick-on-Shannon and Letterkenny.

The South East Region has a popultation of 450,000 twice that of the North West

mike65

Hmmm, it seems the north-west is now including Derry/Londonderry in its arithmetic. Of course Waterford is not a region.

Mike.

ardmacha

Did Bertie not state that there was going to be a dual carriageway all the way to Rosslare, with two HQDC routes, and two railway lines the South East is well connected.

Donegal and Tyrone people have no railways.

mike65

The DC to Rosslare is aparently a mystical vision not in any actual plan. At least thats the impression I got listening to South-East Radio on Tuesday.

Mike.

K-9

Bards wrote:

From IDA website which gets it's figure from the CSO. The North West region comprises of three counties - Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim. It has a population of over 236,656 (2006 Census). The principal towns in the Region include Sligo, Carrick-on-Shannon and Letterkenny.

The South East Region has a popultation of 450,000 twice that of the North West

As Mike65 says, the NW is now considered Derry and I suppose Tyrone as well which would bring the figures roughly equal. Derry/Letterkenny as an economic hub area is identified in the National Development plan.

Also Donegal,Sligo,Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth are part of the BMW region and so qualify for EU funds which the South East does not.

johnbk

Limavady 32,522
Derry 105,000
Strabane 38,248
Omagh 47,952
Fermanagh 57,527
Total NI 281,249
Donegal 146,956
Total 428,205

road_high

Seanies32 wrote:

As Mike65 says, the NW is now considered Derry and I suppose Tyrone as well which would bring the figures roughly equal. Derry/Letterkenny as an economic hub area is identified in the National Development plan.

Also Donegal,Sligo,Leitrim, Monaghan, Cavan and Louth are part of the BMW region and so qualify for EU funds which the South East does not.

This is a ridiculous scenario imo, considering income figures for the s east are lowest in the country; yet we are no longer Objective 1.We badly need that motorway to boast the local economy and strengthen our links with Dublin and surrounds.

mike65

Without wanting to drag this completly off topic, the SE region is per capita the poorest in the State. Amazing but true. The region is badly treated by Dublin, mainly I think due to lack of regional solidarity. Others get together and scream blue murder. We don't.

Mike.

ardmacha

This thread is not about the South East and nobody is suggesting that they build the NW motorway instead of the M9, rather that the circumstances that justify the M9 also justify a similar route to the NW.

The South East is only the poorest region because Border includes Louth, which is really in the East and is quite prosperous. CSO stats show that Donegal has the lowest disposable income in the 26 counties, lower than any SE county. Tyrone wouldn't be overly prosperous and Monaghan is not as prosperous as Waterford and these places do not have rail access.

K-9

mike65 wrote:

Without wanting to drag this completly off topic, the SE region is per capita the poorest in the State. Amazing but true. The region is badly treated by Dublin, mainly I think due to lack of regional solidarity. Others get together and scream blue murder. We don't.

Mike.

What actually are the figures per region, just out of interest?

It's not a case of screaming blue murder at all. Ireland was in serious danger of losing EU funding and the BMW region was artificially created to ensure the continuation of the funds. SE needs to get together and make itself heard. No point moaning about the action of the BMW region because of inaction on SE's part. We need to act together on issues like this, and that includes the SE.

IMO, areas like the SE, NW etc. need good infrastructure just as much, if not more, than developed areas. There's no point people from cities complaining about traffic, overdevelopment, commuter belts, urban sprawl etc. and then moaning about efforts on the part of Govt. to spread development country wide.

ArdMacha wrote:

The South East is only the poorest region because Border includes Louth, which is really in the East and is quite prosperous. CSO stats show that Donegal has the lowest disposable income in the 26 counties, lower than any SE county. Tyrone wouldn't be overly prosperous and Monaghan is not as prosperous as Waterford and these places do not have rail access.

Parts of Louth would now be considered parts of Greater Dublin. e.g. Drogheda, Ardee.

Lennoxschips

this government is always harping on about decentralisation, but their entire goal seems to be to build as many roads to dublin as possible

murphaph

mike65 wrote:

Others get together and scream blue murder. We don't.

