[Sticky]How to start in Aviation...

nobby2k1 · 17-03-2007 06:24PM #1

Hi,
I've had the sudden urge to learn how to fly...not sure if I wanna try airplanes or helicopters....I know it's quite expensive but was wondering what you should be expecting to pay for a lesson, how long the lessons last and how many hours flying do you need and if theres like um...written exams and stuff...
Sorry if they're basic questions, but I did have a look on some sites and couldnt find the answers...

ATB,
Nobby

Chopperdog · 18-03-2007 01:03AM

I am not an expert in this field.

I started my PPL (fixed wing) a few years back and presently have it on hold due to cash constraints.

You must complete a minimum of 45 hours flying time before you can sit your test.

For fixed wing tuition you can expect to pay anywhere from €150 to €200 per hour on a single engine aircraft.

Helicopter tuition is somewhere close to €400 or €500 an hour.

Hopefully someone will be along soon with more specific prices for you.

eirlink · 18-03-2007 01:22AM

Before you do anything, get a medical and eye test by one of the appointed doctors. the medical for ppl is quite thorough and you dont want to spend money on lessons and then fail the medical!

macshadow · 18-03-2007 01:49AM

www.trimflyingclub.com charge 110 euro p/h cessna 172m skyhawk.
You can take a trial flight where you take the controls for a few minutes
and ask all the questions you need answering.
The microlight route is the way to go IMO,some of them can cruise at 130 knots/150 miles p/h and are cheap enough to think of in the same way a car or motorbike.
If you do plan on doing your ppl it might be worth going to the uk where the hours required is 25 as opposed to 45 here.
You can operate one from the back of your house if you have you have enough room.
I don't have a ppl,but some day soon hopefully!
www.nmai.ie www.bmaa.org are good for info.

Owen · 18-03-2007 03:16AM

macshadow wrote:

If you do plan on doing your ppl it might be worth going to the uk where the hours required is 25 as opposed to 45 here.

The PPL requirement in the UK is also 45 hours. There is a very limited form of the PPL (The name escapes me) that you can do after 25 hours, but it won't give you any of the experience you'll need for real flying.

To echo other posters, get an introductory lesson to see if you like it, then do the Medical. For a PPL, you'll need a Class 2 Medical available from some specialised GPs, and various hospitals. Then at least you'll know you can get your various licenses without spending shedloads of money, only to be faced with a brick wall. After about 10 hours of instruction, covering straight and level flight, radio telephony, stalls, and altitude management, your instructor will tell you you're ready for your Solo. You apply to the Irish Aviation Authority, with your Medical, for a SPL License (Student Pilot License) with Solo Permit. Then, you'll do a circuit (Lap of the airfield) on your own. You continue to build hours, pass your theory tests, complete a 150 Mile Cross Country Solo taking in 3 airports, and after 45 hours you *should* be ready to sit your PPL. Some people take longer. I know of one man in Cork on over 100 hours, and still not even remotely capable to sit the test.

Here's the guide to getting a PPL from the Connaught Aero Club, well worth a read :
http://www.connaughtaeroclub.ie/ppl.htm

macshadow · 18-03-2007 03:39AM

My mistake ppl (aeroplane) 45 hours.
ppl(A) 25 hours. uk only.
ppl(A) is microlight.

Aaahem! microlight flying IS real flying and that 25 hours is enough to go buy a microlight and fly on your own although you would need to do a radio course to go cross country.

Owen · 18-03-2007 08:25PM

macshadow wrote:

My mistake ppl (aeroplane) 45 hours.
ppl(A) 25 hours. uk only.
ppl(A) is microlight.

Aaahem! microlight flying IS real flying and that 25 hours is enough to go buy a microlight and fly on your own although you would need to do a radio course to go cross country.

Exactly what I meant, sorry if I worded it to cause offense. You will need a course in RT (Radio Telephony) if you want to go cross-country with your Microlight - that's what I meant about needing the PPL for real flying experience. I hope I didn't upset anyone!

Victor · 18-03-2007 10:31PM

I get the impression that helicopters are substantially more difficult to learn to fly.

macshadow · 18-03-2007 11:36PM

No offence taken ned78. you've a lot more experience than me,i don't even
have an spl yet but have been up in a microlight a couple of times.
I'm saving to do the course in one go but for now i'll have to drool at pics on
the net.

oscarBravo · 19-03-2007 03:38AM

Victor wrote:

I get the impression that helicopters are substantially more difficult to learn to fly.

They are. Airplanes don't have to worry about that rather bizarre regime known as "hover". Apart from that (and it's a pretty large "apart"), the concepts are broadly similar.

positron · 19-03-2007 11:15AM

Excellent thread. From the posts above, PPL with 45 hours of training would cost about 5 to 6K. What next? Is this enough qualification to apply for a commercial pilot job? Any other worthy cause like rescue services etc may be?

Thank you!!

positron · 19-03-2007 11:19AM

k, I googled!

"A CPL requires a minimum of 150 hours experience, with four theory exams and two flight tests. The PPL actually makes up the first part of the CPL."

zuutroy · 19-03-2007 11:33AM

Realistically you'll need to have to a frozen ATPL to get a job with an airline

nobby2k1 · 19-03-2007 11:56PM

thanks for the replies! Am kinda worried now RE: Medical as I'm diabetic

jackofalltrades · 24-03-2007 11:14PM

Nobby2k1 if you like the idea of hovering or flying low to the ground then i'd recommend helicopters, just be aware that they are significantly harder to learn how to fly. Expect to spend about 10 hours to get the knack of hovering, takes a huge amount of determination but it's worth it in the end, I'd try learning on a Hughes 300 rather than a R22 as their a lot more steadier in the air.

gorm · 25-03-2007 09:01PM

positron wrote:

Excellent thread. From the posts above, PPL with 45 hours of training would cost about 5 to 6K. What next? Is this enough qualification to apply for a commercial pilot job? Any other worthy cause like rescue services etc may be?

Thank you!!

This may give a better idea of cost for a PPL(A) in ireland http://www.nfc.ie/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29

positron · 26-03-2007 08:07PM

gorm wrote:

This may give a better idea of cost for a PPL(A) in ireland http://www.nfc.ie/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29

Thanks a million gorm, very useful page!

Now having seen the total figures, I guess I will have to make do with MS Flight Simulator for now, and start saving - for a long long time!!

jmayo · 27-03-2007 04:41PM

If you want to really go professional you will need to do ATPL (14 odd exams) have 1500 hours flying time together with night, multi engine and instrument ratings.
All the hours gained in training for your ratings can contribute towards the 1500 for your unfrozen ATPL.
But you will have to do flight tests for each of your ratings and exams.
Also before going that route make sure you can pass commerical medical which costs a couple of hundred.

Helicopters are harder to fly in sense that unless you get big tubine you need to keep close eye on your three controls (cyclic, collective and pedals), unlike in most GA aeroplanes where you can trim it out to fly no hands no feet.
Also purchasing and running costs of helicopter are much higher than aeroplane.
Also they are thus harder to rent or organise as part of a group share.
Then again helicopters are more fun to fly.
Learn to fly on Robinson since there are generally more of them around and more organisations offering training on them.

You would need to check if British CAA microlight license ok to fly with outside UK? Also their National PPL, which takes less time to get than normal JAA PPL, is not reconginsed outside UK.
Beware lots of pitfalls in aviation licensing regulations.
Also never bulk pay up front for lessons, especially if going overseas.

Owen · 27-03-2007 05:12PM

jmayo wrote:

Also never bulk pay up front for lessons, especially if going overseas.

Too true. A colleague of mine gave Cranfield Aviation money up front for a PPL, and we had to phone every day for 4 months to get money back from them.

gorm · 27-03-2007 05:58PM

positron wrote:

Thanks a million gorm, very useful page!

Now having seen the total figures, I guess I will have to make do with MS Flight Simulator for now, and start saving - for a long long time!!

You're welcome. But if you want to know if flying is for you, you might want to take some trial flights with these to see how you get on.

microlights : http://www.ultraflight.ie
Gliding: http://www.dublinglidingclub.ie/

cheaper than ordinary GA, great fun but no good if you want to go commercial

jmayo · 27-03-2007 06:27PM

Does anyone know the rates in Cork at the moment ?
Also is there still the Antonov AN-2 down there ?
Really would love a go in one of them, of course even if the fuel/oil bill is enormous. Biggest thing you can fly on a ppl as far as I know?

whupass · 28-03-2007 07:35PM

ok so the jist that i got is that for a commercial license you need to be loaded!!

you need 45 hours and a test and medical for your personal license
then you need a commercial license which is 1500 hours???? so 150€ x 1500= €225,000?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Ruu_Old · 28-03-2007 07:39PM

Thread stuck. Good ideas and links, keep them coming chums.

jmayo · 29-03-2007 11:31AM

Ok the 1500 hrs is for an unfrozen ATPL, which is what your airlines ideally are looking for, or as damm near as they can find.
The actual commerical license requires much less hours (JAA CPL is 150 hours-part of which is instrument, solo cross country, night) together with a flight test and I think a few written exams.
But (there is always a but) you really need multi-engine and IR ratings to get commerical work, otherwise you are limited to flying something upto an Antonov AN-2 and purely in VFR conditions.
Alos to fly jets you are tlaking about getting a rating for that type, i.e. you must do the training and pass the checkrides on a A330, MD11, B737, B747 etc.
This applies at much lower level on helicopters i.e. 206, 212, EC135 etc.

And the answer is yes, you do need lots of money.
You can be lucky if you live in a country with a proper military and air force that have the equipment and opportunities to offer the cheaper hour building.
But (another one here) the JAA etc still make military guys take flight tests and exams since the military do not offer these qualifications. They have their own internal systems and ratings.