Which is to be admired in my book. There's a lot to be said for stoicism-ask any Dublin commuter how they're treated by 'Dublin'-they won't be long in telling you ......but we in Dublin and the southeast and I'd say south too are just not born moaners. we just get on with generating the wealth that supports the country. Cork in fact gets a particularly raw deal given the contribution she makes to the economy.

K-9

murphaph wrote:

Which is to be admired in my book. There's a lot to be said for stoicism-ask any Dublin commuter how they're treated by 'Dublin'-they won't be long in telling you ......but we in Dublin and the southeast and I'd say south too are just not born moaners. we just get on with generating the wealth that supports the country. Cork in fact gets a particularly raw deal given the contribution she makes to the economy.

Build the childrens hospital now then and put the incinerator in Poolbeg. Listen to Joe Duffy, what percentage of callers are from Dublin? :rolleyes:

The country needs to be developed overall, or else everything will go to Dublin and we'll have more moaners on Joe Duffy.:rolleyes:

K-9

Actually mightn't be a bad thing. You's will all be coming to Donegal for the peace and quite even if you's don't want to pay for decent roads there.:)

Schuhart

murphaph wrote:

a lot to be said for stoicism-ask any Dublin commuter how they're treated by 'Dublin'-they won't be long in telling you ......but we in Dublin and the southeast and I'd say south too are just not born moaners. we just get on with generating the wealth that supports the country. Cork in fact gets a particularly raw deal given the contribution she makes to the economy.

Fair point, and I think you right to probe what this 'Dublin' is that metes out this 'treatment'. If memory serves, only about a dozen FF TDs represent Dublin. The vast bulk of their representation comes from West of Maynooth. The SE is neglected - by the mindset of the people electing the Government, who are far from overwhelmingly Dublin people. On the other hand, I've seen speculation that Donegal might return 5 FF TDs out of 6 seats. It looks to me like the comment 'the SE is badly treated by Donegal' is more warranted by the facts of the matter.

As for decentralisation, people with a fixation on ripping stuff out of Dublin haven't really lost their mindset of dependancy on London, because that's the alternative.

K-9

Schuhart wrote:

Fair point, and I think you right to probe what this 'Dublin' is that metes out this 'treatment'. If memory serves, only about a dozen FF TDs represent Dublin. The vast bulk of their representation comes from West of Maynooth. The SE is neglected - by the mindset of the people electing the Government, who are far from overwhelmingly Dublin people. On the other hand, I've seen speculation that Donegal might return 5 FF TDs out of 6 seats. It looks to me like the comment 'the SE is badly treated by Donegal' is more warranted by the facts of the matter.

As for decentralisation, people with a fixation on ripping stuff out of Dublin haven't really lost their mindset of dependancy on London, because that's the alternative.

Donegal actually has 5 out of 6 TD's now FF.

I don't remember any Donegal TD's when they visited Bertie et al campaigning for Motorway/dual carriageway status saying "Give us our motorway and leave the SE". If people in the SE make enough of an issue out of it and go together, maybe they will get the same treatment.

No point moaning about Donegal getting stuff, that's the same as people with a fixation on ripping stuff out of Dublin, except you are substituting Donegal.

Schuhart

The money all comes out of one pot, so the more spent on Donegal the less there is elsewhere. If, for the sake of argument, the Government decides to chuck €86 million at regional airports for no particular reason, then that’s €86 million that could have be used to reduce the €100 million portion of the Cork Airport debt left to be paid by the CAA.

The issue is how decisions regarding resource allocation are made and where responsibility should reside. Using ‘Dublin’ as shorthand for ‘decision-makers’ is misleading, as the mindset of those decision makers has little to do with Dublin. If you are somewhere that has almost opted for a FF one party state, then can I suggest there certainly is plenty of reason to be called to account for the position the SE finds itself in.

It’s right to mention if, for the sake of argument, Donegal elects a politician willing to drive Salmon stocks to oblivion just to court temporary popularity with a few voters. I think we need to start assigning responsibility where it rests, which isn't in Dublin.