Owen · 29-03-2007 11:44AM

You can also opt to teach in the latter part of your ATPL Studies. Each hour your Student pays for, counts as an hour in your log book too!

jmayo · 30-03-2007 09:44AM

Ah but Ned, you need an FI rating and ideally a flight school that has lots of students and good weather to do series quick hour building as instructor.
So to do serious hour building you would probably need to be US, South Africa.
Florida most days would have 6/8 hours flyable, ok allow couple of hours for afternoon thunderstorm. And this would be almost 7 days a week, 364 days a year.
How many flyable days would Ireland have in an avaerage year?
Also options are glider tuggie or parachute club pilot.
Again you would need to be in full time everyday operations to really do serious quick hour building.

Owen · 30-03-2007 09:47AM

jmayo wrote:

Ah but Ned, you need an FI rating and ideally a flight school that has lots of students and good weather to do series quick hour building as instructor.

Obviously! But is a way to build hours cheaply, and get paid a wage to do it. Most of the Flight Instructors at the School I use are doing just that, working their way to working with an Airline, and teaching in the process.

Victor · 31-03-2007 04:12PM

jmayo, in Ireland we have long summer evenings that aren't necessarily available in other places.

jmayo · 02-04-2007 10:19AM

Victor,
we may have long summer evening but trust me that does not make up for the days that are unflyable. The number of times I have not been able to fly due to rain, low cloud, too strong wind etc.
We do not have the weather of Spain, Florida or South Africa.
You are almost guaranteed flyable weather in these locations.
We cannot say that.
That is why people go to these locations to hour build. I have known people fly 5 or 6 hours a day, 7 days a week in Florida. I know that may not be ideal since may be too intensive.

pclancy · 13-05-2007 11:37PM

<mod edit> I've moved this out of a locked thread (with a slight edit) as it's an excellent rundown on getting started in a career in aviation, and will at least be read here.

Roundy

</mod edit>
NiSMo as has been said try and find out as much as you can by meeting people, reading up on the lifestyle and doing a couple of introductary lessons at your local airfield. www.pprune.org is a good pilots forum, have a look in the wanabee section.

Try the stickies at the top of this forum as well....

Grab some pilots magazines from Easons or visit http://www.flyinginirelandmagazine.com/ as well....

Below is taken from Irish Aviation Authoritys site www.iaa.ie

How do I become a pilot?

The Personnel Licensing Office receives a substantial number of queries from individuals, career-guidance-teachers and in particular concerned parents whose children wish to embark on a career as a pilot, all seeking the answer to the same question “How do I become a pilot?” The answer below is neither technical nor exhaustive but aims to provide a general answer to the question for you and offers some points that you may wish to consider as you embark on this career.

The first point that the Personnel Licensing Office strongly recommends is that before you “part with a penny” that you should consider undergoing an Initial Class 1 Medical Examination. You will be required to undergo this medical examination prior to your flight test but all too often it has occurred in the past that candidates have failed this medical examination having completed a substantial amount of their flight and ground school training at great personal expense. Therefore, it is strongly recommended that you undergo this medical examination at the outset to ensure that when the time comes for your flight test and the grant of the appropriate licence that you been deemed medically “fit” at Class 1 level. This medical examination will remain valid for 12 months if you are under 40 years of age and for 6 months if you are over 40 years of age. Periodic medical examinations are required to keep your licence current. You may undergo an Initial Class 1 Medical Examination at the AeroMedical Centre in the Mater Private Hospital. Click here for more details including the cost of medical examinations in the AeroMedical Centre.

Now that you are “fighting fit” you will now be in a position to source an FTO (Flight Training Organisation) best meets your needs. FTO’s will have packages that they can send you detailing both the process and the cost involved. Click here for a complete list of IAA approved FTO’s.

If you intend going abroad to undergo your training another point worth considering is the importance of ensuring that the FTO you choose offers JAA (Joint Aviation Authorities) approved courses leading to the grant of a JAA licence. This will ensure that if and when you decide to return home that your licence will be recognised and accepted throughout all JAA member states in Europe. This is particularly important if you decide, for example, to go to the USA to undergo your training as when you return home you don’t want to be in a position whereby you have to repeat some or all of your training for the grant of a JAA licence.

Finally from time to time some airlines may advertise for new recruits to undergo pilot training programmes although this has become rarer in recent times. Such advertisements usually appear in the daily newspapers. It may be worth considering contacting airlines both at home and abroad directly yourself for more information.

Useful Websites

www.jaa.nl Joint Aviation Authorities – Visiting this website you will be able to familiarise yourself with the aims and objectives of the Joint Aviation Authorities and the importance of acquiring a JAA licence.
www.srg.caa.co.uk UK Civil Aviation Authority – In this website you will find a list of JAA FTO’s approved by the UK Civil Aviation Authority. The UK have approved FTO’s in the USA offering JAA courses.
www.faa.gov USA Federal Aviation Administration – The FAA is the equivalent of the IAA in the USA. This website provides extensive information on pilot training but once again please bear in mind that if you choose a school in the USA make sure that they are offering JAA courses.
www.military.ie Visiting this website will give you information on careers in the Air corps

If its your dream to do it, go for it! Just find out as much as you can before you commit to expensive training and be sure its what you want to do with your life...wish I could!

pclancy · 18-05-2007 08:36AM

Heres a handy list of flying clubs in Ireland....

http://flyinginireland.com/flyingclubs.htm

[Sticky]How to start in Aviation...

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