Bards

we really should start a new thread about the S.E and the reason why it is doing so bad economically when it's location would suggest that it should be performing better than the Mid West and South.

I personally think some of the main reasons that it is not doing so well are

1.) only Gateway City with no Universtiy

2.) situated between Cork & Dublin both locations feeding off the S.E - for their own ends - thus draining the S.E of resources. E.G Regional Director of the IDA S.E is based in Cork. Public Cancer Care for patients must go to Dublin

ESB, Bord Gais S.E HQ all moved to Cork

S.E Health Board now administered out of Cork (HSE South)

the S.E seems to be the only area that has suffered from Decentralisition. I.E Services decentralised out of the region and moved to another.

Rant Over

Schuhart

Bards wrote:

situated between Cork & Dublin both locations feeding off the S.E - for their own ends - thus draining the S.E of resources.

I never go with the ‘draining resources’ argument. If memory serves, I've gone through discussion on this (either here or on politics.ie) where I think the conclusion has been that there’s no enormous gap in principle between the kinds of things people in Waterford say and the kinds of things people in Dublin say. There is an urban agenda, frustrated by a rural mindset that pervades the political system. I’m just a little worried that the ‘draining resources’ line in a comfort zone that people can fall back on almost by accident that implicitly supports that rural mindset.

Dublin and the Mid East region frankly don’t need to rob business from Waterford. What they do need is to be within the EU borders and to have the wherewithal necessary to compete as a location with equivalent regions elsewhere in Europe. Dublin is starved of those resources. Take a trip to the airport if you’ve any doubt about that, and consider how your journey there won’t involve rail. Those resources do get pissed away elsewhere. Consider the investment in Shannon and Cork airports that passengers using Dublin’s cramped terminal are paying for today. Them’s is the facts, but for some reason public debate is carried out as if Dublin was in some way subsidised by Mayo rather than the reverse.

As I see it – not particularly wanting to pontificate, but just suggesting the ‘draining resources’ line really relates to something completely different – the SE problem seems to be a lack of synergy within the region. I’ve a feeling that, for the sake of argument, (and leaving go of the whole Kilkenny situation for a minute) Wexford people feel if they have to leave their county for a service, they might as well go to Dublin. If they all bought into a vision based around Waterford, more might be gained for them (ultimately). But getting that idea going seems to be a bit of a problem.

I know in a previous discussion elsewhere Waterford posters were able to report that the University campaign had managed to persuade Carlow IT to cop on and stop going ‘me too’. I think that’s really the key to change – plus seeing the source of the trouble is the rural mindset that pervades our political culture, not the outlook from Dublin which actually shares many of the same concerns.

K-9

Schuhart wrote:

The money all comes out of one pot, so the more spent on Donegal the less there is elsewhere. If, for the sake of argument, the Government decides to chuck €86 million at regional airports for no particular reason, then that’s €86 million that could have be used to reduce the €100 million portion of the Cork Airport debt left to be paid by the CAA.

But there is a particular reason for giving this money to Donegal/Derry and the reast of the NW.

Schuhart wrote:

The issue is how decisions regarding resource allocation are made and where responsibility should reside. Using ‘Dublin’ as shorthand for ‘decision-makers’ is misleading, as the mindset of those decision makers has little to do with Dublin.

That is in your opinion. It's hard for politicians to ignore the 1.5Ml. people living in Greater Dublin to. All the chat in the run up to the election is about Dublin and the urban vote.

Schuhart wrote:

If you are somewhere that has almost opted for a FF one party state, then can I suggest there certainly is plenty of reason to be called to account for the position the SE finds itself in.

There is plenty of people who will say a "FF one party state" has done us no good. And of course, it works both ways. If its the same TD's after the next election and FG are in power well it will work against us. But maybe not, if in your opinion Donegal/Rural voters have more to blame for the SE than your own elected representatives/Government.

Schuhart wrote:

It’s right to mention if, for the sake of argument, Donegal elects a politician willing to drive Salmon stocks to oblivion just to court temporary popularity with a few voters. I think we need to start assigning responsibility where it rests, which isn't in Dublin.

Completely off topic but I see your point. So if the Minister for Marine was from the SE of course this never would have happened.

K-9

Schuhart wrote:

Them’s is the facts, but for some reason public debate is carried out as if Dublin was in some way subsidised by Mayo rather than the reverse.

I don't think this was suggested on this thread or indeed by the campaign to get funding for a NW motorway/dual carriageway.

Schuhart wrote:

As I see it – not particularly wanting to pontificate, but just suggesting the ‘draining resources’ line really relates to something completely different – the SE problem seems to be a lack of synergy within the region. I’ve a feeling that, for the sake of argument, (and leaving go of the whole Kilkenny situation for a minute) Wexford people feel if they have to leave their county for a service, they might as well go to Dublin. If they all bought into a vision based around Waterford, more might be gained for them (ultimately). But getting that idea going seems to be a bit of a problem.

That is the arguement Donegal/Derry has. The NW including Derry has finally got that synergy of basing around Letterkenny/Derry instead of going to Dublin/Belfast/London etc. It seems you are moaning about the NW getting funds ahead of the SE and saying it's got more to do with a lack of synergy in the SE. We have developed that synergy and a cross border approach. Maybe the SE could learn from our example rather than calling the NW to account for our proactive approach.

What you say the SE should be doing, you are then criticising the NW for actually doing;)

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote:

The NW including Derry has finally got that synergy of basing around Letterkenny/Derry instead of going to Dublin

Strange thing to say for someone so in favour of a motorway to Dublin The Northwest will have a motorway/HQDC to Belfast under current Roads Service plans anyway. Is a high quality link to the second biggest city on the island not enough, given that from there one can continue on DC/Motorway to Dublin anyway.

Schuhart

Seanies32 wrote:

It's hard for politicians to ignore the 1.5Ml. people living in Greater Dublin to.

I'd question that by looking at the reality of the situation. Dublin does lose out, and has nothing like the infrastructure that would be expected in a city of its size. Ditto the regional cities. But, somehow, Charlestown ends up with an airport.

Seanies32 wrote:

It seems you are moaning about the NW getting funds ahead of the SE and saying it's got more to do with a lack of synergy in the SE.

I'm not sure that's quite the message. I'm suggesting that a rural mindset pervades decision making, meaning that regional development funds are not allocated on the basis of what is actually likely to promote regional development. Hence, the regional cities actually lose out compared to less deserving and less useful projects - like Cork Airport losing out to Knock, even though Knock has nothing to offer. However, debate tends to discuss things as if Cork has lost out to Dublin - even if, whatever happens, Dublin gets left with most of the bill.

K-9

murphaph wrote:

Strange thing to say for someone so in favour of a motorway to Dublin The Northwest will have a motorway/HQDC to Belfast under current Roads Service plans anyway. Is a high quality link to the second biggest city on the island not enough, given that from there one can continue on DC/Motorway to Dublin anyway.

The actual quote was

Seanies32 wrote:

That is the arguement Donegal/Derry has. The NW including Derry has finally got that synergy of basing around Letterkenny/Derry instead of going to Dublin/Belfast/London etc. It seems you are moaning about the NW getting funds ahead of the SE and saying it's got more to do with a lack of synergy in the SE. We have developed that synergy and a cross border approach. Maybe the SE could learn from our example rather than calling the NW to account for our proactive approach.

What you say the SE should be doing, you are then criticising the NW for actually doing;)

Are you seriously suggesting that people from Derry/Donegal go to Dublin V. Belfast. By the same argument people from the SE should go to Cork V. Dublin or Dublin V. Cork. Have you actually ever used the Main Derry to Belfast road. It's a disgrace.

Schuhart wrote:

I'm not sure that's quite the message. I'm suggesting that a rural mindset pervades decision making, meaning that regional development funds are not allocated on the basis of what is actually likely to promote regional development. Hence, the regional cities actually lose out compared to less deserving and less useful projects - like Cork Airport losing out to Knock, even though Knock has nothing to offer. However, debate tends to discuss things as if Cork has lost out to Dublin - even if, whatever happens, Dublin gets left with most of the bill.

I do agree that there can be a rural mindset as you outline above and very little cost/benefit analysis seems to be done. With urban sprawl in Dublin nearly on a par with LA;) we also need balanced regional development to. The National Development plan will hopefully go some way to address this.

Victor

This thread is about "North West motorway on agenda", the next mention of Waterford or the South East will attract a ban.

Schuhart

Seanies32 wrote:

I do agree that there can be a rural mindset as you outline above and very little cost/benefit analysis seems to be done. With urban sprawl in Dublin nearly on a par with LA;) we also need balanced regional development to. The National Development plan will hopefully go some way to address this.

Indeed, but policy will only promote regional development if we invest in a few centres to promote scale, rather than a 'something for everyone in the audience' approach like we've seen (for the sake of argument) in the airports sector where tiny airports like Knock have been given a higher priority than Cork.

I suppose I just find this proposal has to climb that credibility gap, because I don't see what Donegal can contribute to regional development as it simply hasn't got the potential to develop a centre of scale.

ardmacha

Derry is the 4th largest city in the country, a place of scale in the Irish context and it should be better connected to Dublin, especially as it has nothing like a direct rail route. Better links to Belfast are also needed, but Belfast doesn't yet have a HQDC/motorway link to Dublin never mind Derry (although they have started clearance work for a proper Newry bypass).

murphaph

Seanies32 wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that people from Derry/Donegal go to Dublin V. Belfast.

No, but are you serioulsy suggesting they need a motorway to get to Dublin and that an upgraded A5/N2 (to say 2+1) couldn't do the job, seeing as the northwest has done such a good job in its own right, without needing to be connected to Dublin?

Seanies32 wrote:

By the same argument people from the SE should go to Cork V. Dublin or Dublin V. Cork. Have you actually ever used the Main Derry to Belfast road. It's a disgrace.

It's going to be upgraded before any motorway to Dublin is built. It has already been announced. The stretch from Dungiven to Derry will be near motorway standard in fact.

K-9

murphaph wrote:

No, but are you serioulsy suggesting they need a motorway to get to Dublin and that an upgraded A5/N2 (to say 2+1) couldn't do the job.

A combination of motorway/dual carriageway/2+1 as you say. Really what the Northern Ireland authorites do is up to them despite Cross border funding. They do seem to favour 2+1 roads. And your post did suggest using the Belfast Raod and on to Dublin.

murphaph wrote:

seeing as the northwest has done such a good job in its own right, without needing to be connected to Dublin?

Where did you get that impression. Of course we are connected to Dublin as is everywhere else.

murphaph wrote:

It's going to be upgraded before any motorway to Dublin is built. It has already been announced. The stretch from Dungiven to Derry will be near motorway standard in fact.

Yes, a good road to Belfast as well as Dublin is needed for the NW. Same as say Sligo, needs good roads to Dublin and Galway.

JupiterKid

I doubt that Donegal merits a direct motorway link to Dublin - its population is too small and dispersed to justify such an expensive project.

On the other hand, what IS urgently required is a dual carriageway link from Derry to Letterkenny (which are very closely linked functionally), with an improved Letterkenny/Lifford road (maybe new 2+1 road design) and an improved A5 through Tyrone. If you look at the roads in Northern Ireland, for decades they were way ahead of the Republic with their M1 and M2 motorways built in the 1960s and early 70s and the other dual carriageways. However, west of the Bann, there were few significant road upgrades and this was done for political reasons. Even today, Derry still does not have a dual carriageway link with Belfast.

The A5 should be dualled in a few places, as should the N2 in Monaghan to allow safe overtaking. Any major upgrading of the N2 between Ashbourne and Ardee (excepting a much needed Slane bypass) would be a waste of money as most Derry and North Donegal bound traffic out of Dublin now uses the M1 as far as Dunleer.

nordydan

http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/news/news-drd/news-drd-141107-major-dual-carriageway.htm

Looks like the entire Northern part (88km) will be upgraded to DC. Route selection will commence soon.